Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I posted a few months ago that I adopted a Savannah Monitor from a private owner. Since coming here, he's grown quite a bit and I'd like to start planning his permanent enclosure.

As with the first one I built, my goals for the enclosure are as follows: 1) provide for animal's basic needs, 2)allow for the animal to express as much of its natural behavioral repertoire as possible, 3)provide for ease of routine maintenance, and 4) if possible, be visually appealing.

I've seen a few people build enclosures using metal stock tanks as a base. Is this an option for an adult savannah monitor? I don't yet know what the largest available size is, but the enclosure I'd like to build would ideally be around 8'x4'x4'.

If that is not an option, what are your tried and true methods for waterproofing wooden enclosures? His current enclosure is a 4'x3'x2' plywood box. The interior is covered in thin Plexiglas waterproofed with beads of silicon. This was my cheapest, most practical route because a friend of mine is a contractor (who thankfully lets me use all of his power tools) and had leftover material I could use for free. I imagine I won't be so lucky with an enclosure twice the size, so: FRP? Polyurethane? Reptishield?

My guy currently has a little over a foot of a soil/sand mixture for burrowing, along with a hefty layer of leaf litter. He has dug several burrows throughout the enclosure. But I wonder, what exactly is the design behind these "Rete's stacks" or "boards" I keep reading about? No need to get into Rete's history or Goanna Ranch, I know. I'm simply wondering how the stacks are built, as in if there is a specific method or if you just try to provide a variety of shelters like a sort of man-made burrow. What is the advantage of using this stack system versus allowing the lizard to burrow naturally with a variety of above ground shelters/basking spots/temps? Am I missing the point?

The stock tanks work great for them. I built a wooden cage on top of a stock tank the stock tank holds the dirt. It extends the length a little bit...not that thats necessary just wanted to. Hopefully others can chime in.

I suppose you could cover the outside of the stock tank with some type of wood paneling to hide the ugly looks of it.

I did some further research and found they come in a 8'x3'x2' size. I think I can use that, build a 2'x4' frame around it, use wooden paneling to cover the stock tank and 3/4" plywood to build upwards. Maybe eventually I can place two side by side and build around them in the same manner.

Do you have Savannah monitors? If so, are any adult size? I am looking for ideas for water "bowls" for a four foot lizard, large enough to soak in. I am currently using a rubbermaid tub but I'm not sure how that would work when he gets bigger.

They sell thick, durable, plastic horse trough now. I know this because I live next to a lot of the farmers and their are a lot of feed stores around here.

here a pic of one with a nice lid

Yep I keep savs, mine are sub-adults, I use the plastic sweater boxes for water. Sometimes I will soak them in room temperature water in a bigger tub as well. Like during spot cleaning.

I use a pail to dump the dirty water into. I don't want their tub being any bigger then 5 gallons. It becomes too much of a pain to move and clean. They do most of their crapping in the water bowls I'm sure you've noticed. LOL.

In my Sav enclosure, which was built by my brother "MikesMonitors" there's a suspended drywall putty mixing tub used as a water basin. It's about 5-6 inches about the substrate which gives a nice dark, humid hide area beneath it.

Just for convenience, I also keep a dish for drinking down at ground level.

This shot was taken beneath the suspended water basin.

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Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

Thanks for the reply. Two questions about your photos. How big is your monitor there, and, how big is the stock tank?

Retes Stacks are simple; take several like-sized cuts of plywood, say, 2'X2', nail or screw smaller boards between them to create "shelves" or simulate crevices/cracks. I don't have any pictures any more, and I couldn't find any on varanus.net, but they work great. Here's a drawing of what they'd look like from the side...

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
yy yy
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yy yy
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yy yy
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yy yy

Etc. Hope this helps.

Keith

Oops, it reformatted... the y's are meant to represent a 2x2 or such, and there would be one at either edge of the plywood. You can also cut a hole down the center of the boards, adding more usable space for the monitors.

don't put holes in it your trying to limit air flow and create different levels of heat and humidity. the empty air spaces should be tight to not as tight but still tight and be shaped like wedges of different sizes if that makes sense. It gives them more options.

You're very right; I was remembering pictures of them with the holes, but that is a self-defeating way to do it. The idea is to create usable, secure areas for the monitors.

.

Take the above photo from "ludofrombelgium" and 1/2 bury that structure in dirt. You want dark, moist and cooler cracks between boards down low that are buried in substrate. Just creating a building of wood that stands up and is open-air on both sides and all levels means it's dry from top to bottom but has a temp gradient. You need moist places for these lizards to hide in, not just dry fishtank highrises.

They do love those stacks but I can tell you at least with dwarf pilbaras I had real issues with the wood. For one wood gets very dry and is an insulator [doesnt transmit or hold heat very well] I hatched about 24 pilbaras that year and had major toe loss from sheds sticking and eye problems from useing dirt. I basically modified the stacks by useing flat river rock epoxied together with clam shells epoxied on that acted as water dishes. When glauerti or pilbaras hatch they are extremely shy [more so glauerti] and will stay in those stacks for long periods. With the use of the rock it is much more abrasive in aiding sheds, holds more moisture then wood, and retains alot of heat for night time period. My setups today are as explained above and I use washed river stone 1/4 inch or cypress mulch in a very thin layer for a couple of reasons. One is it is to large to get caught up in the eyes to create and issues, second is it is to large to ingest for the most part and it is clean. I have found the only time my dwarf monitors use dirt is when the females become gravid. Dirt in my opinion is largely over rated for general dwarf varanid husbandry because there are cleaner better ways. Most dirt carries parasite eggs anyway unless sterlized.
Bob

Hmmmmm it already known that toe problems is without question from dry air and a substrate that does not hold humidity.

Also about soil being over rated, hmmmmmm all yours came from that, and all wild ones do too. I know, I never had parasite problems from dirt or anything, DID YOU? REAlly Bob, did you have to have some pilbaras treated, or are you just playing around controlling things you do not need to control.

You know, its alright if you do. Its your choice, but to insinuate to others, that soil is not good is completely wrong.

As in, its what those monitors do. They do both, they live in burrows and in crevice. Cheers

FR, I am not saying soil does not work but their are better alternatives without all the dust, parasite potential, ect. I was really disappointed to set up a few gilleni in a 6 ft. trough filled with soil and not see a one of them really dig at all, the flavis I had for a short time are natural diggers and did move the dirt around making to much dust for me. My beaded lizards were the same way. The dwarfs simply dont use it unless a girl is ready to lay period. It is what it is [the truth]. And yes dirt does carry various parasite eggs, it is also a risk with dogs, cats that go outdoors. I worm my collection with panacure once a yr. When I had my beeadeds for 14 yrs. it got old cleaning up a layer of dust they would create with all there digging, if I can keep my groups happy without it I will do so, I only keep dirt in egg boxes. And yes I found dirt to be a bad choice for young dwarfs period.
Happy Holidays, Bob

Its simple Bob, to much dust means the wrong kind of dirt. It also means its too dry, which is reason for your toe loss.

Also, them not using it for burrows means, its not hot enough in your cages. Consider, in nature during the summer or hotter months, the outside heat drives monitors and most other reptiles into shelters, They normally come out very early mourning, and late afternoon. This is commonplace.

So if yours do not go down, then its because your heating is marginal.

And you never did answer my question about parasites, did you ever have a parasite problem with odatrias, the word dwarf is not so good. Well did you? If not, what the heck are you talking about.

To me, its all about you, and nothing about the animal.

My bet is, dirt is too much work for YOU. the rest of your story is all about avoiding that work, which is fine, just tell the truth.

More truth, you can indeed manipulate animals to do anything, the question becomes why?????? cause you can. The force them to lay where you want(lazy again) has been done long before you, as in, Pro exotics and rare earth.

I guess when I get old and febble, I will keep them like you.

I do not mean any offense, its just that it bothers me when people take everything away from animals because THEY CAN. I happen to think we should give them as much as we can from nature, soil, leaflitter, wood, rock, etc. Not take away as much as we can.

I think your much smarter then your dust problem, and the parasite thing is only playing on keepers fears. I know of no one that had parasite problems from keeping varanids on dirt, indoors, outdoors or anywhere.

I guess Krusty is right, you do this for money, I on the otherhand keep them to SEE what they are and what they do. Not how to keep them in a clean plastic world devoid of everything natural to them.

Also, during my time in Australia, I found gilleni, bushi, pilbaras and caudolineatus in burrows.

One funny story was when I was in the west. I took some well known herpers to see varanids and pythons, One from your area, was with me. I parked the car and was walking about, and these dang lizards kept jumping out of the trees and running down burrows. They were so fast that I could not tell what they were at first. So I go all sneaky, well I finally spotted one doing the monitor thing, peeking about the branch. It was one of those New bushi monitors, only this was years before they were to be named bushi. Well, there was lots and lots of them and they just kept running down burrows. Got me, what do I know, and better yet, what do they know? AGain, I also found the above this way too. Good on you Bob.

FR, you missed the point, I had kept big old beaded lizards for years on dirt, got out of them after 14 yrs and achieveing a new world record on hatching 20. They like the flavis do create dust indoors, you would have to keep the dirt to wet to even be healthy for the monitor to achieve dustless dirt. The problem with pilbara toe loss was from dry wood stacks [problem fixed with flat stone epoxied together to avoid your problem of killing them with it. It works, minimal toe loss if any. As far as in it for $$$, you are even funnier then the other guy, your first kims sold for 2500ea, and you got that price because you knew you could. Anyone who believes any different is a complete fool. It wasnt until Joe did the kims the right way and blew away your best production efforts did he bring the price down to a more affordable level 750 ea. most could afford.Anyone that takes a jab at anyone about the money is not only lying to themselves but an idiot to think like that. What do you think happens to any surplus monitors anyone here on this or any forum produces does with them? Ive never seen any posted by Mother Theresa being free to good home, have you? And yes I know about bushi and that is a recent thing that happens naturally, I dont know if all the info is in on that one either but your crosses happened long before that, so now since they are found naturally I guess your crosses are justified to yourself? Stone over chezzy luan, Im in!! Happy Holiday
Bob

Your missing the point Bob, your using dusty dirt, what they use in nature is not dusty dirt.

Sorry but, you live in what, OHIO, hmmmmmmmmmmm what kind of dirt do you have?????? I live in S. Ariz. And I watch helodermas live and nest naturally. So I do know what they use.

So what your doing is great, your fixing your problems, but sir, we are not all restricted like you. Others can obtain decent dirt, and stop the dry air, and not have to "fix" your problems. That is the point.

Somehow you think your problems are universal, No, your problems have already been cured and many are past that.

i do give you credit, you sure can do things good, for doing them, THE HARD WAY. I do admire that.

Dry air, is to be prevented. Soon you will figure that out.

FR, no matter what you say about Ohio dirt I watch the beaded lizards nest and lay in it to and it is good old Ohio dirt with a few of my added ingredients. And guess what in that Ohio dirt I dug up 21 good beaded eggs and hatched 20 of them which is the new world record in captivity. God Bless Ohio Dirt, it works great with the dwarfs to.
Happy Holidays, Bob

more running around in circles. good on you. We are talking about the problems you had, not the problems you didn't have.

About Ohio dirt, what the frog does that mean?????? there are lots of types of dirt in Ohio.

I was over at Don Hampers once and we drove around and found lots and lots of great dirt. He lives in Ohio, its not about Ohio. Why would you say that? Thats the problem Bob, you have all manner of preconceive notions in your head, and you do not talk about them. Its not ohio dirt. Its the kind of dirt you used in the baby pilbara cage. Taking one successful example and applying it to where it may have failed in a completely different circumstance, is not very smart.

With larger monitors, you know, like beadeds, you can use friggin any old dirt, rocky course, etc etc. But they are not baby pilbaras are they.

I keep my savannah in a dirt/sand/compost mixture with a layer of leaf litter and have not had any problems with dust. The soil is too moist for that, I believe. It is moist enough to hold its form when you close your fist around it but dry enough that when you touch it, it crumbles.

As for parasites, I did go the route of sterilizing my dirt before adding it to the enclosure. That, though, was a decision I made after having unwanted weeds grow in my enclosure. The interesting thing about this is that I discovered my enclosure was able to support life! I don't think you could obtain the same results with another type of substrate.

Mr Retes: How would you assemble your stacks? I have read about them and talked to people about them; it seems everyone's version differs. Based on everyone's descriptions plus a few of my own ideas, I wanted to assemble my "stack" like this:

Within the substrate, I would half bury a few flat landscaping rocks with spacers placed in such a way that the rocks would form alternating triangles. Above the substrate, corks flats would be assembled in the same way. Above the cork flats, there would be a large piece of driftwood which would create the hottest/highest basking spot (there are two others in the enclosure). Everything would be attached using aquarium-grade silicon so she won't get crushed under a loose object.

Would this function the same way or is there a reason people choose to use wooden paneling or thin plywood besides it being convenient? What are your goals for these stacks? (e.g. provide various shelter options within a thermal gradient) I apologize for all these questions, I just wish to gain as much knowledge as possible through research in order to provide the best environment I can.

Additional details on shelters: She has already dug several burrows in the enclosure. Some just deep enough to get her body inside, others more tunnel like where I could fit half my forearm down.

If you silicone down this intricate maze of hiding areas you will never get to the lizard if you ever have to take it out. While you should be bookoo sure to have the structures stable and squash-proof, you do need to be able to get to the lizards now and then. Maybe a Savannah is a little slower and more clumbsy, but these things (see pic)?...forget it. You need to be able to get to them every once in a while.

I never reach in to remove her from her hide spots, I feel it would kind of defeat the purpose of providing one. I want her to feel secure. However, in the event of an emergency, I do understand the need for this. I guess I can construct it using PVC pipe with holes drilled through the rock and cork so I can stack them that way. Thank you for pointing out the oversight!

In my case, my monitor is very hand tame. When I walk in the room she starts pacing the front of the cage (oddly enough she likes to poop in the feed tank versus her regular enclosure and will bother me until I put her in there). I would, however, like to start target training her to come "on command" the way they do at zoos for medical examinations. I work with dogs using the same methods and these lizards are smart enough for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA_X5B5iNLY

First reward training is exactly like dogs. A command, a bridge, and a reward. Monitors are very good at this.

But, you must still allow them to feed on their own.

When a monitor poops, there is always reasons, Normally they poop to mark their area. They also "poop" when they sense they are in danger. As in a flight reaction. which is common with many animals, to void before fighting or escaping.

Its your task to determine why. one easy way is to check their heart rate. Its very easy to do, practice it, slide your finger under its belly, almost midbelly, then lift it, you can really easily feel their heart beat. If its heart is racing, its not tame, its afraid, this is often confused.

Even wild monitors act tame when they feel they cannot escape. Its simple, at rest, slow heartrate, feeding or other activities, a faster heartrate, under stress conditions, a racing heartrate. Tell us what you find please.

Retes stacks and rock stacks are not advisable for Savs. They are very much burrowers. Their body shape indicates that as well. If you use stacks, they will first rub their backbones raw. They also have this ability to inflate. They squeeze underthings and do that, and will lift very heavy things, then they relax and get squashed.

That ability is to pack the walls of a burrow, so it does not cave in.

So I would use lots of soil and let them do what they know how.

You know FR, most if not all of the folks on this forum were not around in the early 90s, at least not into the herps on the level like you were with varanids and myself with frillies and helodermas. Back then I know all you really did was travel to Bernds place in Germany and copy what he was doing and bring it here, So big deal, now you stand on a soap box [if anyone should be doing this Joe would be the dude] with your finger pointing at people like you are some war hero and to boot stick a finger out at anyone profiting from breeding/selling offspring? You were indeed a venture capitalist if I had ever seen one in the herp world. Come down to earth once in a while. Parasites in dirt are a reality, and NO I never had parasite issues with any dwarfs but could have and dirt may contribute, that is something you cant answer because unless someone sends you a dead pet and you send out tissue samples, ect you would never know why it died. Your online kneejerk intuition isnt real science its 50% experiance and the rest EGO!!
Bob

Hmmmm you are not as smart as you think. I went to bernies after the san diego talks, where I met him.

At the talks, I gave a talk on breeding varanids.

Also, Bernie is very good at breeding varanids, in a very minimal way. That is, small cages, etc with good minimal results.

At the time he pulbished that if ackies laid more then two clutches, they died. at the same time we have ackies laying over six clutches and did not die. This was the first time in varanid history. Where we got to compare more then one way to keep varanids successfully. You know different levels of success.

So Bob, if your going to say something, make sure you get it right first. Because as it is, your very naive about what your talking about.

Again, I have no cages that are anything like Bernies cages, Nor did he use retes stacks, or offer hot temps, or feed like we ALL DO now. So basically, I used nothing from him. But If he did have something to offer, and it would have helped me, I would have copied him so fast his head would spin.

The reason he did not was simple. he lives where space is limited. I do not, he lives where outdoors cannot be used, I do not. he was limited to how many animals he could keep per species, I was not. Even to the point of incubation, he used a tiny little bity incubator. We us a ROOM. Our limitations were different. And that is it in a nutshell. At one point, because of the above, we produced 20 species in one year. he took decades to do that. Again SPACE. no more, no less.

I built a facility, he used his house. As in, in his house.

The results are, we exceeded what they that was normal reproduction. But then, I did not have his limitations.

on the otherhand, Europe did not have the limitations we have in the states, that is, they could acquire any species they wanted. Legal or not. Everyone worked together to get those things done, the zoos, the universities, and the private keepers. I went to Frankfurt zoo, and Rotterdam zoo, and they posted the excess list on the door. That does not happen and did not happen here.

Also, when i was there, I went with Winston Card and RobRoy to all manner of other keepers houses, including George Horns. Where I gave him a pic of the first Kimberly to ever hatch in captivity. hmmmmmmmmmmmm so I copied them.

So now you acting very defensive. Good on you.

FR, I recall some of the times you have spoken to me at shows about going their [Germany] and one of my other buddies over there was breeding the Fiji Iguanas that particular time when your friend was trying to get some legal ones back here. I know you out produced Bernd, like myself Bernd never had the intention of mass producing any Varanid's he is more into the science of them not the financial gain like you were. Joe was the one who ended up being the commercial level producer and really did seem to have a true love of the Glauerti. When Joe got out the the kims within 4-5 years a varanid [the kims] that were once so popular and common in the market place here were next to impossible to locate. This is when I picked up a pair, yes, 1.1 not hoards of them. I have never had hoards of any species but enjoy what I do. Its actually a bit theraputic after a day of construction. Anything I produce may help support my hobby and Im gratefull for that. Heck it only took one pair of beadeds to produce the new world record hatch. Its about quality for me not quanity, never was and most likely never will.
Bob

Bob,
I'm notsure where you come up with Joe Lewis outproducing FR. From what I understand Joe Lewis made up his numbers by having many many females producing small numbers of eggs.

http://library.mampam.com/retes&bennett2000.pdf

I don't recal ever seeing Joe have this kind of success. See above link...

Nate, it doesnt matter what anything says about Joes production, I happened to know him pretty good and spent enough time at his place to see what went on. I almost took a job working at his facility at one point. Now, remember when he sold out in 01-02 and the kim population was very large here. Now it is just rebuilding as in 08 they were extremely scarce. I beleive he really supplied the major demand for kims/pilbaras here with a couple of small breeders on the side perhaps.
Bob