Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have come up with an idea on how we can possibly influence local legislation in our favor. Most states (including Wisconsin) have what are called "Leagues of Municipalities", or some variant of that title or name. These websites serve as resources or libraries for municipalities, and can in some ways be thought somewhat as the state "trade associations" for local municipalities. Therefore I believe they carry significant influence to municipalities. They also often consist of many different sample, boilerplate ordinances that municipalities can adopt or utilize as examples.

Over the years of having seen many of the local ordinances we have in WI, I have noticed that almost all of them contain the exact same, (or nearly so) language and lists of prohibited animals, with reptiles being all crocodilians over 30", "poisonous" insects and arachnids", all "poisonous" animals including rear fang snakes, and all constrictor snakes over 6 feet (or just constrictor snakes). This of course leads me to believe that many of these ordinances must have been copied verbatim from somewhere. Sure enough, after having to do a little detective work, I found a sample ordinances section on the League of WI Municipalities website and listed there was the sample ordinance on "wild, and exotic animals" for Portage, Wisconsin. There was also one for snakes in Eau Claire WI:

www.lwm-info.org/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={FA23692B-353D-4760-9CAB-9F5791149185}

Now, most of us should be no strangers to the fact that most local municipalities tend to be rather lazy in their crafting and implementation of their ordinances. Many simply copy and paste. It therefore seems to me that many of the municipalities with these restrictive ordinances in place and which I have seen are probably reliant on the League of WI Municipalities to at least some degree.

What I am wondering is if this can be used to our advantage in some way? For example, relatively reasonable or otherwise "herp friendly" ordinances that we may know of in our area or even assisted in crafting can, and perhaps should be submitted to our "Leagues of Municipalities" as "sample ordinances" for other cities to adopt. Likewise, or alternatively, If there is a local, regional, or even state herp society or "State Association of Reptile Keepers" in any given area, they could use their resources to serve as advisory sources for their state "Leagues of Municipalities" or similar groups.

Thoughts?

I think it is an outstanding idea. Particularly the organization you speak of. I have been saying for over a year now that there should be some organization at the state and local levels to do exactly these types of things. It is not reasonable to think that one "national" organization such as USARK is going to be effective at these levels. And let's face it, stopping the national onslaught is just the tip of the iceberg. What does it matter if you stop the banning of large constrictors nationally if every city, county and state in the nation forbids their ownership? Just ask Bill Kirby. There are just too many local and state ordinances that desperately need attention for Andrew to handle personally. I (along with a couple other folks) proposed a state level organization of USARK, but I've heard no feedback that it is in the works, or the idea was totally nixed, or what. But, I continue to support the concept of a nationally coordinated and affiliated state and local organization.

Mark
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uncommonboa.com

Or even regional organization instead of state level (as I fear in some states membership may be too small to properly organize). This way resources could be pooled as well. Just as a for instance, due to population differences a state level of USARK in Ohio and Pennsylvania would have much more members (and therefore money) than say a West Virginia chapter of USARK. But if these three states and say MD, DE, NJ, VA and KY were pooled together in a Mid-Atlantic chapter, more resources would be available to the smaller states. Or even both types of organization, all feeding resources to the national level. I feel that some sort of sub-division would really help USARK long-term, not only in ability to fight local and state anti-herp legislation, but to bring in herp-friendly legislation as well as promote USARKs' mission of education. Perhaps something to think about after S373 is defeated (I'm confident lol)?

Also some good ideas worthy of exploration! None of this is meant to be offensive towards USARK btw. I think Andrew and his team, advisors, etc. are doing comendable work. I just think that there are way too may issues for the current organization to handle effectively, and I don't hear anyone debating that point. Plus, I think there are alot of untapped and under-utilized resources in the herp world that are willing to do much more than write some emails and make some phone calls (also important work!) when one of these national threats to our hobby raise their ugly heads. There is on-going work at regional, state and local levels that needs to be done, and it would be so much more effective if the folks at these levels had resources and work-sharing opportunities so they didn't have to re-invent the wheel, but instead learn from build on the success of others. It'd be a true learning organization; much more efficient and effective. It'd pay for us to learn from our enemies concerning effective organizations at all levels. After all, they are waging war on all fronts and at all levels. So far,, all we've been able to do is offer a defense at thenational level. Since the advent of USARK, that defense is much better than it has been in the past, but I fear not enough.

