Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi, I'm kinda new here and a King newbie. I've always wanted to get one though. I've read Bob Applegate's book recently. I've been jonesen for a pyro, but now the bi-colored albino tangerine Honduran milk has caught my attention. So my question is...What are the differences?
Thanks!

Why not get both and find out for yourself? In general pyros are more mellow than milks. Hondurans get bigger. Neither take up much space so having both would be easy.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

LOL! That would be awesome. Do Hondurans stop eating as much or as early as Pyros?

>>LOL! That would be awesome. Do Hondurans stop eating as much or as early as Pyros?

Mine are eating like gangbusters still!

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

WOW! They are beautiful. Being from the tropics, do you still brumate them?

>>WOW! They are beautiful. Being from the tropics, do you still brumate them?

They don't need a severe temperature drop, but living here in Florida is perfect. I am still pushing them, trying to get as much growth on the females, so maybe they'll be big enough to breed this next spring. I think the Albino will be fine but the female hypo Crazy is borderline. I may have to wait another year, arrgh!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

What about poop slinging? I hear hondos do that a lot when young. And the bite & chewing thing I have questions about too. Are these things they grow out of with handling?

>>What about poop slinging? I hear hondos do that a lot when young. And the bite & chewing thing I have questions about too. Are these things they grow out of with handling?

Mine weren't bad at all. I do believe they grow out of it if handled frequently. The ones that do demonstrate these behaviors are just scared. So as they become more comfortable with you they will do it less and less. Most adult Hondos I've seen are quite docile and calm. There are exceptions to every rule. I have some Floridana that are super cailm and a couple that are super nervous. This has been debated here many times before, but I believe temperment is passed down by the parents. So if that's an important quality for you, then you should inquire about the parents. Hopefully you'll get an honest answer.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

If you're looking for a snake to handle, you'll need patience with both. I've not had a hatchling or juvenile of Pyro or Hondo want anything to do with being held. I keep both and have for quite awhile.

They are both crazy and skittish as hatchlings. Though, hondos are more prone to bite at you. But, they'll both musk you. As adults, I find it easier to handle Hondos. Neither type will bite anymore at adult size. Hondos get much larger and robust, and tolerate handling very well. My pyros tolerate it, but still act like they'd rather be somewhere else.

Hondos don't shut down like Pyros. It seems like no matter how you keep them, Pyros will shut down at the right time of year. You won't get that with Hondos. I've bred Hondos with full brumation, and also other years with just a slight temp change and less feeding (and light cycle change). Pyros tend to need a full on brumation.

And Hondo babies eat anything in sight. I rarely even need live pinks, they usually take frozen thawed straight from hatching. Not always the case with Pyros.

If you're looking for a pet, you can't go wrong either way. I tend to think Hondos are just a touch simpler to deal with, but not enough to worry about. In the end, it's all what you're looking for. They're both awesome.
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Brian Suter

www.serpenteer.com

Thanks everyone for the great advice. You gave me a lot to chew on.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8XwiFcLsuA
One of my pyros eating pinks as a baby. None have ever musked me although my wc Cali king did a couple times before he learned I was not going to hurt him.

I do like the thing about the Hondurans not having to brumate! I miss my bigger pyros. They are in brumation now. At least I have some babies to play with. It never occurred to me to look into milk snakes; I saw the pyros and fell in love at first sight! But if I had the space I'd check out some of those Hondurans, too. Really pretty animals!
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

>>I do like the thing about the Hondurans not having to brumate! I miss my bigger pyros. They are in brumation now. At least I have some babies to play with. It never occurred to me to look into milk snakes; I saw the pyros and fell in love at first sight! But if I had the space I'd check out some of those

I have yet to have my young pyros "shut down" for winter.....
I always have fed them through the winter (third winter for some now).

So....I wouldn't say that Pyros HAVE to brumate.......It is not necessary for them to survive or thrive.....
I would say that they must go through a brumation if you want to breed them.......As with Hondurans......Hondurans DO have to go through some sort of brumation to reproduce........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

The Hondos should be cooled down if you intend to breed them, they just don't require as low of temps. 60's is probably enough. I put them with all my others kings since I don't have anything that requires very cold temps for brumation.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I don't think I'll be breeding any time soon. So whatever I get can stay awake all winter if it wants

It's interesting how we all have different experiences. I guess that's why you should find out what works for you and stick with it.

My baby Pyros musk me OFTEN. And, for example, this year out of 7 pyros I have under a year old. 3 of them completely shut down and refused to eat, right next to the other 4 that kept right on eating. HOWEVER, every one of my adults stopped eating. I truly think they needed brumation to keep them on a healthy cycle.

