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nile monitor/water monitor differences

Reptilegirly Dec 10, 2010 11:15 PM

Hey, I am new to monitors. I fell in love with them at reptile shows and finally decided to get some.

I got two monitors. The first, a baby nile monitor about a foot long. And the second got from someone else and I was told it is probably a baby nile monitor, but that it could be a water monitor, he didnt know for sure.

They have the same design on them and they look alike except for their head shapes. One has a long slender head, and the other has a short stumpy head.

They are housed together for now and both are doing well. But if they are different should I seperate them?

Can anyone help me by explaining the difference between niles and water monitors as babies

Replies (35)

elidogs Dec 10, 2010 11:59 PM

You should probably take them back to the sellers you got them from. Both species grow to be huge and eat enoromous amounts of dead rats. The niles and waters are powerful and not a good starter monitor. The niles are also bad tempered and shy. I do not keep them.

You want to start out with something that grows to the small to medium size range. You are not ready for nile monitors don't take it the wrong way I'm not ready for them either. You have to have a HUGE cage to keep them in

reptilegirly Dec 11, 2010 02:10 AM

well i bought them both at a show, so taking them back is impossible.

I do appreciate the concern, but I do understand the care/work/money that goes into them. I know they are very different from snake care (i currently have 9 snakes, 4 venomous) and I know that they have mean-ass junkyard dog temperments. But that doesnt scare me, since I know that from the start.

I am most concerned over whether they are niles or waters, because I have read that niles are a semi-aquatic monitor that is also semi-arboreal as babies, and I want to know if this type of enclosure would also be ideal for a water monitor.

elidogs Dec 11, 2010 09:30 AM

You keep venomous snakes......ok good luck.

reptilegirly Dec 11, 2010 10:35 AM

There is really no danger with venomous snakes if you know what you are doing. Sure, if you are some kid who thinks holding a rattlesnake is a rush...then you are an idiot. But there are plenty of responsible venomoid owners out there. Owners who know that these animals are not to be handled and that they are merely an "aww, look at that gorgeous asshole" snake and not something that will ever love you back.

Calparsoni Dec 11, 2010 01:52 PM

I find the statement "There is really no danger with venomous snakes if you know what you are doing." to be rather interesting since there are several people whom I know by acquaintance or know personally who work with venomous (not venomoid btw those are altered snakes.....and equally stupid to own.)reptiles. Most of them work with them on a daily basis and have for years and all of them been bitten.
In particular I know George VanHorn rather well, he owns the serpentarium ib St. cloud Fl.. I'm sure he's had a few more bites over the years than the king cobra bite he had 15yrs. ago, but according to you since he "knew what he was doing" it shouldn't have happened. I know Tom Crutchfield has been bitten a few times as well and according to your logic those bites shouldn't have happened either.
Btw for the record I have kept very few hots over the years (occasional pygmy rattler or coral snake as I was growing up) I think unless you have a legitimate interest in them you are playing with fire and most hot keepers would agree with that.
I have however kept water monitors for almost 20 yrs and kept a nile (my first monitor.) for over 15yrs until it passed on several years back. You have a lot to learn about keeping monitors and as others have said on here there are other smaller monitor species that are much better choices to start with. the attitude you seem to have is not a good to have with these to species of varanids as you have a lot to learn and learn fast. Hopefully you will learn it without losing some fingers or worse yet a hand......but I guess as long as you "know what you are doing" that won't happen right???

reptilegirly Dec 11, 2010 06:22 PM

i respect where you are coming from. I have had venomous snakes for about nine years now and have never even had a close call. cage cleanings are done with a minimum of two people present and I was origionally trained by a professional rattlesnake catcher. Through extensive precautions, training and no hands on interaction I have been and will remain bite free...

HappyHillbilly Dec 12, 2010 09:31 PM

Cal,
What the H--- are they smokin'? Wow!

"There is really no danger with venomous snakes if you know what you are doing. Sure, if you are some kid who thinks holding a rattlesnake is a rush...then you are an idiot. But there are plenty of responsible venomoid owners out there."

A bit confused, are we? Do you keep "venonmous venomous" snakes or "non-venomous venomous" snakes?

