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I've been confused by what we all call Hypomelanistic Hondurans. I've seen all kinds of different variations of “Hypo Hondos” over the years.
I’ve seen Hypos:
…that look like the normal wild phenotype but have cleaner colors (less tipping).
…that have reduction in the black band thickness, but otherwise look normal.
…that look lighter out of the egg, but turn dark as they age (looking normal as an adult).
…that look purple/light gray out of the egg, but turn dark gray as they age.
Combos and variations of the above, all the way up to ultra light hypos or Extremes.

From what I’ve researched, the first Hypomelanistic Hondo was produced by Bill and Kathy Love.
The original (Het. Hypo) male that started the Hypo line also started the Tangerine Dream Line. This male was incorrectly labeled a Coral snake and was purchased from an importer/exporter (from Honduras) in late 1984 or early 1985. Here is the original male, picture taken a few months after it was purchased, picture date March 1985:

This male is exceptionally clean for a wild type Honduran (at least from the Hobby Hondos I’ve seen).

They also started their Tangerine Dream line from the same Het Hypo male.
The Tangerine Dream was characterized by almost equal banding, between the two normally yellow and red bands, while both bands also showing similar tangerine color.
The first Hypo ever produced was from breeding this original (Het. Hypo) male back to one of his female offspring.
Here are two from that pairing:

This picture represents a Tangerine Dream and one of the first (if not the first) Hypomelanistic Honduran ever produced.

Now starts the theory part!

Over the years of selective breeding, the Hypo gene has been refined and mixed.
Due to this mixing, I think many people produced very clean or lighter looking offspring from the Tangerine Dream line (or other lines) and assumed it was a true simple recessive Hypo.
Then by taking those cleaner looking offspring and breeding them back to each other…the line was refined over the years. This successive line breeding did gradually (with some jumps of greatness at times) produce some polymorphic “hypo” hondos.
I’m sure after a few generations they were as light, or even lighter than the first Hypo that Bill and Kathy love produced. However, I think it was not just a simple recessive morph, but a polymorphic trait.

That’s just one of many possibilities that could have happened which lead me to my main thought. Most “Hypo” Hondos are Polymorphic and not just a simple recessive morph.

Why do I think many of the “Hypo” hondos are polymorphic? Basically, because of what I’ve seen…and many internal debates!
Example 1) Hypo to Hypo breeding produces a normal looking offspring.

The pairing:

The offspring:

The picture above is an example of 3 female tricolor "hypos" that I produced in 2008. One of the females looks like a normal.

When has anyone bred a Honduran that’s Amel to another Amel or Hypoerythristic to another Hypoerythristic and not produced all of the same recessive morph? ( I’ve heard of someone that’s bred Amels or Snows and not gotten all Amels or Snows…but I’ll believe that when I see pictures! If anyone has some proof…I’d love to see it.)

Example 2) Hypo to Hypo breeding produces an extreme looking offspring.
I know this has and does occur, but I do not have any photographs to show, so maybe one of you guys can post some?

Example 3) Extreme to Extreme does NOT produce all Extremes.
Same as Example 2, can someone post some pictures of this? Doug?

When I started thinking about the above examples, trying to make sense of it all, genetically…and that’s when it just came to me. The outcomes (Examples 2 & 3) are very similar to double or even triple het breedings.

I’ve also noticed that males (within the same clutch) are often the lightest (hypos or ghosts) in the group. Which in my mind, the male allele is just another flipped switch “on”, on the polymorphic cascade for the reduction in melanin.

So, what do you expert breeders and geneticists think, make sense?

-Rusty

A special thanks to Bill and Kathy Love for giving me some great history of the first Hypo Hondo and allowing me to use their GREAT photographs!

Let me get home, grab a beer and start working some genetics in my head (and on paper). I'll report back later with my thoughts!

-Cole

Here we go:

To begin with, I believe, based on what I've seen and the ratios of hatchlings produced, that we are dealing with two, and possibly three different traits under the name "hypomelanism". These, in my understanding, are "traditional hypomelanism", "extreme", and "mega".

"Traditional" hypomelanism is a simple recessive trait. These animals, I believe, can be distinguished from the other traits (when it is the ONLY trait present) by the normally pigmented eyes. That said, I am also convinced that, like with any trait, there is a certain amount of polymorphism in the "quality" and deposition of pigment within this trait. There will be some "low end" traditional hypos that are barely distinguishable from wild-type animals, and there will be "high end" examples that rival some "extreme" and "mega" animals.

With the "extreme" and "mega" line animals, I think we're seeing something different. Many animals that we call "hypomelanistic", probably display (or at least carry) one of these other forms of melanin reduction. This could simply be due to the practice of breeding all "hypos" as one entity, or due to some form of gene linkage. From what I've seen, both of these lines (extreme and mega) display a red coloration to the eyes, signaling more of a pigment production problem, which alludes to a form of amelanism.

OK, so to keep this short, I'd like to end on the notion that the task at hand is to separate these potentially different genetic traits from one another, and test breed them to confirm or deny them actually being distinct. That will require groups of "mega" animals that don't carry "traditional hypo" or "extreme" genes, "traditional hypo" animals that don't carry "mega" or "extreme" genes, and "extreme" animals that don't carry "mega" or "traditional hypo" genes.

Thoughts?

-Cole

Cole, I would say you nailed it man exceptttttttttt,
You said to isolate the genes like the mega and that just really can't be done cause whatever it really is it is also allele with the other hypo lines.
The Mega stuff all started from triples hets produced in (00 and 01) from Dunham.

So no matter what they are all going to be at least het for the "other" lines.
And the extreme line from Falcon also came from a normal hypo and het from Dunham...

They are all allele so to seperate them is almost impossible but I am trying as we speak but I am sure it wil be many years before I can honestly say that this or that animals is A,B OR C.

L8r Shannon

p.s. I have some het for nothing pure hondurensis from animals imported over 20 years ago and thats what I am going to use to try and seperate out all these hypo genes.

and I agree with you 100%!

However, like Shannon said...since these all came from the same lines...I think it would take YEARS to isolate the genes.

Unless you know some one that has Mega hets?

-Rusty

I know it'll take some time to separate out the traits. The interesting thing will be to see what comes out of the breeding of an "extreme" (that doesn't carry the traditional hypo trait) to a "traditional hypo" (that doesn't carry the "extreme", and so on.

I also wonder if the traits aren't actually allelic, but the reason we see all "hypos" (traditional hypo and extremes mixed) in "extreme" X "traditional hypo" breedings is because the majority of "extremes" are also carrying the "traditional hypo" trait, and many "traditional hypos" are carrying the "extreme" trait these days? Of course, they could be allelic (alternate forms of one gene), linked, or even additive. Lots of cool stuff that could be going on there.

-Cole

Yeah Rusty,......there is some strong credence to your theory in my opinion. That would explain some of the different phenotypes and outcomes we all see.

Yes, Extreme hypo x Extreme hypo doesn't necesarily mean all extreme hypos for sure. I get a variation of hypos within a given clutch as well. All are very high quality hypos, but not all extremes as this photo depicts. Some are nice light hypos with darker eyes, some are ultra-lights with ruby-red eyes, and others are full-blown best of the best extremes!

~Doug

two of the best extremes of this years clutch....

last years clutch, but in heavy shed mode unfortunately.....

and of course the best male hold-back from last year's clutch....

A good example of two adult hypo phenotypes, in that this female is also a so-called "hypo", and has a fair amount of tipping, while the male hypo below has very dark rings, but is EXTREMELY clean, and no scale tipping....

tipped female....

male with no tipping, very vivid and clean....

Then of course you have the tricolor hypos that are reduced in the black pigment itself, but very heavily tipped as adults....