Mark
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uncommonboa.com

Herp Conservation Unlimited (HCU) is somewhat a state herp association, interested in Herp keepers' legislative and regulatory issues in Texas. Formed in 2007, I think. You can learn more about HCU at: http://www.hcu-tx.org .

I believe many of their core/key members were previously somewhat involved in the Texas Herpetological Society (since 1939). The Texas Herpetological Society is primarily represented by academics and is probably more closely aligned with regulatory authority.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

In Texas there are several Herp Societies. It might be a good idea for all of them to get together with an Association Advisory Board to strategize and synchronize their efforts, to speak more effectively with one voice.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I know Tim Cole and The Austin Herpetological Society do work closely with The Texas Parks and Wildlife Department on Hobbyist related regulations.

Maybe Tim has some suggestions.

www.austinherpsociety.org/

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

John, you mention mostly sell out folks in your post! Watch out! This is probably the most important comsideration when choosing folks for a state group. We want to choose people who are 100% herp industry friendly for these state organizations. People that support the right to sustainably harvest ANY species not listed as Endangered & Threatened. People that support the right to sell wild caught. People that support the right to possess: any number (as long as they are taken care of properly) and species of herp (legally acquired). Not people who lie about or hide their activities. Not people that are hypocrites. Not people who brown nose regulatory agencies or sell out the herp industry for some (hopeful) perceived benefit (lifting the road ban or not outlawing their particular herp activities).

The problem with most herp societies, nowadays, is that they are loaded with banning agenda academics, future banning agenda academics, citizen AR supporters, newbie hobbyists who tend believe everything the academics say and brown noser, sell out hobbyists. I know that everyone who are members of these societies are not this way but I will bet a majority are in some way. The only (at least use to be) 100% herp industry friendly herp society I know about is The Central Florida Herp Society.

We have to establish a national herp industry platform that includes and supports ALL aspects of the herp industry. The state organizations should be required to follow this platform.

Welkerii

Mike, in this case I just put out the information with no opinion one way or another. I think it best we make informed decisions.

I've said it before, we should find common ground [if that's possible] and try to build cooperation among stakeholders.

Your point is well taken and indeed part of the discussion in my opinion.

By the way, there are well meaning HCU members (many out of state, but not all) that haven't a clue as to how Texas politics works. Hate to be defeatist, but I seriously doubt anything will get done reversing the road ban next session. I'd love to be proven wrong on this, of course. We'll see.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Here are my thoughts on an effective strategy to overturn the road ban in Texas:

1) Senior Republican House member and Senior Republican Senate member bill authors/submitters, as well as, as many Republican House and Senate sponsors/co-sponsors as possible.

2) Must also have Senior Republicans as Committee members.

3) Bill to include a very expensive "Road Collecting" Permit. I mean a nominal fee large enough to get lawmaker's attention as a money earner. Probably in line with out of state license fees, or more. Do not charge out-of-staters much additional if anything more, in an effort to attract tourism to Texas.

4) Will need lots of cash for political contributions in the Legislature, a smooth operator/lobbyist with plenty of good access, and some beneficial political work and campaign contributions for the Governor, making sure he is absolutely aware of who it is from and the cause. If you do not have the Governor aware of your cause and supporting it, you might as well forget it. It MUST be placed in HIS agenda to pass.

5) And you must continuously bombard the legislators with the name of the cause. A name could be something like "Reptile Road Ban Reversal, House Bill ####". They must hear it daily.

6) There is a personal strategy when working with legislative assistants, clerks, secretaries, pages, and the like; but I won't get into that here.

That's all pretty expensive. Two people nearly full time.

Maybe a Political Action Committee is in order, as well. Might help to raise awareness and funds.

Just my thoughts.

jsc

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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Informed decisions? What do you mean exactly? Informed from sell out agenda? As long as TPWD doesn’t take away my right to hunt snakes I will support their turtle banning agenda? As long as I can get the road ban over turned I will appease TPWD by lying that I don’t sell wild caught herps? Or by being a commercial business, then buying wild caught snakes from a commercial collector and then going to a TPWD meeting and bad mouthing commercial people? Martin Luther King didn’t say I have a dream but those folks in the south have a point too.

Yes, we do need to band together with all stakeholders. But if stakeholders are selling out the herp industry then they are committing treasonous acts. We can not sit by and allow this to happen. We have enough to deal without being undermined by self serving, sell out stakeholders. We need to expose them, educate them and hope that they change their ways. But by you mentioning them it just gives them credence. Further, from what you have said you don't support many of their actions, policies and statements. What are we to do with these folks? Folks who are stakeholders yet are so selfish or ignorant they are treasonists? I take a very firm approach to this and rightly so I believe. If you know better but still support policies, make statements or take actions that undermine or are clearly against or opposite to the herp industry you are aiding the enemy, you are a sell out. I will call them out every time. I will not just sit here and allow them to sell my rights down the river for their imaginary gain.

Welkerii

Hey Mike, am I throwing you some easy pitches, or what?
Or is it a case of good cop bad cop? I don't know.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Lets abort this thread right now to prevent it from turning into another one of these:

Being a hobbyist hurts herp industry - OHI, Nov 13, 2010 *HOT TOPIC*

Let the participants take this discussion off forum. I am personally tired of all of the HCU dirty stories which have by now been repeated ad nauseum on this forum. Those of us that are not from Texas and never go there really dont care.

I have no problem abandoning the thread. I just put up some suggestions and an opinion or two. Tried to be non-judgmental and as civil as possible.

Merely my suggestions of other organizations within my state that may be a useful reference to anyone else that may wish to contact them for some suggestions. Also specific strategy for legislation change in Texas. Again, simply my opinion.

I agree, the topic WAS local/intra-state organization possibilities to effect legislation and city codes more friendly to what we do. Wasn't it?

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

While I can understand your not wanting to rehash the same evidence of misconduct and treason over and over again. It is a very important topic that needs to be addressed. I am sure many misguided hobbyists in other states do the same thing. Folks in this industry need to wake up. So, while many of the regulars on this forum are probably sick of hearing about it. I think it is important for new visitors to understand what to do, what not to do and why. Further, when I called these folks out I was viciously attacked and slandered multiple times. I am owed multiple apologies from multiple people to say the least. So for those two reasons I continue. I am an advocate for the herp industry and I do this of my own free will.

So, if someone posts about people or organizations who have shown themselves to be treasonists I feel obligated to respond. I don’t want novices to learn from people who have questionable tactics, are misguided or who are just plain wrong. We have to educate people in this industry. We have wildlife management techniques that will conserve herpetofauna while allowing access to wild populations. The banning agenda is never an option to solve these issues. And it doesn’t matter what you do with sustainably harvested animals, whether you keep, sell or even kill them. People need to be educated about this and this should be our national platform. To many novices believe everything an academic says without question. The regulatory agency personnel come from academia and they tend to take knee jerk reactions to the management of herpetofauna. All this needs to change. I think one of the ways to change this is to be extremely firm about our positions. We have the scientific backing. We want real herp conservation not banning agenda or fishing for grant money at the expense of the herps, our rights and our businesses. Everyone in this industry needs to understand this.

Welkerii

It is true of our entire society, I'm afraid. An epidemic/endemic mentality. Delegation of the thought process to authority. Big Brother will take care of us.

"The regulatory agency personnel come from academia and they tend to take knee jerk reactions to the management of herpetofauna." Yes, I've written about this many times. Suffice it to say it is an inbred mentality. Somewhat a closed loop of trained by and beholding to, philosophy.

A good example of this is when TP&W put the Grayband off limits with protected status (endangered/threatened) with absolutely no evidence to back this up. I believe in 1977 or somewhere abouts. I could be wrong on this, but I think Joe Lazslo and a few others had the regulations overturned. Maybe that's where the rumored old timer game wardens with a beef came from. They got shot down by science.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer