Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The use of retes boards is to allow a range of different temps and humdities. I do not say, Retes stacks, as they do not have to be stacked or stacked a a certain way.

Retes boards are BOARDS because they are made of wood. Wood is a good insulator, which is why its used. It allows for Different temps at each level. Stone on the otherhand heats up and does not allow CHOICES. Also, on a side note, more monitors have been killed by using rock/stone in cages then any other material.

The stacking of retes boards allows for layers of temps, from on top the highest level, say 165F to under that board, of say, 140F, to 100F under the next layer, to 80F or whatever the substrate is, under the layers in the substrate. They can be stacked in many ways, offset, tilted, vertical, etc. And several ways in one cage is BEST.

This is what allows choices, The thickness of the boards determines how much insulation occurs. Thinner, equals less, thicker equals more.

Most reptiles, have a texture preference, that is, in nature, they perfer to use shelters with smooth surfaces. As opposited to rough stone or rough stickery wood. So sanding and painting may be needed depending on the type of wood you purchase or acquire.

I personally like to use old weathered wood, like what you find snakes under in nature. Which is where the idea for Retes boards came from.

So, Retes boards are suppose to have the hottest temps on top the the highest level, and the coolest temps under the bottom levels. They should be offset so that there are tight spaces between the layers and each layer has several insolated hiding spots.

So when folks like Bob or others use wood stacks in other ways, you know, in the cool part of the cage, with no heat on top and not into the substrate. And are stacked like some modern office building and have holes drilled in them for some dang reason I do not understand, Please do not call them retes boards, call them useless board piles. Use your name in front or something. If you wish.

Like any tool, a Retes board and stack of retes boards, has a use and is to provide temp and humidity choices, and secure shelters. If it doesn't, its because the keeper is not using the tools right. That is like, using a drill to loosen a nut.

So please, if your going to use Retes boards, find out what they are suppose to do before you go saying naive things. Oh by the way, if they are splinters on the wood, SAND THEM OFF.

Also, Retes boards are a simple easy way to accomplish those goals, there are many many other ways. And not all species are meant for their use. Many of the larger species rub their backs as adults, but as neonates, these boards are used well. Thanks Frank RETES.

I have always used wood stacks and never have called them by any other name that I can remember.

I always thought the Retes stacks had one 2x2 on the side and the wood stacks had one on each side so they could be stacked like a "skyscraper". People who start their baby monitors in empty aquariums use wood stacks becauses the Retes stacks do not fit. Since the Retes stacks are layed out in a natural pile and aquariums do not have that much width.

Thank you for clarifying. I cannot imagine how frustrating it is to have dedicated a large part of your life to an animal only to see millions die at the hands of "unqualified" people like myself who don't know the monitor's ass from its elbow. People who impulse buy the cool baby lizard and cry on the forums when their "lizard isn't eating" or "seems lethargic."

Just know that everything I've done for my monitor, as I'm sure many others will say, I learned here on these forums from you and others with years of experience. I can't go off into the wild and observe these animals in their natural environment and I can't thank you enough for sharing your knowledge. Otherwise my monitor would probably be on newspaper with a half log, a ceramic water dish, and a basking spot of ninety degrees slowly withering away. Despite the frustration, you are reaching people, and monitors are close to thriving (as well as they can in captivity) because of it.

Happy Winter Solstice,

Jocelyn

Thin sheets of rock arranged in ways they are locked in place and being very careful not to squash the animals, but same concept - choices of temperatures and humidities in a confined space near a heat source. Also can bask down in the crag if outside commotion looks dangerous to them and still get to the heat. Lots of ways to achieve this concept, whatever you use.

Krusty

beautiful Krusty, Let me think, I started that way, as did many many before me. As an old reptile zoo keeper, its what we did.

The problem occurred when I became successful breeding varanids, you know, how your getting now. Well, once all your females multicultch, you will have hundreds of neonates.

Then before you know it, you will have way way more. So, I had to find something that worked better then trying to find thousands of rock sheets that fit all the cages. And then I have to find something that did not kill off the monitors when you used deep substrate. Then I had to find something that if they dug around would not squash them. So Retes boards is what came to be.

Then consider, I, and I know you hate that others can say I, I do keep lots of varanids outside and that taught me lots of lessons, Since I have been doing that since 1991.

It taught me that stone or rock, SUCKS, as they cannot use them when its hot. As in the heat, you need mass to keep it cool. Well, that ain't going to happen in a cage outside. So stone or rock is out. Retes boards are IN. As in, they work great outside in normal natural heat. Which is what all these little creatures are designed for.

then I learned that indoor monitors do not behave like outdoor monitors, hmmmmmmm yes they do, if you allow them to access the SAME HEAT. Which now means that stone or rock indoors does not work either. Holds to much heat.

Dang, that old learning curve..

Then consider, how many folks understand and have access to useful stone? how many have access to plywood? how many will have to go thru the squashed lizard learning curve with rock?

You see, even Retes boards use wrong, still work. But rock used wrong, is deadly.

Cool, I will promote Retes boards, but I do use other stuff too. Cheers

Ahh, I see your point about outside lizards. You are almost protecting them from frying in AZ, not so much about cryptic heating up. Wood makes a LOT of sense outdoors there are it would quickly be 180*F surface conducting to subsurface temperatures and a very hot uncomfortable lizard. Good points.

Now for the next point, remember, I said, I copied outside temps indoors. Which is why my reproductive records, exceed yours. I simply gave them indoors what they had outdoors, in doing that, recieved the same results indoors. but that meant, using wood instead of other materials that hold heat.

And no, what we found was, three layers outdoors allow the temps under the bottom layer to be that of the mass of the ground. Four or more layers allowed for many choices, even in full summer sun.

The problem I have is summer heat, and not outdoors, instead indoors. Indoors we cannot get the room temps down. Considering heat lamps in the cage. many cages, without a massive AC system, its safe, but not low enough for midsummer reproduction. But that has nothing to do with Retes Boards.

The question here was based on Danniel Bennetts early remarks about monitors in boxes. Which is his way of saying individuals in boxes, did not act like individuals in nature. In most cases, he was right. That is until you gave the simple choices they have outdoors in hot areas, which is where varanids occur. Give them heat, and they act just like outdoor monitors.

Take where you live. Outdoors is marginal. Its marginal because so far, only one species of varanid has been able to take advantage, gone feral. You do know that all manner of species of varanids have escaped and had the oppertunity to go feral. but thats another subject.

Anyway, thanks

It's simple Frank. So simple. You need a building with two stories - ones is at ground level; one is underground. When it gets too hot you go 'down under' with your lizards in the cooler substrata. You can call it a 'retes stack' for lizard breeders with the layers. I think the Aussies who keep Monitors outdoors in their yards construct pit cages for this very reason - to allow cool retreats that won't cook the captives. Problem with that where i live on the water......it's seawater 7-8' down here and we get some heavy raining for months on ends here in late summer.

I designed two herp building for private keepers here, the first had the bottom story underground, and was built by others. The second was 3/4's underground and was built by me.

If I did my facility again, it would have an underground story. Period. Here we have no reason not too.

Whats funny is, housing here should be that way. There are many areas where the ground is Rock hard, but in others like where I live, its butter and there are no rocks or anything. The surface layer is compacted harder, but once you get thru that first foot or so, the dirt jumps in your shovel.

There is an exhibit at the Museum by me "The life underground exhibit",that built underground/above ground animal cages, in the fifties I believe, I rebuilt that exhibit not that long ago. The first one was a nightmare to service and often the rattlesnakes had babies and they got everywhere. Once a keeper was bitten twice crawling behind the cages. hahahahahahahahahahaha

Cheers

Hi, I did not place any size limits on Retes boards, I have thick ones, thin ones, all sizes of them, and never use the same size in one cage. The combination of a large one, small one, large one then two small ones, etc, works very well.

Also, if you need them for a small cage, like 10 gallons, then make them to fit ten gallon.

It just so happens I build a raise up rack for monitors in 1991, and it holds many ten gallon tanks made to work for varanids. I still us it today.

All the monitors that came from goanna ranch were held in that rack.
heres a couple of pics from them old cages

Please note that while Frank is using an exposed light bulb, the choices he provided for the monitor to regulate it's temperature are dialed in and I would suspect none have burned themselves.
Please be careful of your exposed lamps if you aren't providing the choices for your animals to regulate or the proper requirements.

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WWW.LIZARDRC.COM

FR, I never called those cheesy pieces of luan wood anything more then wood stacks, yes you may have nailed together the first ones but I dont see that fitting enough for a patient here or did I miss something? I tried them and I wouldnt hit a dog in the but with one as far as the dwarfs are concerned after useing stone. Wood insulates far to much from my experiance, stone on the other hand is more of an even temp reduction and holds the heat/moisture our almighty dollars pay for when the ligths are on all day and off at night, and if it works why fix it? Im sure wood may work fine with med. to larger species but the problem is wood gets to dry and tiny 5gm monitors turn into recluses when they get in it and off go the toes. I commend your pioneering efforts but there are room for improvements with anything.This seems to be more of an ego thing for you in this thread then actual shared info on good ideas and input from a collaberation of keepers. Thanks for reminding me why I dont come here oto often.
Bob

I think the application of a stack system be it wood or stone is the key. All the dwarf varanids I've acquired from others came with missing digits, all owners had mentioned using "Retes" stacks. Clearly, the problem should not be blamed on the naming of a stack system or the material for that matter. We've all found Varanids and other herps under bark, plywood, metal, rock, etc.
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WWW.LIZARDRC.COM

First, your wrong, I never nailed any RETES boards together. That was others attempting to copy me. as in, allen rephasy and pro exotics to start with. What you did was copy a copy. I invented the retes boards, so I do know how it came about and nailing them together never happened here. To me, thats stupid. What are you doing to do, take the stack and shake it to get them out, hahahahahahahahahahaha

Also, your missing the point, wood would not dry out if the air was not DRY. Your problem is with the air, not the wood. So your making a HEAVY bandaid. Your using rock to fix something that a lid would fix.

As normal, I will make a point, your animals came from retes boards and with all their toes and tail tips. So whats your point????? As in, I produced all the species you have before you ever thought of keeping monitors and on retes boards, and did not have your problems, so its something your doing, not the retes boards.

The point is, you keep them with a basic problem, dry air. In dry air, they must find deep base burrows, which you do not allow, or they must find tight places where there is no air movement. Which is what you stone stacks provide. The problem is, you still have the base problem. Dry air.

The point is, you can do whatever you want, and if you like the hard way, good on you. But why suggest your hard way, is the best way. The best way is to not have dry air, then the keeper can use whatever they want or better yet, whatever the monitor wants. Get it, hard way, stone, hahahahahahahahaha

I cannot believe you cannot figure that out. Wood does not dry itself. Dry air drys out wood, thats why they use a kiln to dry wood.

Also, all you have to do is seal it, hahahahahahahaha, but if you stop with the dry air, there is no need to seal it and there are a million ways to do that.

Anyway, congrats and keep up the good work.

I would just like to point out a major historical inaccuracy being proliferated here in this thread (and elsewhere)...

FR is not the originator of using stacks of wooden boards in reptile keeping. If you were to look through German herpetocultural publications dating back to the 1920s (also the 30s, 40s, 50s and onward), you will see that wooden boards (in the same scattered orientation/functionality) have been used for a number of lizard and snake species kept in captivity.

The use of stacked boards, which are often attributed to FR's discovery, were in fact thought up and used by German reptile hobbyists almost 100 years ago- long before FR was born, obviously predating any thoughts of his about keeping monitors.

If you don't believe me, I suggest browsing through old issues of the following German journals/magazines. Some of them date back to before the turn of the 20th century, and can provide an interesting historical perspective on contemporary reptile keeping. You will see that a lot of the ideas in practice today which are often though of as 'contemporary' ideas, were devised/already in practice a century ago.

Aquarien Terrarien Zeitschrift
Der Zoologische Garten
Das Aquarien
Wochenschrift fur Aquarien- und Terrarien-kunde

Yeah Steve, I hear you, but you obviously have no idea how old Frank is. I personally think he must be at least 126.

