Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does anyone here have any really big Kings? If so lets see em and do you feed FT or live? Is there a connection between live food and frozen thawed and the ultimate size of your snake? The reason I ask is I recently had a discussion with a friend and he swears live food (or fresh pre-killed) is better for your snake and allows them to grow bigger faster and reach larger sizes then FT feeders. He claims freezing wipes out lots of the nutritional value of a rodent. Any thoughts?

Bone

Here is a 69" Hypomelanistic Brooksi I once had......I fed it about 6 F/T mice or 2 F/T Medium rats at a time.......

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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Yeah that is one big Floridana! I dont think Ive ever seen a Florida morph that big before. What became of him?

Bone

>>Yeah that is one big Floridana! I dont think Ive ever seen a Florida morph that big before. What became of him?
>>
>>Bone

He passed in 2005.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Ah, NO. There are a lot of things that go into making a king bigger than average but fresh vs frozen isnt one of em. If you have a picky feeder the smell of fresh will get them to feed easier but picky feeders arent usually really big. Really big snakes are that way because they are usually the trash cans of the collection. Everyone needs that one snake that eats everyone elses leftovers. They are usually males and keeping them warm and not breeding them will keep their minds on food 24/7.

I understand that Kings can get big on FT but the other part of my post was are live or freshly killed (not frozen) more nutritious than FT?

Bone

>>I understand that Kings can get big on FT but the other part of my post was are live or freshly killed (not frozen) more nutritious than FT?
>>
>>Bone

NO.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Hi,

I have a 12 year old pair of S. GA easterns that have been fed f/t mice, rats, chicks and quail (basically whatever I had) since hatching. I brought the pair to Daytona a couple of years ago and many folks commented that my male GA was the biggest king that they had ever seen. He is over 6 ft long and still growing (albeit slowly). The female maxed out at about 5 feet, but it is fair to say that she would be bigger if she did not convert 10 years worth of calories into laying 2 or 3 20+ egg clutches per year. I think that if you feed quality feeders from a good source and feed them off relatively fresh (not old & freezer burned) the nutrient loss is negligeable.

Will

About what age did this male King hit the 6' mark? great looking Kings by the way!

Bone

Have any pics of you holding that big male? Im sure many would like to see him and count me in!

"The reason I ask is I recently had a discussion with a friend and he swears live food (or fresh pre-killed) is better for your snake and allows them to grow bigger faster and reach larger sizes then FT feeders. "

Does he have any evidence of the nutritional value of frozen food vs. live food?

In order to prove his case, he's need to raise up a large number of kings on frozen food and a large number on live food. Did he do this?

People eat frozen food. Do those folks not grow as big as the people who only eat live food?

The problem with self-proclaimed "experts" like your friend is that they spout out stupid things that even stupider people don't think twice about believing.

In addition to the amount of food eaten, the genetics of some snakes has a lot to do with the ultimate size they reach.

Tim

Russian Ratsnake pretending to be an Eastern King:

Third Eye

just about anything in their preferred food list whether it is young, old, sick or even dead and partially decaying, I would gather that upmost pristine food items are not all that necessary.
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Mark

I don't think live or frozen makes any difference if the frozen isn't extremely old. However I have noticed a big difference when I switch any snakes from mice over to rats. Rats just seem to have more bulk to make snakes grow quicker. I am trying hard to switch all my snakes once they are big enough to start eating rats. Even if it's only rat pinkies. Once they get a taste for rats it's not only more nutrition but it's also cheaper if you breed your own, to get them up to size.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I used to worry about stuff like that but now rarely worry about anything my kings eat...

I think pink mice are like 50% protein I think and some here say they're "all water"...
(see link)
:Mark
vertebrate food

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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

That's kinda my thoughts too....
My snakes grow just fine no matter what I feed them so why change anything at all. F/T mice seem to do just fine......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

hi mark,
i sent that article over to rodent pro a couple of years ago.just goes to show a little stone can make a big splash (?...). there is a whole bunch of text as well that they didn't post but the chart is really good. i unexpectedly got free shipping on the next order i made lol.

related to the protein: water composition, most things crawling around are 60-80% water. when they do these tests check out how they do them. i think most are dry weight analyses, that they baked off all the water before they did the testing. from what i am told it is easier to compare "apples and oranges" for example, or compost samples, or different size carcasses w/o discrepancy of water weight. w/o water weight i'd guess you'd see a higher % protein?

i really hope you send a pic of the ghost's kids to "grandpa" (hint hint) when they hatch out --- should be this year?

peace,
dave b

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odelay odelay odelay hee hoooo...
heeeeya huhhhh!
~Back in the saddle (Aerosmith)

A full grown mouse has more of what a snake needs than a pink rat....Just sayin......

