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Just wondering how many of you keep your Lined pines on heat. I thought (could be wrong) that heat was not required. My pine has not grown very much and now has developed a regurge issue. Any advice on how you are keeping yours would be great. I am in Houston so the temps have been cold a bit but not as long as the rest of the world. I keep my ambient temps at 75 degrees.

Thanks,
Miller
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1.1 Pituophis lineaticollis lineaticollis
1.1 Black Pine
1.2 Still Water Hypos
0.1 Possibly stillwater x Red Bull
1.2 N. Pinesnake
1.1 Eastern Kings
1.1 Black Milksnake
0.0.1 Plains Garter
1.0 Chow Chow(2003 Papi)
0.1 Cat(Shug

I keep my linis on heat but right now it's 30 outside and snowing. My ambient temps are pretty close to yours and my linis and deppeis all stay pretty much on the warm end. I have noticed with both of these that you can't push their food size like you can with northern and black pines or they will regurge.

The linis at just over 2' are still eating pinky mice. If I feed them fuzzy mice they hurl. They are a little bigger around than a pencil.My northerns which are just over 2' are pounding large fuzzy rats and can eat twice a week if I would let them. These are almost as thick as my thumb.

From what I've been learning the Mexican pines are a little more delicate their first year than other members of the family.
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BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
0.3 P. c. sayi Kingsville X Stillwater red bulls
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 D. corais Yellowtail Cribos
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

Thanks for the reply. I was feeding it pinky rats so maybe they are too large for it. I will take it down to pink mice and see what happens.

Thanks again,
Miller

>>I keep my linis on heat but right now it's 30 outside and snowing. My ambient temps are pretty close to yours and my linis and deppeis all stay pretty much on the warm end. I have noticed with both of these that you can't push their food size like you can with northern and black pines or they will regurge.
>>
>>The linis at just over 2' are still eating pinky mice. If I feed them fuzzy mice they hurl. They are a little bigger around than a pencil.My northerns which are just over 2' are pounding large fuzzy rats and can eat twice a week if I would let them. These are almost as thick as my thumb.
>>
>>From what I've been learning the Mexican pines are a little more delicate their first year than other members of the family.
>>-----
>>BigT
>>There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
>>1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
>>1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
>>2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
>>1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
>>0.3 P. c. sayi Kingsville X Stillwater red bulls
>>1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
>>1.2 D. corais Yellowtail Cribos
>>1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
>>2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
>>1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
>>0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
>>1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards
-----
1.1 Pituophis lineaticollis lineaticollis
1.1 Black Pine
1.2 Still Water Hypos
0.1 Possibly stillwater x Red Bull
1.2 N. Pinesnake
1.1 Eastern Kings
1.1 Black Milksnake
0.0.1 Plains Garter
1.0 Chow Chow(2003 Papi)
0.1 Cat(Shug

It would be a good idea to wait at least a week or longer after regurging before attempting to feed again. This can really throw their digestive system out of whack, technical term. Feeding too soon regardeless of size may still cause more regurgitation. Then first feeding feed only one pinky until you're sure it will keep it down. Then feed smaller items and more frequently as often as every 4 days 2 at a time. 2 or 3 more good feedings and you should be able to step up to 1 fuzzy mouse and see how it goes. Before long it will be growing like a weed and pounding food like your other pits.

Linis can be a little frustrating when you are used to eating machines like northerns. All of mine eat but not consistantly. I fed last night and out of 4 only 2 ate. Last week only 1 ate. But they all have good weight so I'm not worried.
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BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
0.3 P. c. sayi Kingsville X Stillwater red bulls
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 D. corais Yellowtail Cribos
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

I just have one '09. She gurged once along time ago, so I cut back on meal size and frequency. She's growing pretty slow and way behind my other '09 pits. Probably about 34 inches now and seems happy with 2-3 hopper mice or 3 fuzzy rats. She's a shy, nervous animal but seems to be calming down. She's also lightening up gradually.

Here's a link to her details and a growth and feeding graph.
serpentrack.com/?c=specimens&a=detail&id=54

Notice the her meal weights are roughly between 10% and 20% of her body weight. I would say keep it 10-15% at about 10 day intervals until she/he gets more robust.

Mine has a warm side of 85-90 and cool side of room temp, 68-73F and she typically avoids the warmer side so I would guess low to mid 70s is probably optimal with an option for warmer.