This thread plays like a DWS rerun!

"I think this is one of the is your refrigerator running go catch it kind of threads."

elidogs,
I think you're onto something.

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American


www.natures-signature.com

MichelleRogers Dec 12, 2010 09:56 PM

Im still laughing but a bit confused.
-----
Michelle
www.AssortedSerpents.com
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all.

elidogs Dec 12, 2010 11:43 PM

elidogs,
I think you're onto something.

Later!
HH

Regardless it was a interesting thread. LOL.

None of the monitor species are easy to keep all are at the intermediate and advanced level for reptile hobbyests. That being said I try to gather as much info from each thread as I can.

Sometimes people will say certain species are easy to keep but they are usually advanced keepers talking to their peers. And beginners read that and think it applies to them. I have been guilty of that in the past. When I first got into monitors I wanted a black throat. Thankfully I did more research!

SpyderPB6 Dec 13, 2010 12:31 AM

Ya know I'm not trying to fuel the flames here, but...

I almost think that people would do better with monitors if they have no reptile experience. None....hmmmm.

Anyone wanna chew on that one?

Cheers,
Mike.

Mike H. Dec 13, 2010 12:53 AM

>>Ya know I'm not trying to fuel the flames here, but...
>>
>>I almost think that people would do better with monitors if they have no reptile experience. None....hmmmm.
>>
>>Anyone wanna chew on that one?

Seriously....I really think you have a great point!

No prior experience means...

1. they won't just automatically use 80+ degrees and think a 90 hot spot is sufficient.

2. they won't automatically assume a 40 gallon breeder tank is all they need.

3. they won't assume astroturf, aspen, pine, light dome, water dish, and a hide equals a set-up they can brag about.

4. with no prior experience to build on, they will be forced to do their homework on proper husbandry and not just keep their monitor in a typical snake set-up.
Image
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

MikesMonitors Dec 13, 2010 08:57 AM

Mike
Sorry I have not been in contact with you and Jan.
Glad to see you still have your sav.
Hows the cage working out for you?
Love you guys!

S.W.W.C!!
P.S I made friends with my weights again.
Mike

-----
Mike's Monitors!

Mike H. Dec 13, 2010 10:34 AM

No worries Mike. As always, we WILL get together for the holidays. I'll be off 10 or 11 days so will definitely make the trip at least once.

I've been picking up the pace on the weights lately too!

>>Mike
>>Sorry I have not been in contact with you and Jan.
>>Glad to see you still have your sav.
>>Hows the cage working out for you?
>>Love you guys!
>>
>>S.W.W.C!!
>>P.S I made friends with my weights again.
>>Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>-----
>>Mike's Monitors!
-----
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

reptilegirly Dec 13, 2010 11:44 AM

I own venomous and venomoids, but I know far more people who are responsible with their venomoids, than people who are responsible and still have venomous animals. I' m not saying everyone should have venomous snakes, I was just trying to say that if you give a deadly animal the respect it deserves then you do not need to blindly fear it

moe64 Dec 11, 2010 12:02 AM

If i am not mistaken Water Monitors have nostrils that are closer to the end of the snout whereas Niles are about halfway between the end of the snout and eye.Ornate Monitors are closely related to Nile Monitors but slightly boxier snout and similar body patterning.But just goggle it there are lots of pictures of both species-hope you realize what you are getting into-these are expensive monitors to keep,but easy to keep with the right husbandry. Moe

moe64 Dec 11, 2010 12:52 AM

Elidogs is right these are not beginner monitors.I should have said they are easy to keep but grow to large sizes,and the Niles like Elidogs says can have nasty temperments.Water Monitors are second in size to Komodo Dragons and require room sized enclosures.Both eat alot-very expensive.

reptilegirly Dec 11, 2010 02:25 AM

luckily I have plenty of space for them when they get older. I was origionally planning on getting an American Alligator, so I had a everything planned out for that, but decided on the nile's, which are actually ornates apparently due to their pink tongues. As for now I have them in a 29 gallon tank with a custom plexiglass topper to keep in the heat and humidity.

I have two mice colonies and one rat colony currently and once my four redtail's get a little bigger I have both rabbit and guinea pig and chicken colonies planned, so I should be good on food.

their nasty temperments is actually what turned me onto them the most. I find having a mutual respect has worked so far, so I plan to keep up the very limited hands-on interaction. They have both calmed down a lot now that they are not being touched as much as before I got them

elidogs Dec 11, 2010 09:33 AM

I think this is one of the is your refrigerator running go catch it kind of threads.

moe64 Dec 11, 2010 09:58 AM

you have to give people the benefit of doubt,what harm is it to try to help,this is a site for monitors-some good can come from this either way.

from the experiences of a lot of people- if you leave your animal alone,don't try to force handle it,bribe it with food to gain it's trust,allow it to interact with you on it's terms-you could get a calm Ornate.That's what you should strive for,but it's about the individual monitor so nothing is guaranteed.
You say your monitors are getting calmer,that isn't neccessarily a good thing-vigorous alert and fight or flight are things you look for when picking a healthy monitor.As far as outgoing qualities,less shy,these are usually qualities both these species share,but that takes time.

reptilegirly Dec 11, 2010 10:27 AM

i should have been more clear... by "calmer" I meant they have started basking when I am still in the room and no longer run and hide at my first sign of movement.

I had to leave them alone (except feeding) for about a week before the one came out. And it took about two weeks before the second one would not run away. Now I can put my hand in the cage to change the water and to feed without them freaking out and burying themselves.

Unfortunetely there aren't a real lot of monitor owners in PA, so information on them is scarce here. Thank you for the help.

basinboa Dec 11, 2010 11:37 AM

Hello,

Water and Nile monitors may look similar for those not familiar with monitors, but they are pretty different.

Niles have the nostrils halfway between the eyes and the tip of the snout:

Water monitors have the nostrils close to the tip of the snout:

You should post pictures of them. Maybe they aren't niles or even waters.

lwcamp Dec 11, 2010 02:27 PM

>>Hey, I am new to monitors. I fell in love with them at
>>reptile shows and finally decided to get some.
>>
>>I got two monitors. The first, a baby nile monitor about
>>a foot long. And the second got from someone else and I
>>was told it is probably a baby nile monitor, but that it
>>could be a water monitor, he didnt know for sure.

First, welcome to the club! Second, boy are you in for it!

Reading the other replies, you seem to have figured out that at least one, possibly both, are ornates.

>>They are housed together for now and both are doing well.
>>But if they are different should I seperate them?

I've only ever kept two ornates. Both of them were bullies toward other monitors (even their own kind), and would try to crush their heads by biting them. Other types of monitors were far more tolerant of each other. Maybe this was just the individual ornates I had, and other ornates are sweet tempered and loving toward others of their kind. If it was me, and if the size difference between them was not too large, I would keep them together to let them interact and make their lives more interesting (you can imagine it must be pretty boring to be a large, intelligent lizard in a small box). Only if they were behaving overly aggressive toward each other would I separate them.

And just for the basics (the stuff newbies tend to get wrong) - a thermal gradient from about 60 C on the hot end to about 25 C on the cold end (that's about 150 F to 75 F). Cover the top of the cage so heat and humidity don't escape. Keep the humidity up. Use a deep substrate of diggable dirt so they can dig their own burrows. If they spend a lot of time in the water dish the humidity is too low or the dirt is bad dirt that is not suitable for burrows (yes, both species are semi-aquatic - but they forage in the water and sleep in their burrows. If they sleep or rest in the water, your husbandry is wrong). Also, monitors are not snakes so even though you are an expert at keeping snakes and everything, you are still new to monitors and your snake experience will not help you. If you treat them like snakes they will languish for a while and die. This is the very bare minimum - there's a lot more nuances to it all - but this can help you not make the most common mistakes I see time after time.

And good luck. The most wonderfully tempered, sweet natured, and intelligent monitor I ever owned was a water monitor. It was an all around amazing reptile. If they were not so dang huge (and if they were legal in Washington state) I would get another one in a heartbeat. If you do have a water monitor, you are in for a treat if you can keep it right. If you've got Niles - not so much.

