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I've heard many times that the Sulfurs originated from Tampa. Can anyone give some more detailed info? What did the original animal look like. Mostly what we see today are the Lavenders, I'm interested in the raw Sulfur Kings. One thing I find funny, is the Tampa is a huge importer of Molten Sulfur. I know cause I have been transporting it for over 15 years. There are 4 large facilities which store and dispense molten Sulfur to be used by the Phosphate(Fertilizer) industry. Feel free to post any pics of Normal Sulfurs you might have.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I think the line was started - or at least popularized, by Len Krysko. He had brooksi that he called 'school bus yellow'.

There may have been others working with that or similar lines but he is who I think of in regards to founding the Sulfur line.

In recent years there have been so few breeders working with them, it seem nearly impossible to get quality Sulfurs. Brandon Osborne had the best looking line that I've personally ever seen.

Hope that helps some..

byron.d

Yeah agree with you there. Brandon has some killer ones or had, not sure if he still breeds them? Bob S who posts here from time to time has one of Brandons offspring and it is a smoker too. I just wonder what the first ones looked like? If I found an animal that looked like Brandons in the wild I would do flips, lol. I have to wonder if it was line bred, or even selectively crossed with some other floridana to look like that?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Here is a Hillsborough Co. male that was produced by Lindsay Pike. Its just 2 years old and has some changing to do yet.

>>Here is a Hillsborough Co. male that was produced by Lindsay Pike. Its just 2 years old and has some changing to do yet.

That's a nice looking King. Thanks for the pics.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I do not think the original sulfurs were brooki in origin. I'm not much on the actual counties but I think they were from the mid-golf coast, perhaps Pinellas or Hillsborough County.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

>>I do not think the original sulfurs were brooki in origin. I'm not much on the actual counties but I think they were from the mid-golf coast, perhaps Pinellas or Hillsborough County.
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>>�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson
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>>WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I've always heard they were from Tampa which is Hilsborrough County, but some people call parts of Pinellas, Tampa also.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I believe that Lindsay Pike may still have the pure form of this lineage. I would like to find some that lack the brooks or lavender influence as well. Just a nice killer FL king is increasingly hard to come by.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

"Just a nice killer FL king is increasingly hard to come by."

Boy is that the truth Tony! I lived in Miami for about 10 years and I did find some, but not many. Even the Cane fields aren't as productive as they once were. I've seen some of the Pinellas and Hillsborrough kings, but they were not being called Sulfurs. I am curious as what the first WC Sulfurs may have looked like?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

"I've seen some of the Pinellas and Hillsborrough kings, but they were not being called Sulfurs"

But you have to keep in mind that all the kings from that area are nothing even CLOSE to being "sufurs" though, and some even quite "but-ugly" as a matter of fact..LOL!. Just like all kings from south Florida are definitely not the light/pale brooksi morph either.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

True quite often the phenotype (broadly used) we associate with a locality has little to do with what the actual population looks like because the physical appearance is largely a contrivance of captive-propagation. OBX kings are an example of this. 90% of wild specimens I've found look quite similar to mainland kings found along any given escarpment.

Anyway as I recall one or two animals from mid-gulf coast area that were exceptional were line-bred to create the sulfur line. Anything that claims to be sulfur should be able to demonstrate pedigree to these original animals but with all the multi morph crossing going on I'm not sure how much influence the lineage actually has.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Yes, I would certainly have to agree with that. Now I do know it is said the true Outer Banks king phenotype is basically only found from about Buxton on south through Cape Hatteras and Ocracoke on south all the way down to Cape Lookout. That also is a spread of three counties, but the one that is most renowned and ever in literature seems to be Dare County, but Hyde and Carteret are also prime habitat, but are hardly ever mentioned compared to the noted Dare County that some of the original animals were collected in.

Granted, there are some similar looking one's in many other areas around there, and even some mainland forms have been found that are fairly heavily speckled too. Maybe even devastating storms throughout history have even contributed to this as well...who the heck really knows??..LOL!

Anyway, I didn't really want to change the entire flow of things away from the discussion of "sulfur" kings, but just wanted to touch on some of what you mentioned about the "sticticeps".

From what I have read about them from several individuals that have seen a good number of them in their wild habitat there, the one's from the areas I described were all for the most part fairly to heavily speckled. Are these the very same areas you saw them in too?.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

All the ones I've seen are from south of Frisco which is on the extreme south side of Buxton. Most are not heavly speckled and some are not speckled at all. Also I've seen kings from the mainland of Currituck that are heavily speckled. I don't concider these or mainland Dare or Hydde kings to be OBX kings. IMO "OBX king" is a local monicure not a phenotype.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Yeah, I totally agree that the mainland Dare and Hyde county animals are not be considered Outer Banks, or the Carteret county mainland animals either. I was merely stating that those three counties all connect east into the Outer Banks chain of Islands as this area map depicts.