Another thing is that she seems to digest more slowly than my other pits but this is just my feeling.
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See all my snakes at SerpenTrack.com

I only have P. deppei, but given their similarities I think your lined pines might benefit from a warm spot: after all, they evolved to spend most of their time in rodent burrows (e.g. they like it cool) AND to deal with the Central American surface temps

Quick story: I had a basking light on the warm end of the cage for a while and while it ended up being too warm (95-100) under the light, my bigger male P. d. jani would use that spot daily (albeit briefly). I eventually nixed the heat lamp and went with under tank heating alone (ultratherm pads on a thermostat) but those observations reaffirmed some under appreciated advice.

1. Given a suitable range of temps and space to bask or hide, they're quite capable of managing their body temps. If you have the space, they'll appreciate a range of temperature options.

2. Regarding suggested temperature ranges... I seems that it's quite alright to have the hot (or cool) end(s) of an enclosure be a little too warm (or too cool) so long as they have access to temps in the middle of their ideal range at all times. It seems like it's best to have the average temps err on the side of being too cool (vs. too hot), but if you have a temp. gradient across the cage it's probably fine to have a "hot" spot as long as they can escape from the heat at will. At the other extreme, a very narrow temperature range probably interferes with their ability to warm up or cool off as needed.

Good rule of thumb: The bigger the cage, the better off you are expanding the temperature range a little bit. More space means more room for hides and more room to get away from that hot spot that they'll probably use infrequently, but use nonetheless.

~Paul
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I will offer her some additional heating. I really think after reading the comments that its a prey size issue. When I feed her/him some really small items she did not regurge. Since I only breed rats i will have to get me a few mice to breed until I can get it up to size. Thanks for all the great information.

Miller

>>I only have P. deppei, but given their similarities I think your lined pines might benefit from a warm spot: after all, they evolved to spend most of their time in rodent burrows (e.g. they like it cool) AND to deal with the Central American surface temps
>>
>>Quick story: I had a basking light on the warm end of the cage for a while and while it ended up being too warm (95-100) under the light, my bigger male P. d. jani would use that spot daily (albeit briefly). I eventually nixed the heat lamp and went with under tank heating alone (ultratherm pads on a thermostat) but those observations reaffirmed some under appreciated advice.
>>
>>1. Given a suitable range of temps and space to bask or hide, they're quite capable of managing their body temps. If you have the space, they'll appreciate a range of temperature options.
>>
>>2. Regarding suggested temperature ranges... I seems that it's quite alright to have the hot (or cool) end(s) of an enclosure be a little too warm (or too cool) so long as they have access to temps in the middle of their ideal range at all times. It seems like it's best to have the average temps err on the side of being too cool (vs. too hot), but if you have a temp. gradient across the cage it's probably fine to have a "hot" spot as long as they can escape from the heat at will. At the other extreme, a very narrow temperature range probably interferes with their ability to warm up or cool off as needed.
>>
>>Good rule of thumb: The bigger the cage, the better off you are expanding the temperature range a little bit. More space means more room for hides and more room to get away from that hot spot that they'll probably use infrequently, but use nonetheless.
>>
>>~Paul
>>------
>>
>>
>>
-----
1.1 Pituophis lineaticollis lineaticollis
1.1 Black Pine
1.2 Still Water Hypos
0.1 Possibly stillwater x Red Bull
1.2 N. Pinesnake
1.1 Eastern Kings
1.1 Black Milksnake
0.0.1 Plains Garter
1.0 Chow Chow(2003 Papi)
0.1 Cat(Shug

Thanks for the information. I breed my own rats so i guess it is time to get a couple of mice going for smaller pinks!

>>I just have one '09. She gurged once along time ago, so I cut back on meal size and frequency. She's growing pretty slow and way behind my other '09 pits. Probably about 34 inches now and seems happy with 2-3 hopper mice or 3 fuzzy rats. She's a shy, nervous animal but seems to be calming down. She's also lightening up gradually.
>>
>>Here's a link to her details and a growth and feeding graph.
>>serpentrack.com/?c=specimens&a=detail&id=54
>>
>>Notice the her meal weights are roughly between 10% and 20% of her body weight. I would say keep it 10-15% at about 10 day intervals until she/he gets more robust.
>>
>>Mine has a warm side of 85-90 and cool side of room temp, 68-73F and she typically avoids the warmer side so I would guess low to mid 70s is probably optimal with an option for warmer.
>>
>>Another thing is that she seems to digest more slowly than my other pits but this is just my feeling.
>>-----
>> See all my snakes at SerpenTrack.com
-----
1.1 Pituophis lineaticollis lineaticollis
1.1 Black Pine
1.2 Still Water Hypos
0.1 Possibly stillwater x Red Bull
1.2 N. Pinesnake
1.1 Eastern Kings
1.1 Black Milksnake
0.0.1 Plains Garter
1.0 Chow Chow(2003 Papi)
0.1 Cat(Shug

Mt stepfather has a pair. They are kept in a heated room floor level. Daytime temps in the room is around 83 and drops in the night to the upper 70's. He has had them since the end of June and they are growing pretty good. They are actually eating machines that have never refused or regurged a meal.
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1.2 Black Pines
.1 Albino Northen Pine
1.1 Northern Pines
1. Hypo Bull
1.1 D. Deppei

Thanks for the input, I have decided to up the heat a bit and reduce the size of the meals.