Luke

Mike H. Dec 13, 2010 12:42 AM

>>>>Hey, I am new to monitors. I fell in love with them at
>>>>reptile shows and finally decided to get some.
>>>>
>>>>I got two monitors. The first, a baby nile monitor about
>>>>a foot long. And the second got from someone else and I
>>>>was told it is probably a baby nile monitor, but that it
>>>>could be a water monitor, he didnt know for sure.
>>
>>First, welcome to the club! Second, boy are you in for it!
>>
>>Reading the other replies, you seem to have figured out that at least one, possibly both, are ornates.
>>
>>>>They are housed together for now and both are doing well.
>>>>But if they are different should I seperate them?
>>
>>I've only ever kept two ornates. Both of them were bullies toward other monitors (even their own kind), and would try to crush their heads by biting them. Other types of monitors were far more tolerant of each other. Maybe this was just the individual ornates I had, and other ornates are sweet tempered and loving toward others of their kind. If it was me, and if the size difference between them was not too large, I would keep them together to let them interact and make their lives more interesting (you can imagine it must be pretty boring to be a large, intelligent lizard in a small box). Only if they were behaving overly aggressive toward each other would I separate them.
>>
>>And just for the basics (the stuff newbies tend to get wrong) - a thermal gradient from about 60 C on the hot end to about 25 C on the cold end (that's about 150 F to 75 F). Cover the top of the cage so heat and humidity don't escape. Keep the humidity up. Use a deep substrate of diggable dirt so they can dig their own burrows. If they spend a lot of time in the water dish the humidity is too low or the dirt is bad dirt that is not suitable for burrows (yes, both species are semi-aquatic - but they forage in the water and sleep in their burrows. If they sleep or rest in the water, your husbandry is wrong). Also, monitors are not snakes so even though you are an expert at keeping snakes and everything, you are still new to monitors and your snake experience will not help you. If you treat them like snakes they will languish for a while and die. This is the very bare minimum - there's a lot more nuances to it all - but this can help you not make the most common mistakes I see time after time.
>>
>>And good luck. The most wonderfully tempered, sweet natured, and intelligent monitor I ever owned was a water monitor. It was an all around amazing reptile. If they were not so dang huge (and if they were legal in Washington state) I would get another one in a heartbeat. If you do have a water monitor, you are in for a treat if you can keep it right. If you've got Niles - not so much.
>>
>>Luke
-----
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

FR Dec 13, 2010 09:43 AM

Niles and waters are great starter monitors, they are also great ender monitors.

As babies, they are fairly hard to kill, thats why they are a mainstay of the pet monitor trade. Yet, they do die. 99% of all imported die before the next year.

As mentioned, monitors, all of them, are not and do not prosper with normal reptile care. Thats why this person(the refrigerator) cannot find anyone local. Even if every friggin petshop carries them, in every city they are legal. They are available everywhere, but not kept successfully anywhere. Ok, there are a few, but so few, and those mainly only keep them alive.

Back to the this keeper, are you happy to keep an animal that lives by doing(behavioral), stuffed in a tiny cage, its entire life. Will you be happy knowing that monitors are more like birds.

Instead of flying, monitors freedom is doing. They are unlike your other reptiles in that, they are socially complicated and interactions are WHAT THEY LIVE FOR. What gets them HOT, is behavior, the actual doing of things.

Snakes are a very very bad comparison, because they do not have legs. Some species are fairly mobile, but you do not keep those types. You are experienced with species, that spend most of their lifes in very small areas. This is key to understanding varanids of all types.

With varanids, no matter how well you set up their cages, They quickly become bored and stagnet. They are behavioral.

You the keep must make sure, they stay behavioral. Thats not so hard, except you do not know what that means, do you?

Also, like so many before you, you mentioned you have snakes, which now you understand is not a good thing. Then you mention you have hots, which is very very meaningless. Like it suppose to tell us, you know what danger is.

The problem with that is, there is danger, and its not to you. Your not the one thats going to die an awful painful death. Its to them, They are what is most likely going to suffer.