Anyway, your theory on the hypo gene is very interesting indeed Rusty!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

...without the flash.It is difficult to get a realistic interpretation of the true colors with the flash effect.
Thanks-

Polymorphism would explain a lot. And your line of thinking is pretty novel, at least to me.

Rusty wrote:
I’ve also noticed that males (within the same clutch) are often the lightest (hypos or ghosts) in the group.

I have a few hypo hondurans, but I haven't really done anything w/ them. But I do have a number of hypo syspila, and have seen varying degrees of what I would call a hypo animal.
I also have noticed in some of my hypo syspila clutches that many times the males are brighter then the females.

Here is a pretty good example. Hypo male from the same clutch as the female below.

I'd say that the colors/saturation in these photos is very close to how the animals look in hand, and I think you can see how much different the two clutch mates look from each other as far as the hypomelinisim is concerned.

Now I don't know if I can help out any further w/ your hypothesis, but I can tell you I'll be watching this thread to see what others have to say. And think you have asked some interesting questions.

You deserve a beer for your mental gymnastics. ☺

-Dell

I'm also looking for other's input...thanks for your comments and examples.

The male gene seems to have a small amount of influence on the reduction of melanin. I've also observed this influence in Cal. Kings.

-Rusty

I think the variation stems from the hypo gene itself, which reduces the dark pigment to various degrees, not completely eliminates it like amelanism. Even in corns the hypo gene can be expressed to differing degrees, from almost normal looking individuals to extremely light individuals, even in the same clutch. And like corns, there may be more than one strain of hypomelanism at work in the hondos. Also, adding the hypo gene to normal lines bred for reduced tipping, banding, etc. will also probably produce better looking hypo examples due to the line bred reduction of the black in the normal lines. Its like painting a wall IMO. Much easier painting a lighter colored wall white than a darker colored one. It takes way more coats to cover up the dark color and you can still eventually end up with bleed through.

like corns, there may be more than one strain of hypomelanism at work

I agree! If that is true, that means that more than one gene is at work...which is, in my way of thinking defines polymorphic/polygentic/line breeding.

Also, adding the hypo gene to normal lines bred for reduced tipping,

Call the clean version Hypo - Type A (Tangerine Dream for example, the darker one in the following photograph)

banding,
Hypo - Type B (This one below is both a Type A and Type B among others as well, but I'm using it to illustrate the banding look.)

Note: This female was from an Extreme to Extreme pairing, but was NOT an extreme herself (RIP).

etc.
Call "etc.", for discussion sake, a true Hypo - Type C (The lighter one in the following photograph)

will also probably produce better looking hypo examples due to the line bred reduction of the black in the normal lines.

Exactly! A Hondo that is triple recessive (or more) for all types referenced above will be a pinbanded ultralight hypo or an Extreme. (Please reference Doug's post for a photo example).

It takes way more coats to cover up the dark color and you can still eventually end up with bleed through.

Yep, each dark coat removed is another type of Hypo gene (or layer) at work...in my opinion. The more dark coats or layers you remove the lighter the Hondo appears.

Thanks for your input.

-Rusty

Good thoughts and great post.

I think what is clear is that hypomelanism is a recessive mutation. But, genes rarely if ever work in isolation from the influence of other genes in the genome. This was recognized by one of the fathers of genetics (Sewall Wright), he said that it was stupid to "treat genes as if they had constant effects, favorable or unfavorable, irrespective of the rest of the genome".

In genetics we refer this as epistasis, which is just genetic jargon for genes (or alleles) modifying how other genes (or alleles) are expressed. I think this is what is responsible for the variation we see in the degree of hypomelanism between individuals. Many of the other genes in an individual can influence how much melanin is present in the skin. For example, if you have some individuals that have a collection of genes which lead to "clean and light" animals that are not technically hypo (because they have fully functioning genes), it makes sense that if crossed into a hypo line you would end up with really light and clean hypos. This is something we know and do all the time in selective breeding.

So, while hypomelanism a recessive mutation it is definitely the case that the degree of pigmentation and the pattern it takes in the skin are polymorphic.