As far as the Hondos and brumation. I've bred them off and on for about 10 years. Only one year did I put them in a full brumation. Other years I dropped there temps a bit, but NEVER did they go under 70 (prob never under 73) and I got multiple clutches every time I wanted them. Last year, I decided to breed only one pair in the spring. Because I hadn't planned it ahead of time, I never changed a thing, never touched the thermostat, never dropped their temps a degree, and they are inside, in a room with no windows, so the light cycle couldn't even play a role. They were simply fed less while all my other animals were in brumation. My light are on a 12 on 12 off timer. I got a perfect 6 egg clutch.

I'm not saying you can always get a perfect rate doing it that way, but I can guarantee you they'll breed without a brumation, and do so quite well. If I had a pair, that I absolutely wanted to guarantee breeding though, you bet I'd brumate them.
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Brian Suter

www.serpenteer.com

Yep...that is why I states "some sort of brumation".....
There are many different ways to get them ready for breeding......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

The main reason I brumate my pyros and pits is to keep their weights up. If they are not going to eat all winter, the lower temperatures of brumation help them conserve body mass.

My home is in the Sierra Nevada foothills which is much like their native Arizona. They look out the window and see the snow and say Yup, time to go underground and sleep until spring! Of my 8 new '10 babies, only one tiny female is still eating. I will offer food once a week to the babies, if they want to eat they can. They can avail themselves of cooler spots in their cages, and sort of semi-brumate, or if they actually eat can go to the hot spot to digest. I don't heat my cabin real hot, generally mid 60's F to low 70s F in winter during waking hours and the mid 40's F at night.

If I lived in a warmer place like Texas or Florida maybe they would behave differently.

If I had Hondurans I don't think they would do so well here, as they are from a warmer climate.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Good point. Living in New England, I to, live in a cool climate.

>>Good point. Living in New England, I to, live in a cool climate.

"Cool".....HAHAHAHAHA......New England is flat out COLD!....lol
It gets cool here in South Texas.......We actually hit 34F three or four nights ago..........That's VERY COLD for here.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

34F...That's t-shirt weather for us! LOL!

34F...That's t-shirt weather for us! LOL!
A few nights ago we had 17F for lows a few nights in a row. When it warmed up into the 30'sF it felt tropical!
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

>>34F...That's t-shirt weather for us! LOL!

LOL.....I know....
I worked up in Ohio in January once and it was -23F......Just awful for this Southerner.....When it hit 2F it felt like a warm front.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I'm in WV, we're in the 30's and snow now. But, my Pyros shut down completely on their own a month ago. I put them in brumation last week. The babies that stopped also went out in the garage.

My Hondurans are still going like pigs. Pyros just know.
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Brian Suter

www.serpenteer.com

Pyros have the call of the wild.

>>Pyros have the call of the wild.

Not mine....I have 2.0 from Kitt Peak, 1.1 Non Locale and 1.1 Knobs that are all still eating......at least twice a week....

90F on the hot end and 70F on the cool end year round until they reach breeding size........Usually in 2.5 years for me.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Lol. If Nothing else, we're proving you get no guarantees with any of these animals. Find what works for you, and do it.

Out of my 12 Pyros, 9 shut down on their own, without a touch on the temp -- ambient or thermostat controlled. Of the 3 that didn't, 2 were Knobs.

There were a few threads earlier, where a lot of people chimed in, some with questions about how early their Pyros had stopped eating this year. I was surprised to see how many had it happen. Mine started to refuse food in early Oct, and by Nov., stopped eating entirely. These were adults, the juvies stopped a few weeks later, but I'm not sure what age had to do with it. But it seemed early, and it must have happened a good bit to people this year, not sure what the breakdown of location was.
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Brian Suter

www.serpenteer.com

Pyros:
a) Cooler background temps preferred (still provide a warm bask area, just not the entire cage).
b) Very calm snakes, one of the calmest.
c) Will stay on smaller food entire life (these snakes have small, flat heads and are long and slender).
d) Relish a moist hide.

Hondurans:
a) Can handle a warmer background temp but OK with cool too. Basking spot can be larger than for pyro.
b) Not calm. Can be hard to hold when young. Adults are better but still on the move when held. Can musk alot.
c) Moist hide helps, as milks have thin skin compared to kings.

IMO these are quite different snakes in appearance, form and function. If you can keep the ambient temps from getting above 82, then pyros IMO are it.
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Mark

If you can keep the ambient temps from getting above 82, then pyros IMO are it.
During the summer when we get a heat wave I give my pyros those frozen gel packs wrapped in a towel. They like that.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire