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I need help to identify this kingsnake, she is very healthy, but I have no clue what kind of kingsnake she could be. I have never seen anything like her before. I am completely stumped, if anyone can help me out, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks for looking!

hmm.... looks to be a variable king..
L.mexicana thayeri.

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Ok a variable king, alright I got another question. They guy I bought her from also gave me a grey banded and said they have had clutches in the past, what kind of babies would that make? When I asked him he said he sold the eggs because he couldn't incubate them.

First off, I call bull on the guy you bought them from stating he sold the eggs because he couldnt incubate them. Either he gave you that line because he thought the pair would be more valuable as breeders but he never actually bred them, or tried breeding them and only got dud eggs. Any time you radically move a snake egg after being layed, it kills the embryo. They cannot be turned or moved like chicken eggs and I seriously doubt they would survive any type of tranport unless moved very carefully by car. No way they would survive shipping of any kind.

The snake in hand appears to be a thayeri or variable king. Its latin name is Lampropeltis mexicana mexicana. The greybanded kings are related and part of the "mexicana' complex, but are a different species, Lampropeltis alterna. If you bred the variable to the greyband you would get hybrids that many would say are WORTHLESS. Some hobbyists do embrace hybrid animals due to their uniqueness. However, many frown upon them due to loss of background information and the passing of these hybrid animals as pure by ignorant or scummy dealers/breeders trying to make a buck calling an animal anything they have to to sell it.

Well that is great to know! Thanks for all the info! Good thing I got them for their beauty and not to breed! Haha! Some people's kids, right! I'm glad that she has a type/species I can call her now. Again, thanks for all the info, and I hope you all have a great chris mas

Without a head shot that snake cant be positively IDd to not be a grayband king as well. Most times snakes that are sold together are a sexed pr of the same ssp.. If they were bred together they would produce intergrade kings, NOT hybrids. With most of the gray band breeders being locality NUTZ generic gray bands have a place in the hobby without any snooty person calling other breeders "scummy". Also let me add a story about kingsnake eggs.
About 20 years ago I had met Chuck the snake man from MD. He bred a TON of chain kings as well as coastals and other ssp.. Well, coming from Mass I took the train down there and purchased his chain king eggs for $5ea and took em home on the train to Massachusetts. I had better than a 80% hatch rate so I was plenty happy. Eggs can be more resilient than you think.

Well, I like all this info, I think that the more you know the better. Lol! Must admit I'm new with king snakes but I have bred ball pythons before. I do have a head shot and if you can give me more info on integrades I'd appreciate it. Thank you!

Well I would say Mark was right initially and it does look like a Thayeri. Now it and Alterna(gray band)are both in the mexicana complex classification. "Pure" thayeri are all but impossible to get being from Mexico. And though you could breed them I can assure you they would be even in less demand than the rocks you have mentioned breeding already. You have bred snakes before, its not a "new" thing to you. Not for the reason most dislike intergrades, but for the demand I would suggest that if you did want to breed either snake that you could find suitable mates without much expense in the classifieds. You put alot of time and effort into producing babies, its a shame when no one wants your products. Its well worth the $100 it will cost you to pair them up properly, and it will save you soooo much time and aggrevation in dealing with the intergrade HATERS out there.

I'm not so sure that animal isn't already an intergrade/mix? It's dificult to tell from those pics.

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I thought the term integrade referred to subspecies crosses, not species crosses. No taxonomy expert, so I probably stand corrected in use of the term hybrid instead of integrade.

Some more info for Jenn. There are actually highly sought out and "valuable" natural integrades that occur. These are usually associated with variants that naturally occur in certain localities. They are established and unique and represent a natural history of that area and animals. Integradation and even hybridization happens in the wild, probably more than most realize.

I would also bet my last dollar that if a natural and established integrade/hybrid population of variable and greybanded kings were found (or ANY naturally occurring integrade/hybrid population of animals), they would become VERY popular. But ONLY if the integrades being bought and sold could be verified as ORIGINATING from that location. Only the integrades from THAT area, and not man-made crosses using snakes from other areas, would represent the unique natural history of that area that produced these animals. This is what would make them valuable to some. Its kind of a weird mind-set, but most naturalists, ecologists, and herpers follow this mind-set because of the uniqueness in nature these animals represent.

As far as my BS comment regarding sale and tranport of snake eggs, I guess I have become too modern in my advancing age to remember a time when fedex and other similar services were not available, and you could take a bus, train, or car to a herpers house and bring home a clutch of eggs to set up in your own incubation unit.

rest assured that back in the day snake eggs were indeed bought, sold, and shipped via REA Express and USPS....
Now just how many survived to hatching?? I won't guess but I'm sure a few did..
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

>>rest assured that back in the day snake eggs were indeed bought, sold, and shipped via REA Express and USPS....
>>Now just how many survived to hatching?? I won't guess but I'm sure a few did..

Mark,
Didn't you once post a price list on here that had eggs for sale in the list of items that were priced out?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

probably....

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Haha! How times have changed...What year was this?

It was from Ray Singleton's price list (that I remember being absurdly too high priced)...
around 1970 or so...
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

This shouldnt come as a surprise to me, but it does LOL!! Too wild to think you could actually order eggs like that!! Then again, I remember you could buy monkeys and exotic animals from the back of comic books too when I was a kid. If I remember correctly, squirrel monkeys were only 16 bucks or so!!

I could go on about it all. I worked for Ray helping out and cleaning cages.Rode my bike to his place before he moved to Riverview.
My squirell monkey was $8.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

I remember a pet store here in Modesto,(Ca) that, back in late 70's - early 80's, used to sell babies racoons and skunks, and quarter-size hatchling red ear sliders for around a buck. Nowadays, this is unheard of! It is now illegal in Cali to sell water turtles under 4", except for educational purposes.

Yeah, times have certainly changed.

I grew up in New Orleans and as a kid in the 60s and 70s my mom took us shopping on Canal Street, downtown. I remember going to the Woolworth store and seeing baby sliders and alligators for sale in what was the "Pet Department" back in the day LOL!! Fond memories riding home on the bus with a baby turtle in an inflated plastic bag like you get with fish today LOL!! Not sure how much mom paid for them back then, but we usually got the plastic tub with the palm tree in the middle LMFAO!!

I remember in the early 60's I read an ad in the back of Sports Afield magazine. I sent $1 to the Louisiana Biological Center for 4 anoles (including tax). They came in a beer can with the end cut out and covered with cheese cloth. Back then I lived in Tennessee. When I pulled off the end they went flying in every direction of my Mom's kitchen, and the house was evacuated till I caught them all again. Good times!

--Dennis

Unless all the books I have are wrong the variable king is L. mexicana thayeri, not L. mexicana mexicana as stated earlier.
theOLDherper
Pete

I think Mark in his second post simply misspoke. In his first post he correctly Id's the snake as L.m.t. Probably distracted or in haste when he said L.m.m ... happens to me all the time... being distracted that is.

Gerry

I was under the impression the subspecies designations of thayeri and greeri went away and the three (mexicana, thayeri, greeri) and now the same snake genetically and therefore L.m.mexicana. Thayeri and greeri basically referring to variations/types and usually presented in paranthesis, but are not longer valid subspecies.

well, going by the intergrade stuff, and what i understand about it, these two snakes are from around the same area. i dont know the history of these snakes, but i am in and from new mexico, close to the texas border, which seems to be the area where these types of snakes acctually live and possibly cross. i had done a little research, now that i know what to look for, and i beleive that the thayeri IS a cross with grey banded anyway. i havent seen a thayeri on the internet that look like her with the grey sides and greyish head.the orange runs into the grey, making a different pattern.

New Mexico may be a bit too west for alternas, and too north for thayeri, but I am not sure at all. Your post above about not being sure if the thayeri is a thayeri or thayeri/alterna mix brought up a good point many integrade haters throw around. NOT knowing the genetics of an animal can cause some serious heartburn when offspring arrive that do not look like they are one species or another!!! You could have an alterna/thayeri mix that looks completely like a pure alterna or pure thayeri. If you were to ad that animal into your pure alterna or thayeri breeding colonies and started producing questionable animals or animals that were beyond a doubt NOT pure, imagine how duped and cheated you would feel. That is the reason these animals are not popular or liked by SOME hobbyists. Lets face facts, SOME dealers will knowingly sell an integrade as pure to move his stock and make money. Just like SOME car dealers knowingly sell a defective car. Just because the buyer cant tell doesnt make it right and honest disclosure is key. There is a market for integrade and hybrid animals, especially some of the color and pattern morphs that absolutely cannot be obtained otherwise(Jungle corns and creamsickle corns are prime examples, or carpalls and superballs for you boid fans). What cheeses the "purists" is that these animals can knowingly and unknowingly get lost and misindentified in the shuffle and ruin a pure breeding colony in the future.

Your wrong, Try again. Thayeri occur south of Monterrey mex. at elevation.

Alterna occur in various forms, North of Monterrey.

The name variable king is applied because thayeri are polymorphic. Which means, they have many colors and patterns.