Miller

>>Mt stepfather has a pair. They are kept in a heated room floor level. Daytime temps in the room is around 83 and drops in the night to the upper 70's. He has had them since the end of June and they are growing pretty good. They are actually eating machines that have never refused or regurged a meal.
>>-----
>>1.2 Black Pines
>> .1 Albino Northen Pine
>>1.1 Northern Pines
>>1. Hypo Bull
>>1.1 D. Deppei
>>
>>
-----
1.1 Pituophis lineaticollis lineaticollis
1.1 Black Pine
1.2 Still Water Hypos
0.1 Possibly stillwater x Red Bull
1.2 N. Pinesnake
1.1 Eastern Kings
1.1 Black Milksnake
0.0.1 Plains Garter
1.0 Chow Chow(2003 Papi)
0.1 Cat(Shug

My advice is the same as Paul's. Give these guys a wide range of temps to work with. Go online and get some locality and elevation info for this ssp. so you have some parameters regarding what the ambient temps are. They are generally found at relatively high elevations which translates in overall cooler temps and significant daily temp shifts. But in the wild they will choose micro-climates that offer them the widest range of options to carry on the bio-chemistry of life.

I keep mine with a warm spot year round. I have great success with not brumating my breeders. They have access to a 95 degree spot, with daily temps from mid 70's as a high and mid 60's as a night time low during the "winter". They have access to natural light day length cycle. I do feed smaller and less frequent meals during the cooler season.

Generally speaking I have not found this ssp to be sensitive, difficult, or hard to start and maintain when kept this way. When I got my first two pairs I fed one of the pairs often and larger meals in an attempt to see what sort of upper limits they had. I never had a regurge. My breeders are in the 7-8 ft range and lay clutches of 25-35 eggs!

When I have seen wild snakes out in the sun during cold temps they have almost always been in an isolated warm micro climate,(west side of rocky ledge or west facing burrow opening) and almost always showed some evidence of having a large meal or a partially healed injury. My take home message after years of keeping snakes with and without temp gradients is provide as wide a gradient as you possibly can (with multiple hides in all parts of enclosure) to ensure that your animal gets opportunities to fine tune their own body temp.

Speaking of hides... what are your thoughts, John, on heavy vs. light hides, and their size/dimensions (particularly height)??

I was using modified terra cotta drip trays for my P. d. jani, but switched to inverted (and shortened) polypro bins when the larger of my trio outgrew his hides. I know they seem to prefer hides that are a "snug" fit (i.e. lots of wall and ceiling contact when they're coiled up inside) so we'll see whether he likes having higher ceilings and hides that are easier to push around (and up!). Slipping half of a cereal box inside for added wall and ceiling surfaces seems to have made the new hides more attractive.

Just curious to hear what kinds of hides have (and haven't) worked for others, and people's thoughts on hides that do (short) or don't (tall) offer dorsal contact.

-Paul

When i read advice about providing gradients I wait for examples on how to do this. I am by no means intending to sound confrontational and truly appreciate the advice. I just would like an example of how that gradient range is achieved. I have a four by 2 enclosure and one side has belly heat the other does not. If I turn up the belly heat it will heat the entire enclosure so how do I achieve the proper gradient in such a confined space.