Then you said, an ideal cage. You also mentioned semi, aboreal, an aquatic. Well both of those species are that, and so much more. About aboreal, if you live in a house, your not going to do that. Aboreal means up, not a cage taller then its long. About aquatic, it means a body of water the animal can travel distances in, not curl up in, as there is no room to actually use your flattened tail as a fin and swim. To swim means to travel many times your own lenght. NOT SIT IN WATER.

So forget about it(those two)

You forget the main part, those two monitors live in HOLES, that is what they do. Their shelters are their homes, like your house is your home. You do more in your house then sleep. They do more in their shelters then sleep. Its their home, which means its a place of safety, security, comfort(they can be at ease) and sleep.

This burrow thing is what most if not nearly all varanid keepers miss. They think its only a bed. its not. Its their home and is the center of their life. Like your home is to you. Take it away and your a street person, take their home away and they are street monitors.

I imagine, you do not get this, but someone will, it will turn on a lite in someones head.

The point is, there is no way on earth, unless you are a dupont, that your going to address this. Its their home thats important.

Which is why smaller monitors are a much better choice. A burrow is a hole that is AT LEAST SEVERAL TIMES THE Lenght of the animals, if not, its not a burrow. They burrow, or shelter to a point of complete darkness. Thats that security thing. How your you feel is your house had no doors, and was open to all. think about it.

Its not that you cannot wrestle one down and be able to controll it. Heck, anyone can. Again, I do not care if you get hurt, you most likely deserve it. I worry about the animal. What about the animal. This is very important, what about the animal?

Monitors require lots of heat, which is hard to do and expensive even with small monitors. Large monitors, forget about it. How do you provide a 150F hot spot for a six foot monitor? in a cage. The result is, monitors with the middle of their bodies burned up. Its common here. just look around.

Monitors are like birds and have a bird or mammal metabolism. Which also means they eat alot. Like those two monitors will consume more then all your snakes put together, "DAILY". Which means in one day. Day after day.

Monitors grow quickly if treated decent. Both of those should grow to six feet in a year.

lastly, all everyone here is trying to do is help you. You are naive, hopefully not stupid. We are not trying to tell you your stupid, we are trying to tell you from experience, that you would be better off, going in another direction. And I mean you, because those monitors are already doomed.

Are you the exceptional keeper that will do well, could be. But from what you said, the best advice is for you to go another direction. After all, you said you fell in love with them. In this case, what does love have to do with it. As with love, respect is far more important. You need to respect them, then if you do well, you can love them later. Cheers

reptilegirly Dec 13, 2010 11:21 AM

That all makes a lot of sense, thank you. I am going to look for ways to improve their current environment while I build their bigger one. I am worried that they would get lost in a giant habitat now though, as I just got them and they are fairly small.

SHvar Dec 22, 2010 02:04 AM

Getting lost in big environments out of your sight. You see, they enjoy being hidden, and avoiding stress caused by keepers that are constantly able to watch them. Seriously, are you able to provide an environment large enough for a single monitor that grows from 6ft to over 8ft? Now, consider that you said you got 2 like this, both different species, they require different cages separate from each other.
Good luck in your decisions.
Heres almost 7ft of female monitor that everyone said would grow to 4 or so feet, lol. And consider 5ft long at 1 year old, and it only slows a bit from there.

Image

volleyballjoe Dec 13, 2010 10:01 AM

Ok, I dont post often on hear but this is scary.
First you need to identify the speceis you have. Second baby waters and baby niles are a lot different. Baby waters are one of the most shy and easily stressed monitors there are. You can find pictures of ornate and nile and waters all over the web. If you can't tell what you have, give them up, period. Most waters never make it to there adult size because people dont know what they're doing with them.
If your keeping them together in a 29 gallon aquarium its too small. Monitors are active and intelligent. I kept my pair of baby sulfurs in an 8x4 enclosure.Mt 4ft juveniles are now individually housed in 9 ft enclosures, and there not even a year old yet. Provide lots of hides and multiple basking spots, with visual breaks. You need deep substrate for them to dig in, and a large water dish. You will have to clean it dailey with two lizards in it. Your lizards will soak in dirty water all day, but won't drink it. Just because they have a bowl of dirty water they can still become dehydrated.
There are a lot of things you dont know about keeping monitors, and the ones that will suffer from your trial and error are the animals. You are already going about it backwards. You obviusly purchased them on impulse or you would have done your research and known what animals you were getting. American Alligators and monitors are nothing alike. The temperatures for one are completely different.
There is some good advice in this thread, I would quit telling people about all the animals you have experience with, and listen to them about the ones you don't.
Google salvator, there are some forums out there specifically for waters. I know there are a couple of people on here and other forums that have a lot of experience with niles also.
You won't find a lot of patience from people who care about these animals if your not willing to swallow your pride and acknowledge your in over your head. It's happened to us all at some point. Just don't let the animals suffer from your inexperience.