Yours looks very much like a wild phenotype. Most on the internet are captive productions that are not phenotypic. Which means, they do not occur/survive in nature. The grey is a very common sign of age. And that animals appears very old.

My bet is, you have two retired breeders that some one is trying to recycle. The good part is, they live forever, so take good care of them.

Also check with your state wildlife laws. Alterna are of some concern in NM. Protected in some areas. My friend Charlie Painter, is the state reptile guy,(game and fish) so ask for him, hes a very good fella.

On a side note, he and I are working on a fun project together.

I think the actual point is, there is no value in rationalizing whether they are crosses, or natural crosses, or whatever. This hybrid, cross, intergrade thing is a pile of poop. Unless those animals are local specific, then they are great captive snakes. If for some reason you sell them or their offspring, then simply tell the history as you know it.

All captive snakes in the hobby are not of any local value. They are all just pet snakes. Local is important on a toe tag. That is, on preserved specimens. Or on research animals. After that, its only in hobbyists heads.

An example for those who care. Most captive local thayeri, do not represent wild phenotypic "thayeri", they have been captive bred to a point that there is no longer any phenotypic resemblence. As we are talking about color and pattern, if they do not represent what occurs naturally, then they are NOT NATURAL.

>> An example for those who care. Most captive local thayeri, do not represent wild phenotypic "thayeri", they have been captive bred to a point that there is no longer any phenotypic resemblence. As we are talking about color and pattern, if they do not represent what occurs naturally, then they are NOT NATURAL.

Correct....for a decade or two folks bred for the yellows and oranges unlike "most" wild phenotypes.....Although I have seen a few pictures of wild orange leonis phase thayeri, they still aren't as clean as these line bred orange thayeri in captivity.

This is all the result of not being able to introduce new blood (wc) into breeding projects. If we could bring wild Mexican kings or any Mexican reptile into the US legally wild phenotypes would occur in captivity still today......

Recently though Frank many thayeri breeders have reverted back to Earth tones and wild type phenotypes. They are still great animals to work with......Especially at hatch time....You never know what looks/patterns they'll produce.....They keep me interested and not jaded!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

IMO, regardless of how far removed a captive bred phenotype may look from the wild types, it should still be (hopefully) genotypically the same. Remove the slick paint job and there is not difference. I personally dont want to buy a phenotypically cool looking thayeri and find out its got alterna blood in it that made it cool looking. If these pure genotypes change their phenotypes in captivity, so be it. Its still a thayeri and represents all the "qualities" you are looking for in that particular subspecies. Its still an animal you could breed to a WC direct from Mexico and straight-face sell as a thayeri.

that I do not see breeders selling their animals as "thayeri- type" kingsnake, "alterna-like" kingsnake, "SinaloanISH" milksnake, or any other such names to represent their non-locale, captive bred animals. So, it appears this preservation of species and subspecies is a big deal in the hobby. Just because an animal no longer has locality does not change it genotypically to the best of my knowledge.

Yeah Kevin, your observations are quite accurate, and that is the TRUE reality of it.....regardless of some of the other drivel handed out here about it.

When is the last time you saw a snake type-up it's own deli cup label?..LMAO!!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

You make a very good point, IMHO. I agree that even when the phenotype is modified through selective breeding if you started with pure genotypes and/or pure localities and nothing was ever added, then they are still those same pure genotypes and/or localities and it is accurate to label them as such.

The reason is because the phenotypes of multi-generation pure genotypes and pure localities drift in different ways than mixed genotypes and mixed localities do. For example a multi generation pure Hwy. 277 locality grayband will still look very different from a multigeneration pure Davis Mountains locality grayband. Even though neither may look very much like their respective wild counterparts, they still do both have their own look.

Another example would be that a multi-generation pure genotype Sinaloan milksnake will look very different from a multi-generation mixed geneotype Honduran X Sinaloan milksnake. Even though multi-generation genotypes may no longer phenotypically resemble their wild counterparts, each pure and/or mixed genotype still has it's own unique capacities for the way in which it's phenotype will drift, or depart, from it's original expression.

As long as nothing is added the genotype(or locality) never changes, it's just it's phenotypical expression that changes. Since those phenotypical expressions each take paths that are unique to their genotype or locality, the genotype or locality remains a valid describer for those animals.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

keeps repeating this part of FR's post
"If for some reason you sell them or their offspring, then simply tell the history as you know it."

Yeah, that principle works for me to a degree. It would be even better if these animals came with a guarantee to never be labled or sold as anything other than integrades or hybrids, regardless of how they look. But, I dont see that ever happening.

...make that a "sticky" thingy????

ahhh...but then, there we go again......(sigh)
...trying to legislate morality......

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

>>I was under the impression the subspecies designations of thayeri and greeri went away and the three (mexicana, thayeri, greeri) and now the same snake genetically and therefore L.m.mexicana. Thayeri and greeri basically referring to variations/types and usually presented in paranthesis, but are not longer valid subspecies.

They are STILL valid subspecies. Thayeri and Greeri are different in MANY ways.

Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri, Lampropeltis mexicana mexicana and Lampropeltis greeri are the only three subspecies in the mexicana complex now.

At one time Lampropeltis ruthveni were grouped with mexicana but they are their own species now. Same with Lampropeltis alterna and Lampropeltis webbi.

I do agree there is much work to be done to clear up the taxonomic mess with Mexican King snakes. There are many inbetweeners (intergrades) there as well that have not made it into captive collections and probably some new species and/or subspecies.

BTW...that snake posted by the original poster looks to be a thayeri (Nuevo Leon Kingsnake) but there is no way of knowing that it isn't tainted with anything else without knowing the full lineage history.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Good info John. I believe the last source of info I read on these guys was from Bartlett and Markels book on Kingsnakes. I was sure they mentioned that these three were now all L. mexicana, with reference to "mexicana", "thayeri", and "greeri" as something done by the herp community to distinquish the varieties, but not followed by the taxonomic community any longer. It may have been one of those "in debate" things that finally got resolved to keep them as the three subs. I cant say I keep on top of the taxonomic journals!! Phenotypically, the three are very distinct IMO, even considering the wide variability of thayeri.

What tickles me is that their status changes back and forth, but the snakes themselves have not changed. It's only our definitions of them that changes. Just like the definition for species has changed over the years, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>What tickles me is that their status changes back and forth, but the snakes themselves have not changed. It's only our definitions of them that changes. Just like the definition for species has changed over the years, lol.

VERY true statement there Jorge......
I hope these Mexicana sub species never get lumped together with this new age of taxonomic clades. I think it threw a wrench in the Zonata world already........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

John, I must be basing my info on very dated info. Not sure what happened to zonata and I havent read anything more recent then Markels book regarding the recognized classifications. Last resource I consulted had L.p.p., L.p.k. still differntiated, but I believe woodini got absorbed into L.p.p. Does this still hold current for pyromelana???

Yes that snake is phenotypically a "thayeri". As mentioned, that does not prevent it from having questionable genetics.

And J was right, the snakes stay the same, they are what they are, only the names change.

In the future, all isolated populations will be their own species. Which means, there will be many many many species of montane kings. As they are many isolated in many different mountain ranges.

The problem is, in reality, they are the same snake. So the name game will go on and on. We must remember. The names have always been something people wanted to call them, whether its a common name, or scientific name. Its just a name. No more, no less, and it never influences the actual snake.

ALso the reality is, these snakes are always changing(evolving) so the actual current name is always temporary. Which means, its current name is not all that important. Its always the animal thats important. Cheers

All true....I agree...
We are merely viewing and living in a tiny snapshot in time......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

>>John, I must be basing my info on very dated info. Not sure what happened to zonata and I havent read anything more recent then Markels book regarding the recognized classifications. Last resource I consulted had L.p.p., L.p.k. still differntiated, but I believe woodini got absorbed into L.p.p. Does this still hold current for pyromelana???

You are correct, woodini is not recognized as a subspecies anymore. Pyromelana species only include L. p. pyromelana and L. p. knoblochi now.

The strange thing is the fact they can be both found in the same habitat and range in Mexico........
L.p.p. phenotypes were once found near to L.p.k. phenotypes.
But Knoblochi have not been found in Arizona....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I forgot L. p. infralabias.....
Is this still a recognized subspecies of Pyromelana?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

infralabialas.....
Mis spelled...sorry....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

the correct spelling is"infralabialis"

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>the correct spelling is"infralabialis"

Dammit....IS at the end not AS.....Stupid fingers....LOL

Thanks Doug......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Knoblocki are found in nothern mex, and in the southern Az. mountains.

There, they are a recessive color/pattern phase. Like an alterna phase is in the langtry area. In our southern mountains, that pattern occurs in about 5% of the population overall. But much higher percentages in some locals.

ITs indicated by the black and red bands not crossing to the ventrals. Also there is a much higher triade count. Up into the 80's Which is almost double the normal in those areas. Cheers

>>Knoblocki are found in nothern mex, and in the southern Az. mountains.
>>
>> There, they are a recessive color/pattern phase. Like an alterna phase is in the langtry area. In our southern mountains, that pattern occurs in about 5% of the population overall. But much higher percentages in some locals.
>>
>> ITs indicated by the black and red bands not crossing to the ventrals. Also there is a much higher triade count. Up into the 80's Which is almost double the normal in those areas. Cheers

I was waiting on this post from someone as I knew that southern AZ had some phenotypic knoblocki.

And what langtry area are you talking about Frank?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

So you are saying that the south AZ pyros that have the knob look, ie red that doesn't go all the way across the ventrals, also tend to have higher band counts than the "normal" pyro pyros found in the same south AZ pops?

Do you know if the knobs in Mexico that have the pyro look, ie red bands that go all the way across the ventral, conversely have lower band counts than the "normal" knobs found in the same Mexican pops?

This is very interesting if so. It seems to indicate a historical intergrade as if the knob look became fixed in Mexico and the pyro look became fixed in the north at one time and that there was back and forth intergrading which later again became separated. I have found 3 pyros in south AZ. Two were typical and the other, a DOR, had the knob look as well as having a higher band count than the other two. Small sample size I know but it fits with what I think you are saying.

Another thing I have noticed is that high band count pyros with lots of crossovers often have very little black on the ventral suface and high band count pyros that have very few crossovers often have alot of black on the ventrals. The mid to low band count pyros that I have seen don't seem to follow this rule though.

It would seem that certain characteristics in pyros have an affinity for one another, almost like it's not just random but that cartain characteristics go hand in hand.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

>>So you are saying that the south AZ pyros that have the knob look, ie red that doesn't go all the way across the ventrals, also tend to have higher band counts than the "normal" pyro pyros found in the same south AZ pops?
>>
>>Do you know if the knobs in Mexico that have the pyro look, ie red bands that go all the way across the ventral, conversely have lower band counts than the "normal" knobs found in the same Mexican pops?
>>
>>This is very interesting if so. It seems to indicate a historical intergrade as if the knob look became fixed in Mexico and the pyro look became fixed in the north at one time and that there was back and forth intergrading which later again became separated. I have found 3 pyros in south AZ. Two were typical and the other, a DOR, had the knob look as well as having a higher band count than the other two. Small sample size I know but it fits with what I think you are saying.
>>
>>Another thing I have noticed is that high band count pyros with lots of crossovers often have very little black on the ventral suface and high band count pyros that have very few crossovers often have alot of black on the ventrals. The mid to low band count pyros that I have seen don't seem to follow this rule though.
>>
>>It would seem that certain characteristics in pyros have an affinity for one another, almost like it's not just random but that cartain characteristics go hand in hand.
>>-----
>>www.hcu-tx.org/

We should bring this topic to the top Aaron.....
As I have heard it now from 3 different "old timers"......that phenotypics pyros have been found in phenotypic knoblochi range and vice versa.........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

There was a great post by Rich Gassaway on this topic awhile back. He said that in southern AZ the ratio of phenotypic pyro pyro to pyro knobs is about 90/10 and in the Mojarachic region of Chihuahua it is the reverse. The ratio increases gradually as you travel north to south or vice versa.

The phenotypic "knoblochi" from southern AZ do have higher band counts than the average pyro from the same area, and I believe the phenotypic "pyro pyros" from Chihuahua have lower band counts than your typical knob.

Here is a southern AZ "knob" I found about 5 years back. Average band count in this area (Santa Ritas) is in the low 40s. This girl clearly has much more.

And below is a link to some locale knobs. Check out the lower band count Creel area knob. Much different from the other two from the same area.
Locale knobs

Great info Greg....Rich's post was the one I was remembering...

Is there any correlation to elevation and a specific phenotype?

BTW....nice find. Killer knob!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I dont think there is a connection to elevation and phenotype, but I could be wrong. I just think pyros highly variable, which is why they sunk the woodini and infralabialis subs.

Frank did mention that there are certain populations in SE AZ that have a higher percentage of "knob" types. Variation may be more by locale than by elevation.

Snake eggs are way more durable than some might think they are. In my own experience, over the years, I've dropped eggs in all stages of development, have moved them from container to container, had heat and cold spikes, and turned them. Maybe it's just luck, but I consistently have high hatch rates and few if any kinked animals.Just this year I moved snakes eggs (ball python, cal king, brooksi, and pituophis) in mid summer heat over 120 miles - granted I had the AC on, but it was very far from a comfortable smooth ride and the temperature was anything but consistent.......
I had nearly 100% hatch rate from everything and not a single kink.

Eggs are tough - alot tougher than we give them credit for being.

Thanks for listening.

byron.d

I think that Carl Kauffield has a story in one of his books about mailing some bullsnake eggs through the U.S. Mail and they still ended up hatching.
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www.hcu-tx.org/