Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Oh, what the hell. Let's see some gentilis too. These two are some of the nicest Kansas animals I've ever seen.

-Dell

Elsworth Co. KS

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Both are exceptional. The 2nd one is almost too clean
snake adventures

"Almost to clean."

Here is another photo of her.

Here is a little "dirtier" Kansas milk, different county then the above milk.

Wow!,....those are BOTH smokers Dell!. I don't think that last one is "dirtier" at all, it just has thick black cross-over's. It certainly doesn't take any of it's beauty away, that's for sure!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I totally agree w/ you Doug. That dark flamethrower gentilis is a peach of a NA milk. The other gentilis posted would be what I would call a quintessential looking gentilis.

-Dell

That thing is simply flawless and symmetrical in every respect bud!. One of the nicest I have ever seen to be quite honest.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

They're both beautiful in their own right.

--Dennis

Those are outstanding Dell.

Joe

Good to have some activity on the forum, too. Thanks for getting things moving.

Kansas gentilis sure are variable, aren't they?! Those particular animals are stunning - I feel that we're privelaged to work with them.

-Cole

Here's a few photos of Kansas animals in the wild.

Very nice! Would I be wrong to characterize those as integrades?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Tony wrote:
Very nice! Would I be wrong to characterize those as integrades?

Tony, I believe you would be wrong w/ that characterization as the locality would be smack dab in the middle of gentilis land.
What are you seeing that reads intergrade to you? And what subspecies would be the intergrade? syspila, or celaenops perhaps?

-Dell

of milk field finds, but I have not yet experienced the joy of producing something so incredible. I would have to imagine that it would be pretty cool.
snake adventures

First you have to realize that my experience with these is limited to one trip some 20 years ago and what's in the perterson field guide. Anyway I asked because:

1) the sited county, if I recall is in the eastern half of KS. As I recall the flint hills run ~ through the center of the state and my experience was that syspila were east of the hills and gentilis were west of the hills.

2) I've always looked at gentilis and syspila like thayeri, same snake different phase. Milk snake phasa thayeri and syspila are both found in the easter more mesic part of the range while leonis phase thayeri and gentilis are found in the more arid western end of the range.

3) I've always seen thought of classic gentilis as having much less red in the pattern.

BTW my question wasn't a dig on you, I'm questioning my own assumptions as much as sking for clarification from you.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Tony, let me start by saying that I didn't take your questions or comments as a dig at me at all. I've always respected your opinions and perspectives.

To your first point: The County the milk is tied back to is Elsworth Co. and it is a fair distance from the Flint hills, at least a full County away from where the Flint hills start. The Flint hills I would consider in the eastern half of Kansas. And I believe that the syspila influence doesn't show it's self on to gentilis until the eastern side of the Flint hills, at least prominently anyway.

As to your second point: I have to agree w/ you that gentilis and syspila are the same snake but different phase, but in my opinion (mind you this is my own opinion) syspila are a very different animal from gentilis. Sure they inhabit the same type of life cycles as other NA milks, and there is integrating between the two subspecies, but to me syspila are so much different in looks from gentilis that I've always considered them quite distinct from each other in a lot of ways. I'm not sure I can express myself in print well enough to make my point here. But it is how view syspila compared w/ other NA milks.
I find gentilis to be so closely like multistrata and taylori it's a wonder to me they have been sub-divided from gentilis. Oh, and it took me a long time to admit this to myself, and I still twitch when I do admit it.

Your third point: You make a valid point that a classic gentilis should have less red in the saddles. Most gentilis don't show that much red.

Thanks for your comments, and questions. You've made me reevaluate some of my thinking of NA milks.

-Dell

Cool. Mostly I was thinking that elsworth was smack in the flint hills and animals from there I tend to think of as integrades.

Would be interested in why you think them so different from syspila. It would seem to me that the difference is largely driven by habitat.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

those sure are nice, Dell. I love the head patterns on those!

Dave
DNS Reptiles - Milk Snakes