But also, my common sense tells me that over the course of thousands of years(and recently too), genuine Outer Banks kings have indeed made it to the mainland via many different modes over the course of time, and there is no doubt that there are some very speckled snakes here and there on the mainland too as you mentioned.

I would not have thought that so many specimens south of Frisco or Buxton would have no speckling though....you say 90% of them you have seen there aren't speckled?? I know many youngsters can start out not very speckled, or even not at all until they start maturing a bit, but I would have never thought that high of a percentage had no speckling, in adults anyway. Carl Bartlett has found some so speckled they were practically a solid speckled snake similar to a patternless goini or meansi.

I understand Shackelford Bank just south of Cape Lookout just past the southernmost area of the Core Banks have some normal "mainland" patterned specimens there along with some that are speckled.

anyway, interesting stuff!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I think what I intended to say was that a high percentage do not display levels of speckling that I wouldn't expect to see elsewhere. I've only found about 20 so my sample size is a bit small but I would say 80 - 90% look like animals I might find in Virginia Beach, and yes a few showed none at all.

That said, the probability of finding speckling in the OBX population is indeed greater! In contrast I've caught literally hundreds of VA easterns along Pungo Ridge and I would say well less than 10% showed good amounts of speckling.

My point was just that selection among breeders has significantly increased both the frequency and amount of speckling in the captive population of OBX kings. This is not a direct parallel of what we see with sulfur kings but its an example of how observations of the captive populations begins to skew our expectations of the wild populations.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

In my experience this is a pretty normal trait in some Eastern king populations. In certain parts of South Georgia and North Florida I've found that 20-50% of kings will show a noticeable amount of speckling, with some being very heavily speckled. These could probably be selectively bred in the same manner OBX kings have.

That is true. And of course the speckling in Eastern's can be from a few totally different influences too. In the southern Georgia range there would certainly be some goini-type influence in some individuals. And of course there are some specimens from extreme southwest Alabama that also display some surprisingly textbook interband speckling due to the influence of holbrooki from their extreme southeastern intergrade range.

Then of course more east in northern Florida/southern Georgia, they would have more floridana influence.

It's funny how certain animals can look very similar to others, yet they can be VERY different from one another for very different reasons. Just another reason that nature is so darn interesting!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

On the other hand, some characteristics are not easily selected for. Howie and I have both tried to selectively breed for wide banded kings from the infamous Virginia Beach Pungo Ridge lineage with very little success. In this case the frequency of wide-bandedness doesn't seem to be much effected by selective breeding.

Easterns are what I would call a highly dispersive species and as such variability is strongly encoded in their genetic makeup. When you see a distinctive local phenotype I would suspect that there is some habitat element that is allowing that phenotype to experience higher rates of recruitment. This would account for the majority of wc animals coming from this area being wide banded while wide banded offspring of captive animals continue to occur at a relatively low frequency.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Yeah, I can certainly see how that could be the case. Those Viginia Beach Eastern's are generally some mighty fine looking animals!

Thanks for sharing the findings that you and Howie have seen in those breeding outcomes.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yes, I fully agree with all that, and that what we see in many different types of snakes in the hobby doesn't necessarily reflect the exact phenotypes that would be found in the wild. This certainly has to be due to some selective trait breeding and somewhat limited gene pools as well.

thanks for the input!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Yeah Jorge, they were said to have originated from the Hillsbourough County area. I am sure not all of them look identical either, just as it is with virtually all snakes.

Nick Mesa(foxturtle) has captured some from that area in the past. He could offer a few pics of those W/C's if he chimes in, as well as Lindsay Pike.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

The Sulfur lines originated from high yellow Florida kings collected in Hillsborough County, but not really in Tampa.

A lot of high yellow kings have been found in Hillsborough County, but the founder male to the lines present in captivity now was an exceptional example hatched at a dealer/importer's facility from a WC gravid female.

>>The Sulfur lines originated from high yellow Florida kings collected in Hillsborough County, but not really in Tampa.
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>>A lot of high yellow kings have been found in Hillsborough County, but the founder male to the lines present in captivity now was an exceptional example hatched at a dealer/importer's facility from a WC gravid female.

Ahh that makes sense! Thanks for that explanation.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

You may be partially right about some lines but the original line began with a wc male Andy Barr caught in Hillsboro MANY years ago. He and Mike Falcon bred it to several females and later sold it to Len Krysko...it was the exceptional "school bus yellow" animal pictured on Len's website back then. Offspring were held back, some were sold, and as usual Andy crossed some with goini, called "dream kings", as he did lots of his other stuff. There are some really nice sulfurs around but IMHO, the best ones were from the founder stock that very few kept within the line. As far as I remember, Len said that male never reproduced for him befor it passed but had other very yellow animals from the same area.
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

I remeber seeing those Dream Kings1 I almost bought some but Andy wanted a pretty high price if I remember correctly. At least it seemed high to me at that time. He told me that they were from animals he caught in the Brandon area, of Hillsborough County. They looked like really good looking Brooks to me at that time but He insisted they were not Brooks. I had inquired about those Kings here several moths ago and Rainer remembered them, and was supposed to post some pics of them, but as usual he forgot. Now peices start to come together, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

you will also see people getting strange looking kings from their supposedly 100% "brooksi" looking pairs....
The answer to some of that is in the "dream king".
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

of that..confusion.

Before the name sulfur was used these kings were called Dream Kings. Later krysco called them sulfur or sulfur school bus yellow.

The Krysco high yellow school bus was crossed into goini and floridana by Andy and Mike. So just because they were called Dream kings does not mean they are 50% goini and has no correlation.

So all Dream kings do not have goini in them. Most of the originals don't. You can tell by looking at them. Andy just happened to do a goini breeding with them.

Here is a pic of one of Andys dream x goini kings-

Does not look like the other Dream kings which are pure sulfur.

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www.Bluerosy.com

Well, Rainer I can tell you that some DID look like FL kings (much much closer to real deal looks than most) and were called dream kings. Ask Bill Schmeidecke. He had a pair from Andy and bred them for some time with usual outcome of FL king looking animals. Nice, but nothing odd to tip it off that they had any other influence in them.
Then one year he got these....

after which, he sold the pair....
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Wow I like that one! LOL, I wouldn't have sold them.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Ohhh thats a bummer. I wonder how many of Bill's babies are today even floating around out there? Its unfortunate that one guy (Andy Barr) can upset the apple cart like that. Maybe its time to start a registry like they have with Cornsnakes for Common Kings?

Bone

>>Ohhh thats a bummer. I wonder how many of Bill's babies are today even floating around out there? Its unfortunate that one guy (Andy Barr) can upset the apple cart like that. Maybe its time to start a registry like they have with Cornsnakes for Common Kings?
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>>Bone

A Registry won't solve anything really. Unless you are forced to start a line with WC snakes. Even then what stops someone from lying?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Yeah I dont know just an idea. I think then its better to know exactly where your Kings come from. I like the look of the Brooksi X Goini crosses but only for what they are and not at the cost of them wrecking other lines. I guess personal responsibility is a thing from the past.

Bone

I don't know if that is indicative of goini influence. Krysko's line produces those as well.

you have to remember Len's association with Andy too, ya know.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

The ones I saw that he had for sale did't look like that one. They looked like bright Brooks or Sulfur.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>of that..confusion.
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>>Before the name sulfur was used these kings were called Dream Kings. Later krysco called them sulfur or sulfur school bus yellow.
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>>The Krysco high yellow school bus was crossed into goini and floridana by Andy and Mike. So just because they were called Dream kings does not mean they are 50% goini and has no correlation.
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>> So all Dream kings do not have goini in them. Most of the originals don't. You can tell by looking at them. Andy just happened to do a goini breeding with them.
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>>Here is a pic of one of Andys dream x goini kings-
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>>Does not look like the other Dream kings which are pure sulfur.
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>>www.Bluerosy.com
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

I think you are right brandon. That pic was what Andy called a fruition king. Maybe he called them that because they came from normal looking lines of the Dream king aka sulfur.

Either way. I know that there were pure Dreams and Dream goini crosses.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Yeah, I remember seeing the "yellow phase" brooksi Brandon referred to on Len Krysko's site a long time ago.

I think you meant to say "Bradenton" area of Hillsborough, not "Brandon" area..LMAO!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Bradenton is not in Hillsborough. Brandon is.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Oh, I thought he got Brandon's name confused as he was typing...........SORRY JORGE!!..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Well, THAT Brandon is not in Hillsborough!

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Yeah it's just a coincidence! Or is it? By the way the ones I saw looked like Brooks to me at that time. But I was not into them as much as I am now.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Bingo. Remember the bobbed tail?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

The animal I'm referring to is probably the same one you are thinking of. I've heard of it being captive hatched from WC adults by Andy Barr, and being hatched at Joe Fauci's.

As far as I know it did breed for Len Krysko, but who knows? Someone's got to call him up and ask...

I have talked to Len extensively and wrote much of our conversations down regarding his hypos, Pinellas, goini, and the sulfurs....
and of course the mole kings....
I'll probably not discuss much (on any public forum) on locales etc.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/