Thanks again,
Miller

>>My advice is the same as Paul's. Give these guys a wide range of temps to work with. Go online and get some locality and elevation info for this ssp. so you have some parameters regarding what the ambient temps are. They are generally found at relatively high elevations which translates in overall cooler temps and significant daily temp shifts. But in the wild they will choose micro-climates that offer them the widest range of options to carry on the bio-chemistry of life.
>>
>>I keep mine with a warm spot year round. I have great success with not brumating my breeders. They have access to a 95 degree spot, with daily temps from mid 70's as a high and mid 60's as a night time low during the "winter". They have access to natural light day length cycle. I do feed smaller and less frequent meals during the cooler season.
>>
>>Generally speaking I have not found this ssp to be sensitive, difficult, or hard to start and maintain when kept this way. When I got my first two pairs I fed one of the pairs often and larger meals in an attempt to see what sort of upper limits they had. I never had a regurge. My breeders are in the 7-8 ft range and lay clutches of 25-35 eggs!
>>
>>
>>
>>When I have seen wild snakes out in the sun during cold temps they have almost always been in an isolated warm micro climate,(west side of rocky ledge or west facing burrow opening) and almost always showed some evidence of having a large meal or a partially healed injury. My take home message after years of keeping snakes with and without temp gradients is provide as wide a gradient as you possibly can (with multiple hides in all parts of enclosure) to ensure that your animal gets opportunities to fine tune their own body temp.
>>
-----
1.1 Pituophis lineaticollis lineaticollis
1.1 Black Pine
1.2 Still Water Hypos
0.1 Possibly stillwater x Red Bull
1.2 N. Pinesnake
1.1 Eastern Kings
1.1 Black Milksnake
0.0.1 Plains Garter
1.0 Chow Chow(2003 Papi)
0.1 Cat(Shug

"I just would like an example of how that gradient range is achieved. I have a four by 2 enclosure and one side has belly heat the other does not. If I turn up the belly heat it will heat the entire enclosure so how do I achieve the proper gradient in such a confined space."

In my case, I use belly heat on one end of a modified sterilite bin using an ultratherm mat that's less than a third of the surface area of the floorspace (probably less than a quarter of the floor space in some cases). I've got a hide right on top of it and keep an indoor/outdoor thermometer hanging on the back wall inside the cage with the probe under the heated enclosure -- so the "outside" temp reading is the hot hide, the "inside" temp reading is the ambient temp on the other side of the cage. I've found the cool hide is typically at or only slightly warmer than the "inside" temp reading, even when the hot hide is 10+ degrees (Fahrenheit) warmer. Aspen bedding and plastic floor probably help insulate things and make for a steeper temp. gradient.

Also - Thanks for the hide details John

I have used everything from cereal boxes, used Harry and Davids fruit boxes, potting lids, etc. I have actually contemplated buying boxes of various sizes....
I ended up getting a stack of plastic, drawer inserts from a friend that seem to work for everything up to about a 4 ft snake. I took some dish sink rubber basins and cut them down to lower the roof and then added an entry opening. I generally go to the landscape supply yard once or twice a year and pick up a bunch of scrap flagstone to use as weight on the hides. You can hand pick and break them to usable sizes. (also gives a snake something to use to get a shed started peeling. I toss the stones out after they get too dirty from being crapped on, (every 6-10 months).

When given a choice I notice that my snakes gravitate to the tightest and heaviest hides.
When the hides get too dirty I toss them in a tub of bleach water for a few hours. I don't bleach the stones because they seem relatively porous and I don't want to go back into the cage with that. Also, I don't change out the hides too often and my thinking is that even with a bit of dirt/crap on them they "smell" like home to the snake possibly helping them be a bit calmer and less stressed.....

As far as heat gradient....what would happen if you got a smaller under tank heater or moved the existing one out from the edge? What material is your tank bottom? If glass maybe it heats up more. At any rate position your heat element in one corner and let it get 85 or even 95 degrees. With a four foot enclosure the far end should definitely be much cooler. Get creative... put some cage furniture in the far end that they can get up on and off the floor. Put several hides in so that they can choose the one they want which may change from day to day or seasonally depending on the needs of the animals.

I have Animal Plastic display cages with built in heat so I can't move the heating elements around. If i had an aquarium type cages I think it would be easier to achieve the "hot spots" in the cage. Hmm, I will have to put my mostly non-existent creative cap on. For the Lined pine it is not an issue, she/he is in a cage that allows me to create hot spot but for my other animals that are in display cages that where the dilemma lies.

Thanks again for you input.

Miller

>>As far as heat gradient....what would happen if you got a smaller under tank heater or moved the existing one out from the edge? What material is your tank bottom? If glass maybe it heats up more. At any rate position your heat element in one corner and let it get 85 or even 95 degrees. With a four foot enclosure the far end should definitely be much cooler. Get creative... put some cage furniture in the far end that they can get up on and off the floor. Put several hides in so that they can choose the one they want which may change from day to day or seasonally depending on the needs of the animals.
>>
>>
>>
>>
-----
1.1 Pituophis lineaticollis lineaticollis
1.1 Black Pine
1.2 Still Water Hypos
0.1 Possibly stillwater x Red Bull
1.2 N. Pinesnake
1.1 Eastern Kings
1.1 Black Milksnake
0.0.1 Plains Garter
1.0 Chow Chow(2003 Papi)
0.1 Cat(Shug