Vinny
-----
�There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.� -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

100% agree.

After reading my post again...I think I didn't make it clear that I do think there is at least one simple recessive Hypo gene out there.

My main point of contention was that when we get super forms, like Extremes for example, they are polymorphic Hypos not just simple recessive.

Thanks Vinny for your input!

-Rusty

Great post Rusty. For many years I have been saying prety much the same thing.The term hypo is used so loosly andything with reduction is a hypo?LOL....

I do believe that they are all recessive within there own line.Its when you take one line and cross it to another line and produce normals that are actually double het but look like low end hypos where it gets all screwed up.

in (08) I took my Alloway tri-colored "hypo" and bred him to my falcon extreme hypo and out of five god eggs that hatched only one animal was hypo.I guess he wasn't a real hypo but his mega bloodline made him look hypo and he was just het for the other line.
I guess time will tell and it was the only breeding I ever got from that male before he died in hibernation the next fall.

Here are a couple pics just for fun.

father (Jeff Alloway produced ("tri-color hypo"from triple het parents.
(img)http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/803shanmegamale5.jpg(/img)

mother extreme falcon hypo.
(img)http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/803falcon_extreme_female_adult.jpg(/img)

clutch shot.
(img)http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/803extreme_clutch.jpg(/img)

here he is a couple years later.
(img)http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/803extrme_x_mega_hypo.jpg(/img)

woops, lets try the pics again.LOL.....

father.

mother.

clutch.

couple years later.

And for fun here is the first hypo I ever had.I bought this girl in (99) from Dwayne Richards and she was the best you could get at the time.LOL......

L8r Shannon

A few questions:

Was this the first breeding year for the female Extreme?

If not, what did you pair her with the year before?

Do you still have the "hypo" from that clutch?

Do you have any females from that clutch?(I think I already asked you this question before?)

Lastly, have you ever bred a Het Hypo to Het Hypo and got an Extreme? (I know this has happened with the Mega line.)

Thanks for your input and photographs!

-Rusty

Yes, it was her first clutch ever and his too.Yes,I stil have the hypo I posted it below the clutch shot.
I have never hatched out a extreme from two het hypos but I am sure it can happen.
I sold the rest of the clutc to one guy and he lost them all in a rack fire.

L8r

Is that Hypo you kept back a male then?

-Rusty

p.s. as far as the males usually looking better that is true pretty muc across the board with al Lampro's.
Back in the early to mid 90's I bred hundreds if not a thousand campbelli and I could usually sex them by site right out of the egg just due to tipping etc....
And I can still look at any random adult and sex it by site and I am about 95% right on it.
There is always a exception though and I have been fooled a couple times.
Look at this animal.Full grown adult hypo and I would swear it was a male except she laid perfect clutches for me for several years.

L8r

Back in the early to mid 90's I bred hundreds if not a thousand campbelli and I could usually sex them by site right out of the egg just due to tipping etc....
And I can still look at any random adult and sex it by site and I am about 95% right on it.

hmmmm, FYI, that's a honduran dude, not a campbelli.

Ha, sorry bout that. Please return to your regularly scheduled recessive hypo program.

-Dell

Yes, I know what it is but I was useing the campbelli as a example.
I was told many years ago that the tipping in females is used for them to be able to get warmer faster in order to sustain a better body temp for eggs???Who knows....

L8r Shannon

Yes, I know what it is but I was useing the campbelli as a example.

I know you know Shannon, jus phawkin wid ya.

Nice photo of you as Naja S. brownisi.

-Dell

Hypo Corn Snakes are extraordinary variable - some look like "clean" normals, while others look like dark-eyed albinos. I think it's just the nature of the hypo gene. Like Shannon said, I've seen a tendency for male Hondurans (whether hypo or not) to be lighter in color (or have less tipping) than females.

Tim

Third Eye

Hopefully I have more data to substantiate my theories in the future.

Thanks for your post.

-Rusty

>You've expressed the conundrum well, Rusty. A couple thoughts.

In all my hypo breedings, starting with the first hypos released from the Love's collection, plus some hets from them, and for many years after, I never got any results that contradicted the hypo as a simple recessive. That would have been a big deal, and would have been noted far and wide.

Hondurans in the wild vary dramatically. In "wild"type" (non-hypo) hondos there will be animals ranging from very light to very dark: Once these phenotypes are altered by the hypo gene, you're going to end up with very light and very dark hypos, it seems to me.

Discussion of "cleanness" and tipping and band width & etc. is irrelevant, imho: those are pattern variations, not variations of melanin deposited into areas that would be black on a normal or wild-type.

Imagine a line of hondos bred for "hypermelanism" in the pattern sense--a line of hondos where the black bands were wide, and tipping abundant. Maybe an extreme example from that line would be almost entirely black. But breed two generations to produce the hypo of that snake, and it would be almost entirely gray or brown. So pattern doesn't matter.

I'm maybe out of line with this thought, but: if you have two hondos that look like normals, like the two in your photo, and they produce all normal looking offspring, I'd question whether the original identification of one or the other or both of the parents was in error. That just seems logical.

Lastly, it would be great to test breed some "pure" megas or extremes. But I'd like anyone to show me how they expect to get such animals with which to begin that experiment.

of explaining my thoughts in my first post.

I believe the Love's first Hypo was a simple recessive gene. I also know that you took what they started and ran with it!

I also think most/many of these Hypo traits are allele...since most if not all originated from that first imported male.

Discussion of "cleanness" and tipping and band width & etc. is irrelevant, imho: those are pattern variations, not variations of melanin deposited into areas that would be black on a normal or wild-type.

I agree the cleanness, band width and pattern don't have anything to do with the Love's version of Hypo gene. However, I think others were confused when they had the "Tangerine Dream Line" knowing the potential of producing a hypo and considered a "cleaner" or cleanest individual of a new clutch a Hypo (or if a pinbanded individual was produced as well).
Just like a pattern variation, I think this was the beginning of a new polymorphic Hypo line, due to generations of selective breeding by what others considered(sometimes incorrectly) a true Hypo.

Like you stated...you'll have wild types that range from light to dark...so if you select the lightest ones to hold back and to breed...isn't that line breeding for the look of a polymorphic hypo?

I'm maybe out of line with this thought, but: if you have two hondos that look like normals, like the two in your photo, and they produce all normal looking offspring, I'd question whether the original identification of one or the other or both of the parents was in error. That just seems logical.

Exactly! However, both Hondurans that I have I would consider Hypo...they both were VERY light as neonates and still had a dark gray color as adults. The female tricolor I got directly from you. Which in light of my recent thoughts...I'm glad I got the bulk of my Honduran stock from you even if it was second and third hand.
Given that you obtained your stock from the Love's which was traced back to an importer/exporter from Honduras means a lot to me considering how mixed I think the general "hobby hondo" could potentially be now.

I'm still working with this stuff and I hope to share more in the coming years...hopefully with some help from a few friends!

Thanks for your inputs Terry!

-Rusty

>>k...so if you select the lightest ones to hold back and to breed...isn't that line breeding for the look of a polymorphic hypo?

I think this gets to the crux of the matter: it all depends on definitions.

"hypo" when used in the broadest sense of "reduced melanin" (whether pattern or pigment, "polymorphic", or line-bred) would mean that ANY hondo that's lighter than another hondo that can be set beside it, is a hypo. (and the other one, by extension, is hypermelanistic, because it's darker). If you think that's too extreme, then let's say any hondo lighter than the norm/median is a hypo, and any darker ones are hypermelanistics. When the argument is reduced this far, imho it becomes meaningless.

I think the challenge is to determine
1) what the extremes and megas are--it might take DNA testing to determine this, or tissue analysis. Not likely to come soon!
and
2) figure out the method of inheritance. As i said in my previous post, if there are multiple hypo morphs, they've been mixed up so much i can't currently see a way to isolate them for testing.

So how to explain "regular" hypos and their variation, plus extremes, plus megas?

Suppose the original Love recessive hypo gene isn't one that always reduces melanin by x % (let's say 50%, for discussion) but rather, one that reduces melanin 40-60%. (Not all red heads are the same shade of red, right?!)

That (combined with wild-type variation in amounts of melanin) would account for "normal" hypos of varying lightness.

As those hypos are bred to each other, you're eventually gonna get some that are the result of "40%" x "40%" animals, and they're gonna be lighter. And so on. In other words, it's logical to expect some specimens of the morph to become lighter and lighter in subsequent generations. That would also account for why the extremes and megas have all popped up in clutches tracing back to "regular" hypos.

Yeah, I agree with the idea that a light-colored, reduced black snake is often referred to as a "hypo" without ever determining if it's a simple recessive genetic trait or simply a light-colored normal. I don't think there's any way around that unless the terminology is changed to differentiate an inherited recessive gene vs. a light-colored individual.

I also think vjl4's idea of "ultra" or "super" hypo being the product of epistasis (the hypo gene "unlocking the door" for further pigmentation differences to be expressed) has some merit. If "ultra" or "super" or "mega" hypos cannot be produced in the predictable "simple recessive" way that everyday hypos can and hypos are needed to make these morphs, the results of epistasis could very well be at work.

Tim

It can get even more complicated. Imagine that the Love Hypo reduces pigment 40%, just 40%, no more no less. But, some other allele X that is a different gene from the Love Hypo increases pigment 15% (or something).

Now, imagine you breed a homozygous allele X to a homozygous Love Hypo. Then you have double hets. Breed those together and you'll get hypos, hypos het for allele X, and hypos homo for allele X, with phenotypes that are 40% reduced pigment, 25% reduced pigment, and 5% reduced pigment.

Now imagine there is some gene Y that reduces pigment but is also not the same as the Love Hypo gene. It just turns down pigment production by 25%, but only when it is mixed with Love Hypo. Then with the double het breeding (like above but with allele Y switched in for allele X), you'll get hypo animals animals that are 40%, 65%, and 90% reduced pigment. However, with allele Y is all on its own in a wildtype background you won't see pigment reduction in either the homo or het allele Y individuals. Kind of sounds like a hypo, mega, extreme.

Whether this was fun, or headache inducing, is up to you all!
Vinny
-----
�There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.� -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

All this math to break down what a breeder can try and achieve in his/her breedings reminds me of a funny story when I was in High School football.
We were all going over plays on the chalk board w/ the coach, you know, X's and O's where to go and what holes the offensive line would try and open up for the running backs, that kind of boring stuff, when our defensive team captain interrupts and says "Coach can we stop playing tic tac toe and get out there and hit somebody?"

That still bust me up when I think about it.

But the math is important to know, just like the chalk board plays, if you're trying to achieve a finale goal. But it can get boring for some people.

That's all I've got, sorry for the interruption, later.

-Dell

You calling me boring? Cause if you are we can take this outside!!!

Vinny
-----
�There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.� -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

No way Vinny. I'd never infer that to you, and I would never want to "step out side" with a Geneticist. You might force me to wear a pocket protector. ☺

I always enjoy your posts, you have come in on some post in the past, and really cleared up some arguments. Always good to see you post over here on the milk forum.

Peace out,✌

-Dell

statistically!

What you've described is just one possible outcomes of what I think is really going on!

What I'd like to see is a Het to Het breeding produce a VERY light hypo...call it a Mega or Extreme.

Now that would be good stuff!

Thanks again for everyone's input...these kind of questions is what still gets me excited about Hondos...even if they aren't so popular to most...I love them!

-Rusty

I get too excited sometimes!

hahahahaha!

"I get too excited sometimes!"

Too funny man!..HAHAHAAA!!!

~Doug

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

LOVE IT!

I knew you would get a good laugh from that man!..LOL!

~Doug

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com