Once a snake starts taking meals with fur and bones they take off no matter if it is a rat or a mouse........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

All I know is they grow like weeds on rats. It takes less feedings and more seems to go to growth.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>All I know is they grow like weeds on rats. It takes less feedings and more seems to go to growth.

Thats ALL you know?.......LOL....J/K Jorge.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Remember, I am a truck driver, lol. I can hold a steering wheel!
Ha ha, that's funny, take care John. But seriously I have noticed a huge growth spurt since I started breeding and feeding my snakes rats.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>Remember, I am a truck driver, lol. I can hold a steering wheel!
>>Ha ha, that's funny, take care John. But seriously I have noticed a huge growth spurt since I started breeding and feeding my snakes rats.
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>>King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
>> J Sierra

I have found this too and what I started doing for a few months was weighing the prey I fed. A mouse and rat may look the same size but the rat always weighed more. So I found when I thought I was feeding similar prey the rat was generally more substantial. As for more calcium for the bone...then there is the milk in the gut....to me it evens out in the wash. Just saying.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

You are probably right even if they seem about the same size the rat is usually heavier. So it is a case of just more rodent! Maybe that is why the perception is that the rats are making them grow faster? One small rat is about equal 3 or 4 Large mice. It take me a long time to raise a mouse to it's full size! Maybe I should have said rats are more efficient, and get the job done quicker?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Hi John,

I agree with you. A few years ago I was having a conversation with Dave Barker in Daytona. We were discussing growth rates of pythons and he mentioned that people often do more harm than good when switching young, growing snakes over from mice to rats. Dave stated that he had seen several young pythons that developed skeletal problems (depressions, kinks, broken bones)once they hit that sub-adult stage when they are growing quickly and converting calcium to bone growth. It seems that people equate similar sizes in rodents with similar nutrition levels, when actually, rat pups have far less usable calcium than an adult mouse (whose skeleton is well developed). While I am sure that there are many factors that would influence such issues, I would err on the side of caution and at least alternate between very young rats and mature mice in order to make sure calcium needs were being met.

Will

Will, I was just going to say the same thing. Size growth seems to be linked to available calcium than anything else. Rat bones are MUCH bigger than mouse bones, even the biggest mice have relatively small bones.

>>Will, I was just going to say the same thing. Size growth seems to be linked to available calcium than anything else. Rat bones are MUCH bigger than mouse bones, even the biggest mice have relatively small bones.

But a weaned mouse has better bone structure and calcium than a rat of the same size (pink rat).
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

On this I agree as well, and this is why I dont feed pink rats but wait a while longer to switch em over....til they feed well on weaned mice THEN make the switch.

>>Will, I was just going to say the same thing. Size growth seems to be linked to available calcium than anything else. Rat bones are MUCH bigger than mouse bones, even the biggest mice have relatively small bones.

This makes it hard to know what side of the arguement you are on? But To play devils advocate, I say that all snakes begin eating pinkies. They have to have some available calcium in them also. Another point is that if they switch to rat pinks or pups it won't be long before they are eating larger rats with more bone in them. Also comparing Kings to Pythons may not be a fair comparison. Also if calcium is what makes them grow as Jeff says then isn't the fact that they are growing proof of calcium? Again if calcium is the deciding factor can't powdered calcium be added? Which I may start doing cause you guys are making me re-think the whole thing. However I will probably just supliment with calcium when feeding Pinks. Any thoughts?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Jorge....
Have you ever had baby snakes that couldn't cut through their egg because it was too thick?

Adding calcium supplement is not needed....
Feeding when they are hungry is what they need......Mice, Chicks, quail, snakes, lizards, rats....I don't care.....LOL

I get tiny mexicana up to breeding size in 2.5 years like this....I don't need more expensive rats or to do anything different to do so.......But then again....Most of my snake couldn't eat rats...maybe only rat pinks and pups....that is the main reason I choose mice....they have what my snakes need.....apparently.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Well, I have had snakes not hatch after appearing to be fully developed but many times the eggs look thin and almost transparent. I agree that if you feed them when they're hungry they will grow quick. I've just noticed that since I started feeding the Floridana rats, they have really kicked into gear. They are still eating mostly small weanlings and pups, but they aren't pinkies either.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Hi,

Obviously, pinkies of either mice or rats do have calcium, otherwise, as you pointed out, babies would never grow. However, in my animals, the big growth surge is from that juvi stage until adulthood. That is when they seem to need the most mineral support. Of course you kind of have that chicken and egg thing going on where I don't know if my kids are growing faster because they are eating bigger, more mature (and calcified) food, or they are eating bigger, more mature food because they are growing faster and can handle the step up.

Another point to consider is temperatures. My friend FR taught me long ago of the critical role that temps play in varanid growth and development. The truths revealed in his groundbreaking realizations about temperatures absolutely make a huge difference when applied properly with any reptile. I have had monitors, turtles and snakes respond in exactly the same manner to Frank's "Heat'um and Feed'um" philosophy. They grow bigger, grow quicker and produce many, many more clutches in a year. He has proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that when you give reptiles (most obvious in varanids) the ability (choice) to bask at extremely high temps they can absorb and use nutrients (especially minerals) at a much greater rate than similar animals kept with care sheet temps (high of 85F). For example, folks who allow their snakes (pythons or kings, doesn't matter) to bask at temps of 100F or more will support much more growth than folks who offer highs in the mid 80s. The snakes that bask at the higher temps can process food better and more quickly and will have better and quicker growth rates. When higher temps are offered, better absorption might mitigate those issues that Dave brought up in our conversation.

Consequently, when those high temps are offered, correspondingly cool temps should also be offered as my snakes (pythons and kings) will rest comfortably at 60F or lower with a belly full of food when they are not basking at 100ish. In fact, as an example, my female Boelen's python was basking under a flood lamp at 102F yesterday afternoon with a large food lump. Last night at around midnight, I shot her (temp gun) again as she rested peacfully on the floor of her cage at midnight at 62F.

I really don't think it has to be one way or another, regarding prey and I'm sure many people have raised many snakes to adulthood on young, poorly calcified feeders. There are (obviously) many, many factors that contribute to growth rates and as John said, feed them when they are hungry and they'll grow. We can however tweak our husbandry in ways to allow them to max out their grwth potential. Good topic, thanks.

Will

Great Post Will!
That is something I have noticed too when I raised my hot spots from 80F to 90F a few years back....I also cool my room to 70F....They want to eat more and do grow faster.........Plus they have a 20 degree thermal gradient....."Heat-um and Feed-um" certainly works......

I think another key factor that I have noticed since I changed my husbandry from the caresheet version to my own is the fact that humidity plays a key role in the snake's security. It seems that hatchling snakes that I thought were stubborn will feed just by adding a damp sphagnum moss container in with them.......A place to hide...a place away from the dry air. With this confidence the snakes will feed often and grow faster no matter what is fed to them......But getting them to prey that have solid bone structure and hair seems to kick off their growth exponentially......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>Hi,
>>
>>Obviously, pinkies of either mice or rats do have calcium, otherwise, as you pointed out, babies would never grow. However, in my animals, the big growth surge is from that juvi stage until adulthood. That is when they seem to need the most mineral support. Of course you kind of have that chicken and egg thing going on where I don't know if my kids are growing faster because they are eating bigger, more mature (and calcified) food, or they are eating bigger, more mature food because they are growing faster and can handle the step up.
>>
>>Another point to consider is temperatures. My friend FR taught me long ago of the critical role that temps play in varanid growth and development. The truths revealed in his groundbreaking realizations about temperatures absolutely make a huge difference when applied properly with any reptile. I have had monitors, turtles and snakes respond in exactly the same manner to Frank's "Heat'um and Feed'um" philosophy. They grow bigger, grow quicker and produce many, many more clutches in a year. He has proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that when you give reptiles (most obvious in varanids) the ability (choice) to bask at extremely high temps they can absorb and use nutrients (especially minerals) at a much greater rate than similar animals kept with care sheet temps (high of 85F). For example, folks who allow their snakes (pythons or kings, doesn't matter) to bask at temps of 100F or more will support much more growth than folks who offer highs in the mid 80s. The snakes that bask at the higher temps can process food better and more quickly and will have better and quicker growth rates. When higher temps are offered, better absorption might mitigate those issues that Dave brought up in our conversation.
>>
>>Consequently, when those high temps are offered, correspondingly cool temps should also be offered as my snakes (pythons and kings) will rest comfortably at 60F or lower with a belly full of food when they are not basking at 100ish. In fact, as an example, my female Boelen's python was basking under a flood lamp at 102F yesterday afternoon with a large food lump. Last night at around midnight, I shot her (temp gun) again as she rested peacfully on the floor of her cage at midnight at 62F.
>>
>>I really don't think it has to be one way or another, regarding prey and I'm sure many people have raised many snakes to adulthood on young, poorly calcified feeders. There are (obviously) many, many factors that contribute to growth rates and as John said, feed them when they are hungry and they'll grow. We can however tweak our husbandry in ways to allow them to max out their grwth potential. Good topic, thanks.
>>
>>Will
>>
>

Yes I agree it is a good topic. I haven't really been using the Rats for very long so I may be premature in making my comments. However I have noticed that the floridana that have switched over to rats have put on a lot of growth in a short time. I can certainly understand the idea of giving them extra heat to stimulate growth. But I haven't changed anything else in my husbandry. Now my observations are not dovumented with data to proove what I believe is happening, so it's all to be taken with a grain of salt. As you said there are many many factors which we may not be including in the equation. Maybe it's just the fact that the rats seem to stretch the snakes skin more? Where an equal mass of mice would fitt easier and not push the skin outward as much? I don't know it just seems to be the case for me. I have heard others make the same comments before though they must be Christmas shopping now, lol. I will say I haven't used to many rat pinkies on my snakes since the snakes I am pushing are 09's and I was hoping to breed some in the next spring. So they are taking pups and weanlings which would have much more calcium than pinks. John said rats were more expensive but for me they are cheaper since they reach larger size in much less time. That equates to less feed. You can only get so much out of a mouse and then it's not going to grow. In Johns case though I would be using rats either since most of his snakes are somewhat smaller. That I agree with. Very interesting stuff for sure.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Jorge....
Floridana just grow fast....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>Jorge....
>>Floridana just grow fast....LOL

Thank You, Captain Obvious! ooops, did I just call you a name? Sorry, I couldn't help myself. I know they grow fast John, but I had been really pushing these guys so I can hopefully breed some this next year and they were not growing fast enough. I didn't think I was gonna be able to breed any of them. Then after switching to rats, BOOM...I may actually have a shot with a few of them. I will brumate them in January and warm them back up in March. After which they will still have some time to get several meals before I decide if I will breed any.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

The way I'm looking at it is that rats have bigger, more solid bones. The digestive tract of a snake is more complicated than we are led to believe. Though flesh is dissolved by stomach acid at the same rate(rats/mice), rat bones will last longer in the digestive tract. To me that is a good thing, that the acids are always working on something instead of the stomach walls. Its my belief that problem feeders can never strike a ph balance that maximizes the intake and that their acids basically scortch their own stomachs--like an ulcer. I think a good deal of the growth has to do with the balance and efficiency of the stomach as a machine.

>>The way I'm looking at it is that rats have bigger, more solid bones. The digestive tract of a snake is more complicated than we are led to believe. Though flesh is dissolved by stomach acid at the same rate(rats/mice), rat bones will last longer in the digestive tract. To me that is a good thing, that the acids are always working on something instead of the stomach walls. Its my belief that problem feeders can never strike a ph balance that maximizes the intake and that their acids basically scortch their own stomachs--like an ulcer. I think a good deal of the growth has to do with the balance and efficiency of the stomach as a machine.

And........the only way this idea of yours keeps them going is to heat them up so their metabolism along with other bodily functions operation at their prime.........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com