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What is considered to be average size/lenghth for an adult male pyro pyro? Thanks! Jeff

>>What is considered to be average size/lenghth for an adult male pyro pyro? Thanks! Jeff

I have one adult male that is just over 3 feet and 300 grams.....
But if you consider them adults when they can breed successfully, 150 grams is an adult......
I had a pair under 150 grams produce slugs this year......They are both over 220 grams now and nearing 3 feet.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I've bred pyros since the 70s. I think female pyros (gray-bands, Cal Mt kings, etc) are best bred after their fourth birthday. Males can mate by their third year.

My largest male pyro was 52 inches long at age 21, at the time of his death. Next largest was 49 inches long, and lived to around 20. Males get larger than females. My larger females never got over 40 inches.

>>I've bred pyros since the 70s. I think female pyros (gray-bands, Cal Mt kings, etc) are best bred after their fourth birthday. Males can mate by their third year.
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>>My largest male pyro was 52 inches long at age 21, at the time of his death. Next largest was 49 inches long, and lived to around 20. Males get larger than females. My larger females never got over 40 inches.
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>>

It's more about the size they are......Age is irrelevant in my opinion......
If my pyro, Greeri, thayeri, Alterna, ruthveni, zonata, mex mex, etc. females are over 3 feet in 2.5 years they are adults......And are breedable.....Some even breed them smaller with NO ILL effects........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

If you have had good results breeding pyros at 2 1/2 years, that settles it. I suppose my females just did not grow fast enough to be large at under four years old. Doubtless much has been learned in the decades since I bred pyros. I'm glad to see how far the hobby has come. I go back so far, I remember the first Blair's phase gray-bands on the market, back before they were bred in captivity for the first time, back when Blair's phase and alterna phase animals were thought to be separate species. We were doing a lot of guessing about best husbandry in those days. Today's reptile keepers have a lot of support and great info, like the updated understanding you offer about breedable age for pyros. Good times.

I read somewhere about the Rule of Threes for females:
Three years old
Three Feet Long
Three Hundred Grams

If all these specifications are met she can be expected to produce viable eggs.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

>>I read somewhere about the Rule of Threes for females:
>>Three years old
>>Three Feet Long
>>Three Hundred Grams
>>
>>If all these specifications are met she can be expected to produce viable eggs.

I may have even posted that once...years ago....
But those rules fit common kings better than mexicana or montane kings......A 300 gram Thayeri is rather large....

That used to be the rule I followed until I found out first hand that snakes will breed successfully if husbandry is correct, regardless of age or a certain size.....If they breed they are adults...allbeit small, but that are still adults....The females will just lay longer, thinner eggs than when they get larger.

I bred a pair of Mex Mex last year. When they hooked up and bred they were under two years of age. They were hatched in the Summer of 2008 and bred the Spring of 2010......I had only one good egg though, but I still call that successfull.....They are proven now and should have a great year this coming Spring/Summer.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>If you have had good results breeding pyros at 2 1/2 years, that settles it. I suppose my females just did not grow fast enough to be large at under four years old. Doubtless much has been learned in the decades since I bred pyros. I'm glad to see how far the hobby has come. I go back so far, I remember the first Blair's phase gray-bands on the market, back before they were bred in captivity for the first time, back when Blair's phase and alterna phase animals were thought to be separate species. We were doing a lot of guessing about best husbandry in those days. Today's reptile keepers have a lot of support and great info, like the updated understanding you offer about breedable age for pyros. Good times.

By all means I don't consider myself successfull with this yet....I do know by four years of age though that my pyros would have missed at least one year of breeding in captivity. Some may still consider breeding at a younger age and feeding more than once a week will shorten the lifespan of captive snake, but I have yet to see any ill effects at all.....I have some snakes that are well over 10 years of age and a few nearing 20....

It surely has to do with husbandry. I have no idea what type of husbandry was being provided to snakes back in the 70s, but today I think most of us keepers/breeders provide many options for our snakes...One main option is feeding when the snake wants to feed and not on a keeper's schedule.....I think in the first year of life a kingsnake will eat well over 100 suitable prey items....If there is suitable provisions for digestion.....This rate slows with age as I have seen it myself with my snakes. A young snake shows signs of wanting to eat every 3 days or so and an adult snake will show signs every 5 to 10 days......Just my observations......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Husbandry attitudes have evolved in 40 years. I was always a bit different from other keepers in that I raised my own mice and rats (still do) to ensure quality feeders, usually had a few live mice in a cage in the same room with the snakes (which I suspect keeps the aroma of prey in the air and may contribute to my snakes' reliably agressive feeding habits), and fed when the snakes were hungry rather than on a schedule. I've had all sorts of snakes go through phases when they seemed insatiable, feeding several times a week and shedding frequently. With access to a healthy rodent colony, I have the option of offering frequent small meals rather than occasional large meals, which in some cases seems to improve digestion and promote growth. Growing racers, coachwhips and indigos are especially frequent feeders, eating five or more times each week during peak feeding periods.

It's a lot of work; the old notion that reptiles are some sort of free pass to low-investment pet ownership doesn't seem to apply in my collection. There are animals to feed every day around here in summer. I'll be prepping food for one snake and a neighbor in a nearby cage will see the activity and give me the eye, so they get offered as well. Winter hibernation is a welcome break from non-stop husbandry and even then there are boas and a few lizards that don't sleep the winter away. Oy, as we say in the business.