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Legitimate question with NO disrespect!

zonatahunt Dec 18, 2010 04:16 PM

Hello everyone,

First, I love hognosed snakes. They've been a fascination of mine for decades. While I do keep several pairs, I specialize mostly in tricolored colubrids. Because I've spent so much time working in the colubrid industry I'm wondering why some of the same commercial patterns that have occurred with respect to most specialized colubrids haven't followed suite in the hognose world.

Specifically, why are albino hognose still so pricy? I understand they can be found now for around $150, but that's still a lot of money for an animal that can regularly double-clutch and easily produce 10 eggs per clutch. When you see an albino morph pop up in a species of kingsnake that has such a high fecundity and can double clutch the price only holds for a couple years....and then after that everyone is practically having to give away their hatchlings to get rid of their stock (or be eaten out of house and home!).

So, is the high price for albino hoggies a result of price-fixing or some other marketing ploy? I mean no disrespect with this question, I'm just simply trying to understand why when two species have very similar life-history traits the prices for hatchlings are so different? Thanks for any and all answers to my question! Have a great Christmas everyone!

Mitch

Replies (15)

nearhoofm Dec 18, 2010 04:52 PM

Mitch I really dont think $150 is to much. I mean really if people want to pay the price then so be it. It wasnt to long ago when an albino would cost you $1000.

ddodge Dec 18, 2010 05:05 PM

If I remember right it was just a couple years ago that they cost around 1K... I've never seen one for as low as $150.... You get what you pay for.

CBH Dec 18, 2010 05:35 PM

Supply and demand. If people pay $150, then the price will stay at $150.

-Chris
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Christopher E. Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps
Wildlife Research & Consulting Services, LLC

zonatahunt Dec 18, 2010 05:54 PM

I absolutely agree, compared to 1K, $150 is wonderful. However, I'm just looking at the biology of the organism and how many people are working with them. This is a highly fecund species that easily double clutches. With those natural history traits and with how many people are working with them there should be a ton out there. That was my observation...that's all.

I do understand the concept of supply and demand...but with some species like chondros and balls the prices are being kept way to high...even when the demand isn't there. I had a friend that was threatened by chondro breeders because he was going to sell his for $100 just to be rid of them. I guess that's a way to make sure the price doesn't drop too much!! By no means am I claiming anyone here would engage in those types of activities, but it is an example of why you don't see low-priced animals in some markets.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my question.

Mitch

JTColubrids Dec 18, 2010 06:45 PM

1. I would say that most working with albinos ALMOST NEVER do albino x albino which means they are producing hets or double hets or just outcrossing to produce nicer albinos, therefore there are not as many being produced as you might expect.

2. There are MANY combos with albinos that have not been done yet and therefore the demand for them is still fairly high. And look at pricing for NORMAL hogs and NORMAL kings. A normal FL King/cal king is $25 where a normal Hog is $50-100. Hogs are more expensive all around, not just the morphs.

3. Hogs are a bit trickier to breed and produce from, simple as that.

JMOs

Jeremy Thompson
JTColubrids, Inc.

zonatahunt Dec 18, 2010 06:57 PM

Thanks Jeremy, I'm inclined to agree with all of your points! Have a great day.

Mitch

nearhoofm Dec 19, 2010 07:12 AM

Nicely put Jeremy. I know my first het to het breeding resulted in 1 albino out of 12 eggs

Adam_S Dec 18, 2010 06:38 PM

Supply and demand sets the price; just like with kingsnakes and the rest of them. Theoretically, you might be able to buy an albino for $150, then buy another one for $150, and then feed them like crazy for 2 or 3 years and then produce 2 clutches and 20 snakes per year for the next few years. However, the market price is a result of what actually happens, not what prospective breeders project might happen if they get the snakes they're after. If you hang around the forum long enough, you'll find that rather than setting the price of albinos, competition exists among breeders of hognose snakes too.

By the way, can you send us that link for the $150 dollar albinos. I'd like to check them out.

Thanks for your interest!
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Adam Schroeder

zonatahunt Dec 18, 2010 06:59 PM

Adam,

I just saw the ad up on the Hognose classifieds here at kingsnake. Also, my friend parts ways with his lone males for $150, but is hesitant to do any less. Btw, how can't there be interest with hoggies?! Haha.

Mitch

pikiemikie Dec 18, 2010 09:10 PM

They are also cuter than most other snakes. Thus the higher demand. Many woman love them. I read here on ks somewhere that 49% of the KS users are woman.

Adam_S Dec 18, 2010 10:08 PM

Yes, interesting, fascinating, and totally cuter than most other colubrids IMO ... and not enough supply to warrant a seperate section here on KS. That should demystify what's keeping hognose morphs higher priced than cal kings.

Also Mitch, I agree that hognose morphs are more expensive than many other colubrids, I'd just add that even the albinos are holding their value at somewhere above $150 ea. on avg. Surplus males will always be the low end.
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Adam Schroeder

GregBennett Dec 18, 2010 09:23 PM

You can't compare hognose with any other colubrid out there. For one most other colubrids bite, musk and are very squirmy and are just not that much fun to work with for new reptile owners. I know I quickly decided not to work with the kings, milks, and rats that I had for the above reasons.

