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Seems to me that there arent many big Hypo Hondurans out there. I dont see many that are in the 5' and bigger range. I know Hondurans can get huge so whats the deal? Too much inbreeding has stunted them? I would love to be shown some 5' Hondurans that are Hypo. I also noticed that most and Im talking about 90% of the Hypos I see have a scale defect on their heads. I believe its the frontal scale between the eyes and the nose. Its supposed to single scale but many Hypos have this scale split or divided for some reason. Its only in the Hypos as the hets are normal. I wonder if this is some piggybacking defect with the hypo gene.

Bone

Info correction the frontal scale is the big one between the eyes.

B-

It could be that the population the hypo gene originated from are just a smaller sized population in general. It often happens that certain genes are linked with certain sized animals due to the size the originating populations are.

Five feet is bigger than average for a Honduran. They are usually smaller than that, therefore it should come as no surprise that there aren't many five foot hypos. I've seen a pretty fair number of imported Hondurans as well as a lot of captive bred normals.

I think it's possible that morphs of snakes that are captive bred over several generations can be smaller on average that wild-caught examples of the same snake. It seems that way with Corn Snake morphs, but it's all anecdotal if there's no formal mass-measurings done.

Tim

Third Eye

Tim, I mentioned in my previous reply it could be the size of the population that trait came from causing what appeared to be smaller hypo hondos. However, it could also be a matter of perspective being lost. I remember the first time I saw an adult pair of hondos in 1996 at a local herp society members house. Man, I was floored by the size this "milk snake" achieved compared to what I was used to imaging when the term "milk snake" was mentioned to me before. Even if they were only a solid four foot long, they still appeared to be giants in my mind. Same reason large boid breeders really dont consider five and six foot NA colubrids "large" LOL!! We are probably just getting used to looking at these four and five foot milks that used to appear five and six foot back in the day when first viewed!!

I think you are onto something there.

However, I do remember seeing adult Hondurans in the 80s that were monsters. They were in cages larger than sweaterboxes. Applegate had breeders in one large cage. I couldn't tell you the length, but the girth of those milksnakes was memorable. Those were some big kids, huge in comparison to what one typically sees today sitting in a sweaterbox.

I think CB animals gradually get a bit smaller, to a point. Smaller individuals (talking about Hondurans here) fit sweaterboxes better, thrive better on a typical captive feed regimen, and produce easier in smallish cages. I think it is what has happened over generations. We kind of select for it whether we know it or not. Nature (even man-made) has a way of losing what it does not need. There is no benefit for a big Honduran in captivity, especially in a life of sweaterbox homes and once-per-week feedings. Sweaterbox snakes do not compete for mates or fend off enemies. So big is just not needed.

I bet if everyone used 6ft cages, tons of food, communal housing, etc we might see some huge hondurans over generations as well, because the potential is likely there. I'm not suggesting people do it, just saying it might be possible to go the other way.
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Mark

Yep, that's how I got hooked on them. I saw a four foot orange and black snake on a pet store in the 1980s and it was way bigger then most other milks I'd seen.

I do have a 22-1/2 year old normal female Honduran and she is 4-1/2 feet. I've seen a couple 6 foot normal Hondurans that Norm Damm has that were 20-something years old, so I think age may have something to do with it as well - most example of morphs of Hondurans haven't been around for over two decades.

Tim

Not sure whats up with the missing scale but I have produced a good handful over the years like this.I have seen it on some albinos as well as hypos.

and as far as large hypos I have several that are well over five foot but I only have three snakes that are a solid six foot.One is albino one is hypo and one is het hypo.
here is the het hypo female.She is about 74 inches long and is 1800 grams.Lays only about 6-8 eggs but they are huge and the babies hatch out in the 18-20 inch range.

here is another one.

here is a albino male that is a solid six foot.I am about 6-1 and you can see he is kinked a little and has about six inches on the floor.

And for the record I have heard of 7 foot hondurans here and there but I have never seen a true 7 footer except the old pic of Porras holding that giant (close to eight foot)wild caught.
The only seven foot milk I have ever owned was a male Black milk.He was a true 7 foot on the nose at about 9 years of age.

L8r Shannon

Nice pics, Shannon!