reptilegirly Dec 13, 2010 11:31 AM

you're right, I bought them on impulse. Luckilly they, both Ornate monitors according to pictures/descriptions, are eating well and already starting to grow. I owe that to the wonderful people who posted earlier in the post. I know that monitor care and snake care are very different. I work at a Petco and talk snake owners out of buying our Savannah monitor all the time because they think feeding it once a week is a hassle.
Please excuse my cockiness at first, I have been trying to ask local pet places and even a local "reptile vet" about proper care and their only response is always "get rid of it." and I was just really hoping that you all would not just do the same

volleyballjoe Dec 13, 2010 01:46 PM

I'm not saying get rid of them, unless your unwilling to learn. That would make me a hypocrite. All I own is large varanids. I just think its important to understand what your getting into. Mr. Retes is right(I hope I spelled that right), most of the larger species never make it to adulthood or are kept in terrible conditions. Most people grossly underestimate the amount of space that is needed. My 12x14 building that will be built for my pair of sulfurs is minimal in my opinion. I live in an area of the country where I will be able to build larger outdoor enclosures for them to live part of the year in. Truthfully not even most zoos provide enough space. Most of the nicer setups I've seen for adult niles are rooms converted into enclosures. Keep that in mind. They will be 4 plus feet in the first year. The first cages I built cost me around 1800.00 in materials. The ones I'm working on now are more like 4000.00. You will spend so much more on your animals for food and housing than you can imagine. My monthly cost of feeding 1.1 sulfurs, 1.1 komainis, and 1.0 salvadorii is 120.00 month, and they're all yearlings. It will probably be around 200.00 for adults. If I do everything right they may live twenty plus years. It is long term commitment.

elidogs Dec 16, 2010 09:36 AM

Monitors are more rewarding then snakes and more interesting. If you look on the snake forums they typically are talking about how brilliant the colors are on their new baby snakes. Or the latest morphs or planned breedings. Monitor forums are typically about things like "help my savannah monitor is dying".

So monitors are not easy to keep, you have to have the right care sheets and information then you have to go over a steep learning curve. Then and only then do they become "easy" to keep.

On a side note I don't know how deep of substrate people are providing from their large monitors. If you have a six foot monitor are you going to put enough soil in their for them to dig a 15 foot deep hole? Not saying people aren't doing that but if people are doing that, I would like to see pictures of that.

volleyballjoe Dec 16, 2010 01:33 PM

I don't think most keepers provide enough substrate for their monitors. I wonder though, do all monitors dig deep burrows? I know dark secure hides, as well as, visual breaks are used and needed. My salvadorii seems to dig more than my salvator. Salvadoriis are supposed to be arboreal. Maybe a new thread is needed for this topic.

robyn@ProExotics Dec 16, 2010 02:56 PM

Monitors don't dig 15 ft deep burrows. They may only be a few feet "deep", but indeed 15 foot LONG.

In our 10 ft circular troughs, we measure burrows up to 12 ft long. That is in just 2 ft of good soil.
-----
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elidogs Dec 16, 2010 08:26 PM

Thanks for the clarification.... that would suck having to build a base 15 feet deep.

volleyballjoe Dec 17, 2010 08:01 AM

What types of monitors are you reffering to Robyn? I know you guys have kept Black throats and salvators. Does one burrow more than the other?

robyn@ProExotics Dec 17, 2010 04:02 PM

That particular setup was for Blackthroats, they burrow quite a bit.
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