Hognose are more laid back and are a blast to work with (the hissing and bluffing can make them seem to have personalities). Those qualities alone make them more interesting for new comers to the reptile world and even for veteran reptile keepers.

I've never seen albinos posted for $150.00. They can sell for that at wholesale.
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Greg Bennett - Western Hognose Morphs
520.Hognose (520.464.6673) - www.bennettreptiles.com

Rextiles Dec 19, 2010 04:12 PM

First off, I can't really add much more to what my peers have said about the current hognose market and it's pricing, I think they all pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Hognose snakes are still relatively an unknown niche market that is quickly gaining ground as people want something a bit different than the typical colubrid or python in their collection. Hognose snakes are an interesting snake for many different reasons, they are rear-fanged, keeled scaled, have that unique rostrum for a nose, will sometimes hood like a cobra while emitting a hiss that will startle most people and some will even play dead. I can see the allure of these snakes that are finally winning the hearts of most keepers. After all, for colubrids, what kingsnakes, milk snakes or corn snakes come close to having any of those traits? Plus, we're now developing more exciting color morphs than were available even 5 years ago, so the possibilities are still quite new and exciting! For these reasons alone, hognose snakes are starting to gain in demand while the current overly flooded markets of corns, kings and balls have been waning these last few years.

As my peers have said, it's supply and demand. But even hognose have been hit by this recession, morphs that cost $4k 4 years ago are now being priced below $2k and not because there's a lot of those animals being put out there by other breeders, it's just that not a lot of people have that kind of money for expensive snakes these days. I'm just glad that hognose have not completely bottomed out, but that's mainly because there's just not as many breeders out there (yet) as there are for corns, kings and balls.

But in regards to reptile pricing in general, I think that a lot of pricing is really irresponsible. I mean, $25 for a kingsnake? What does that actually mean in the real world? It means that that animal has now become disposable. In other words, Dad takes Johnny to a reptile show, Johnny gets excited over all of the snakes, Dad buys him the cheapest snake knowing that Johnny probably won't take care of it let alone have any long lasting interest in it and above all, they don't even have the proper caging for the animal. So Dad buys it knowing that it's a small price to pay so that Johnny can be happy playing with it until it dies, after all, it was a fun "souvenir" from the reptile show.

My way of thinking is that all animals should be priced accordingly to keep this type of behavior and mentality in check. If the cheapest snake is $100, the chances are that the above scenario is going to happen is lessened a lot. The cheaper the snakes become, the more disposable they become and the less responsible the keepers become. Our industry is an unfortunate one because a lot of people get into breeding irresponsibly and solely for the money. A lot of people are only looking at getting into the next "best" thing to make a buck out of it, not necessarily because of their love for the animal. And when that particular species market subsides, those breeders are moving onto the next "best" thing. It happens all the time. Unfortunately, these same type of people are the ones that end up flooding and crashing the markets for those species while the rest of us are left picking up the pieces.

I've always been of the belief that hets are one of the problems plaguing the market. How so? Well, if you have a 100% het axanthic for $300 versus an actual axanthic for $2000, which do you think is going to sell faster? The het one of course. What happens now is that the actual price of the axanthic is severely bruised because in due time, more and more people are going to be producing axanthics having only invested $600 for a pair of animals instead of $4000 for a pair. Along the way of these het to het breedings comes along a lot of possible hets which are then sold for even less money, some even sold as normals for even cheaper which can ultimately prove out. So now even more people have these genes and have only paid a very minimal amount. Now the market is flooded with axanthics and the price has bottomed out. This is what I believe has happened with balls and corns along with the recession which has driven the pricing down even more. When hets are sold at fractional pricing, the actual value of the morph has just been devalued as well. The only ways I can think of to stop this is to either price hets accordingly high to help keep the value of the actual morph, not sell hets at all or to simply cull them. Just because you can breed it doesn't necessarily mean you should, the same as selling, just because you over-produced some animals doesn't mean you should lower the price to make room for more. This is what happens when hobbyists get into purchasing hets, they over-produce just so they can get that wanted morph and then flood the market with low-ball priced possible hets and it just keeps snowballing from there. I've read on a lot of forums about some established breeders now complaining that the cost of breeding and raising snakes is costing more than they can sell them for.

Now I know that my rational is not going to catch on nor that it will be popular amongst most people, but I can't think of any other way to really save our hobby and our marketplace unless we start thinking differently and stop making disposable pets and crashing our own market values on these animals. I'm not talking about price fixing, I'm talking about responsible pricing.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

GregBennett Dec 19, 2010 04:57 PM

I always enjoy reading your post.
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Greg Bennett - Western Hognose Morphs
520.Hognose (520.464.6673) - www.bennettreptiles.com

Rextiles Dec 19, 2010 07:04 PM

Thanks Greg!

This is something I've been thinking about for a long time and wanted to post about but I just never could find the opportune time, until now.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

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