And a spry 126 at that. With cauliflower ears.

(And sometimes popularizing can be just as important as point zero invention. Just as application of theory can be more important than following specific instructions.)
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

But I never claimed to invent anything.

First, back then they only accidentally bred monitors. Check the records.

Second, I popularized the use of Retes stacks, in a method that if applied correctly, will allow every female to reproduce successfully. EVERY FEMALE.

I used this tool, at a time lets call the varanid revolution. that is, it went from a couple of captive breeders to lots and lots of them. This tool was and is an important part of that revolution.

Don't get me wrong, There were a couple good German breeders, but they never got past the clutch or two, and it took long periods for their monitors to mature.

Which leads to high basking temps, some I also popularized, as I did not invent that either. Nature did.

So sir, wheres the answers to my questions. You forget to discribe the differences between the gouldi complex monitors. Don't you know them? If not, your only blowing smoke out of your bum.

Your just doing the old keep changing subjects, so you can keep away from actually showing how naive you are. PUT up or shut up.

For some reason that doesnt surprise me, nor does he ever mention trips to Bernd Eidenmullers who was the first person to produce any of the Australian dwarfs in captivity in the entire world and writes some darn good books lately.
Bob

Bob, your history lessons are a little short, that is, there is far more, you should do your research.

Ackies were bred at Dallas zoo, I believe in 1982, and, my friend Dr. Ube Krebs, bred them in germany since 1978.

Why you think I was the first for those species is beyond me.

I did indeed change the way varanids can be kept and changed the expectations of that their reproductive potential is.

I truly repect Bernies efforts, but his methods, expectations and results are much different then what was done here.

Why you bring this stuff up, tells me you are having a ego problem.

This Thread is about Retes boards, and your monitors losing toes. And you want to make it about everything but that.

The results that I can claim is generations. With our methods, we could go egg to egg in six months, so that made taking species through many generations something you did not have to wait decades for.

In a nutshell, the german approach was to keep a pair, and see what it takes to produce one clutch a year, for as many years as possible.

My approach was to test the reproductive potential of these animals but supporting them and not controlling them. I did not and do not hibernate or brumate, or any cycling what so ever, I written, I heatum and feedum and see that results from that.

The results were of course different. Our odatria females averaged 4 to 8 clutches a year and did so for over 18 years(our longevity record for a female supported in this manner)

This method was applied to species after species. And worked beyond others expectations.

For that I am sorry, but I did not do it, the monitors did it. All I do is shovel food in, and shat out.

What you theorize is yours to fill your mind with. But history is history.

I never claimed to be the first with ackies or tristis or storrs for that matter, but I was with other species. But I am the first to produce varanids in number. And thats a big period.

Why you folks get your panties in a knot, is really your problem. Cheers

You can have very humid air in a tub with plenty of wet dirt but if you put the wood stack under a halogen lamp in the tub it does dry out, try it sometime I mean for real! That wood gets so hot it is dry even in a high humidity tub with lid, heck I had mine so wet the water was condensing and actually raining in the tub, Its just not doable. And really if many of the real things were posted about monitors on this forum back in the day we would be exterminating glauerti out of Fl and all the southern states by now. Its been years.
Bob

Posted by: FR at Wed Dec 22 09:26:54 2010 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by FR ] [ Follow this user in Connect ]

First, your wrong, I never nailed any RETES boards together. That was others attempting to copy me. as in, allen rephasy and pro exotics to start with. What you did was copy a copy. I invented the retes boards, so I do know how it came about and nailing them together never happened here. To me, thats stupid. What are you doing to do, take the stack and shake it to get them out, hahahahahahahahahahaha

Also, your missing the point, wood would not dry out if the air was not DRY. Your problem is with the air, not the wood. So your making a HEAVY bandaid. Your using rock to fix something that a lid would fix.

As normal, I will make a point, your animals came from retes boards and with all their toes and tail tips. So whats your point????? As in, I produced all the species you have before you ever thought of keeping monitors and on retes boards, and did not have your problems, so its something your doing, not the retes boards.

The point is, you keep them with a basic problem, dry air. In dry air, they must find deep base burrows, which you do not allow, or they must find tight places where there is no air movement. Which is what you stone stacks provide. The problem is, you still have the base problem. Dry air.

The point is, you can do whatever you want, and if you like the hard way, good on you. But why suggest your hard way, is the best way. The best way is to not have dry air, then the keeper can use whatever they want or better yet, whatever the monitor wants. Get it, hard way, stone, hahahahahahahahaha

I cannot believe you cannot figure that out. Wood does not dry itself. Dry air drys out wood, thats why they use a kiln to dry wood.

Also, all you have to do is seal it, hahahahahahahaha, but if you stop with the dry air, there is no need to seal it and there are a million ways to do that.

Anyway, congrats and keep up the good work.

Let me think Bob, I have been doing this for 20 years and during that time, I have burnt holes thru those boards, and the monitors still have their toes and tail tips.

Your problem is you dang cage design. Open tops, high temps, equals lots of air movement. That coupled with dry substrate, and you lose blood flow to tiny areas like toes and tail tips. Which then causes sheds to stick, which causes the toes to die. Its not all that complicated, except to you.

So what do you do to fix that, you close the cage, use bulbs with low wattage, place them close to the basking spots. Hmmmmmmm its cheaper, allows a wider range of temps, has no dehydration problems, and allows for the use of any shelter you want. Dang Bob do you live under one of those stones or something. This was written back in the early ninites. Oh, you missed that. hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Again Bob, you can do what you want, its just that your walking behind the wagon train. Your problems were already cured, before you got monitors.

Fr, where do you come up with what I use for cages? I have multiple designs and they are all for different size monitors, The only open cages I have are for some adults, the cages I had the toe loss in are plastic tubs, 80 quart or something along those lines with clear plexiglass lids and wood stacks under a halogen bulb on a dimmer. You are taking the stacks soooo personal for some reason, heck you shouldnt the Germans invented the darn things so why get so defensive? The real problem is a 5 gm monitor is very shy and will hide anywhere and when they get into the wood stacks bad things happen to there toes. Its not your fault really. And flat rock used correctly works and if it works I aint fixing anything. And if you really think the monitor venture is about $$$ for me you better think again. You know who I worked for and now they have an 11 million dollar Christmas tree in their Hotel Lobby in Abu Dhabi [for real]. Wow I think I will breed monitors and see what pays more [NOT} ROTFLOL!!! I do recall your nickname back in the 90s quoted by a guy named Allen '' Franks the Bank" and that was when you introduced the 10 lot red ackies and kims that I couldnt afford at the time for 2500ea.
Merry Christmas, Bob

First off, I do not know what your cages are like, nor do I care. What I do know is, Your talking about toe loss and I know what causes that. So that tells me what your problem is. The problem is without question a cage design problem.

The rest of your post is dumb and a side track to take away from the subject. Merry Christmas. Cheers

FR, the toe loss can be from many things Im sure you know that. The wood stacks seem to be the reason for me. When rock stacks were implicated toe loss was no longer an issue. What would that tell you if it happened to you? There are to many other good reasons to use rock to boot on top of shoreing up toe loss issues.
Best holiday wishes, Bob

It is Christmas day and your posting on about this windmill chasing campaign you seem to have against Frank.
I understand seasonal affective disorder and realize it's now a few days past the shortest day of the year and all that but come on.....get some help ....or take some meds, you seriously need them.
Right now you look like those loser musicians on craigslist who spend their fri and sat evenings posting about how their local music scene is so terrible all while the rest of us are working those nights. I usually read those posts at 3;30 or 4 am when I get home.
I get good laughs out of them and they help me unwind and go to sleep.
You really sound like an unemployed bass player who needs to get back on his meds at this point.
Try and at least have a Merry boxing day.

Sorry if I upset you, just seems some of the stuff I see posted by someone who does have many years experiance really has condridicted what I have found to be true [and others]. Now it is not rocket science to breed/hatch and raise some of the rock monitor species as we have for 9 years and believe me if it were from following a few key things I have seen him post many times success would not have happened. And testiment to what Im saying can be seen in the market place. Kimberly rocks use to be so darn common [when bred by another breeder] as little as 7-8 years ago and with the aid of forums like this in place how much success have you really seen? The problem is with the main breeder out of the reptiles for 7-8 years now the specimens that were out there were never bred/hatched but why not? We have bred/hatched ours but thank God we never followed his advice or it wouldnt have happened. Are you one of the people who still believe when 3 glauerti are kept together as hatchlings that they will always turn out to be 1.2 ?
Happy Holidays, Bob

I have kept and bred all the species you are breeding. Plus many many more. I have kept and raised babies of all these species, literally thousands of individuals. Each and everyone was kept and raised on Retes boards.

I never had a problem with toe loss. Not once. But I have many friends that did. In each case, it was quickly solved by either changing the type of dirt, and or, limiting the amount of air movement.

Please don't get me wrong. You may have invented a new way to cause that problem. But sir, due to my EXPERIENCE with Retes boards, its not the boards, its something your doing.

But instead of actually sharing what may be causing the problem, you act like a child. Like many others, you change the subject, cast doubt on me, which is kinda funny. And do anything except investigate the problem. You could be using some stupid kink of wood. I/we do not know, because you will not say. So put up or shut up.

Well guess what Bob, could I be wrong, oh heck yes, could you be wrong? most likely. But if all you do is call names and act like a child, we will never know, all we will know is, your acting like a child. Cheers

FR, if you think making a point is childish so be it. I have bred and kept species you never kept and some are just like varanids, soo wheather it be thousdands as you make in your claims or hundreds as I make in mine, there is no differance if something works or not. The real problem you seem to have is I found an alternative that works and it is not wood stacks. And I have found it also retains heat which is good. Why do snakes/other herps come up on the pavement at night? Same reason the rock stacks work. In fact if it works why would I give wood stacks a try? Im sure they would work on larger monitors [but I do not keep these species]. I truly believe the problem isnt so much the wood stacks but 5 gm hatchlings that have problems looseing there toes when the wood gets oh so dry. I thought this forum was to throw out successful ideas which I did and do. Seems funny I have had emails from people getting monitors from me that have had some of the same problems in the past as I did when I first litened to advice on these forums. I improvise with common sense in mind and it worked, all Im doing is passing it on here. You might be getting your husbandry confused with the different species you are assosiating it with perhaps? I know when we went to get pilbarensis back in 2000 you were long gone out of them and have been since. Maybe your memory is failing a bit? If you read each post I have on this and then again read your own you will see you are throwing reasons of the boards failing when you are in fact clueless on our set ups completey. Sooo how on earth can you even begin to make a diagnosis? That's about the same thing as the stoned bass players post.
Bob

I am clueless about your setups, and thats because instead of talking about them all you want to do is measure peckers or something.

Come on, get a clue. If your going to blame something like retes boards for toe loss, then you better be able to back it. Right now, all your animals came from my stock and we use retes boards and do not have that problem.

You say it is a problem for you. So what are you doing to cause a problem where there is no history of that type of problem??????

Instead of talking about your setups WHICH DID CAUSE THE PROBLEM you play your silly games, Why I ask???????

Show you dang setups. I bet you won't.

im ready to see some pics of cages!!!!
lol

tjsreptiles

FR, this happened the first year I produced pilbarensis which was 2001. I explained that in my post you must not have read originally. Now lets see? I have been through 3 total computers since then and even then not taken pics of the cages? No need to really, the wood stacks as I call them did not work so well and were replace with rock. Problem solved period. I dont know why you cannot except something like this, you take it as an insult or something, I never called them retes boards, just wood boards.And whatever you want to call them they didnt work for the pilbaras and I bet the kims would be worse as you know how thin their toes are. Maybe the boards worked for you for other reasons? We both know many other things factor into the final equasion with anyones set ups. Two people can have the identical set ups and one fail while the other succeeds due to other factors [ambient room temps,humidity,ect.] And before you even ask no I did not write all the detail tecnicalities mentioned above on paper. Bad on me.
Bob

Posted by: FR at Mon Dec 27 16:34:42 2010 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by FR ] [ Log in to Follow this user on Connect ]

I am clueless about your setups, and thats because instead of talking about them all you want to do is measure peckers or something.

Come on, get a clue. If your going to blame something like retes boards for toe loss, then you better be able to back it. Right now, all your animals came from my stock and we use retes boards and do not have that problem.

You say it is a problem for you. So what are you doing to cause a problem where there is no history of that type of problem??????

Instead of talking about your setups WHICH DID CAUSE THE PROBLEM you play your silly games, Why I ask???????

Show you dang setups. I bet you won't.

Your not getting it, the boards have and are being used without the problem you had. Period. So its common friggin sense that something else contributed to the problem.

but instead of looking at the problem, you run and hide and call names and spin all manner of stories.

Bob, you don't need pics, how about a brief discription of what those cages were like? No your not going there are you. You want it to be the boards, well good on you.

The reality is, all tools can be used wrong or poorly. The benefit and use of these forums is TO DISCUSS, these things so we all know how and when to use the tools that WORK for us, in our own unique conditions.

This is where your falling down, you do not want to discuss something on a discussion board. So why the frog are you here???????
In this case, you say something negative about something that has been shown to work well. That is great, many many folks have used the boards inappropriately and have had negative events from them. Our job is to understand why and how that occurs, to prevent it from occuring in the future with other keepers.

As mentioned, two common mistakes that cause your problem are, lots of air movement, and dry substrate.

Lots of air movement is caused by open tops with heat lamps a distance from the basking areas, to work well, in that case, the heat lamps much be of a higher wattage and heat lots of air before they can heat the substrate. Open tops means no tops, screen tops or just plain to much air space. This is easily and cheaply prevented. In fact, its cheaper to use lower wattage bulbs closer to the animals.

Dry substrate is most commonly sand which has no fines, fines hold the humidity of the substrate. This is easy to test for. If you pour water on said, it sinks quickly to the bottom. This is of no value. Proper substrates are clean, and somewhat sealed, where the surface is dry and leaves lots of tracks, but its humid/moist just below the surface.

So how about stopping the crap and talking? Cheers

Posted by: FR at Tue Dec 21 09:23:16 2010 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by FR ] [ Log in to Follow this user on Connect ]

The use of retes boards is to allow a range of different temps and humdities. I do not say, Retes stacks, as they do not have to be stacked or stacked a a certain way.

FR, yes the wood stacks probably do work for everything you say but fail in a big way with 5 gm dwarfs from my experiance, Rock stacks do hold heat which is good and yes they do give a choice when stacked like we do here, the top rock is under a basking lamp and the layers of rock below are cooler, they do seem to hold alot more moisture to retard dehydration and help with missing toes with a fine grit natural flatstone. What the heck they are rock monitors after all. The wood stacks insulate to much and the temp choices lean more to extreme, rock stacks are more even and gradule, being that rock holds heat and wood does not the rock is evenly heated voiding out a small hotspot like your wood provides and you do not get thermal burn because the monitor is more evenly heated not the narrow hotspot on the center of the wood.

Retes boards are BOARDS because they are made of wood. Wood is a good insulator, which is why its used. It allows for Different temps at each level. Stone on the otherhand heats up and does not allow CHOICES. Also, on a side note, more monitors have been killed by using rock/stone in cages then any other material.

Fr, this is why these rock stacks are made with small drops of 5 min epoxy you can buy at Home Depot, in my case I get it for free because my wife works for the company that makes the stuff. The rock stacks are 100% tight with this stuff.

The stacking of retes boards allows for layers of temps, from on top the highest level, say 165F to under that board, of say, 140F, to 100F under the next layer, to 80F or whatever the substrate is, under the layers in the substrate. They can be stacked in many ways, offset, tilted, vertical, etc. And several ways in one cage is BEST.

Those temps are provided by other means then lamps here [with larger monitors] and we do not go any higher then 110F for hatchling rock monitors on the rock stacks. Maybe this is why we still have our pilbaras and others dont?

This is what allows choices, The thickness of the boards determines how much insulation occurs. Thinner, equals less, thicker equals more.

FR, yes that is common sense and the problem with wood is even a 1/4 in piece of luan one layer reduces the temp to much for our liking, rock does not, same rules apply with different thicknesses of rock to.

Most reptiles, have a texture preference, that is, in nature, they perfer to use shelters with smooth surfaces. As opposited to rough stone or rough stickery wood. So sanding and painting may be needed depending on the type of wood you purchase or acquire.

FR, I dont believe the texture thing with the rock monitors because ours seem to favor under rocks then under wood? What are they telling us by doing that?

I personally like to use old weathered wood, like what you find snakes under in nature. Which is where the idea for Retes boards came from.

FR, We have driftwood we get from the lake here and yes sometimes they climb on it.

So, Retes boards are suppose to have the hottest temps on top the the highest level, and the coolest temps under the bottom levels. They should be offset so that there are tight spaces between the layers and each layer has several insolated hiding spots.

This is what we do with the flat rock, creating spaces that profile like a door stop so the monitor can self adjust to a tight spot and re-adjust as thyey grow larger, the wedge is created by useing small shim type pieces of flat rock set in 5 min epoxy.

So when folks like Bob or others use wood stacks in other ways, you know, in the cool part of the cage, with no heat on top and not into the substrate. And are stacked like some modern office building and have holes drilled in them for some dang reason I do not understand, Please do not call them retes boards, call them useless board piles. Use your name in front or something. If you wish.

FR, After looseing many toes [on pilbaras] with the luan stacks under the halogen light as seen on this forum posted by you they were long gone and replaced with flat stone stacks and now its all good.

Happy holidays, Bob

Like any tool, a Retes board and stack of retes boards, has a use and is to provide temp and humidity choices, and secure shelters. If it doesn't, its because the keeper is not using the tools right. That is like, using a drill to loosen a nut.

So please, if your going to use Retes boards, find out what they are suppose to do before you go saying naive things. Oh by the way, if they are splinters on the wood, SAND THEM OFF.

Also, Retes boards are a simple easy way to accomplish those goals, there are many many other ways. And not all species are meant for their use. Many of the larger species rub their backs as adults, but as neonates, these boards are used well. Thanks Frank RETES

I have said this over and over, your stock or at least the same species of your stock, CAME FROM ME. Which means, they all were raised from hatchlings with these stacks and none lost their toes.

Its something your doing WRONG. Even if your stone stacks prevent the loss of toes, they are still being dehydrated, toe loss is an extreme symptom.

I really do not care if you use retes boards or not. There are many ways to accomplish what they do. I just hope you figure out what your doing something that can be prevented and will help your monitors. Cheers

Fr, FYI my stock Glauerti,Pilbarensis stock came from another person through Joe Lewis NOT you. Joe had stock of these species that came from you and other sources as well. I have never bought any varanid or anything from you period. I know your a bit older then me but come on LOL!
Bob

Your cornering yourself. You want to act smart. But, everyone knows Joe Lewis at Rare earth got those from me. Which means, yours came from me. Ask Joe. Cheers

Fr, over the many years that you were out of kims Joe did get some out of Canada and Europe he claimed. It's wheather you want to beleive it or not? Yes he did get his first pilbaras from you and then some from elsewhere. Even today the kims that come out of Canada can originate out of Europe and perhaps different blood because Canada as you know allows import/export of them. We can only speculate. In fact I do recall you claiming to get your pilbaras out of Germany so on a smart note [your own words] someone must of bred the ones you started with Im assuming? I doubt very much you know everything about what Joe or anyone did and they about you. People dont always spill themselves on forums.
Bob

Where did FR or anyone claiming to "start" Kims or Pils get their stock? I've wondered that for a long time. They are NOT in US zoos.

I will tell you what I told USFWS, some odatria came from Ron Tremper, others came from various reptile shows, mostly orlando and San Diego. At one show, Don and I found 22 storri. At the same show there was V.gleboplama and some very odd ackies, which I have never seen again.

At that time there was lots and lots of monitors available. All these varanids are appendix 2, which means, you do not need a permit, or need to know where they came from. They are all, no different then buying any boa or python, or any african or indo monitor. If you see one at a show, buy it, thats all there is to it.

You do not need to obtain import papers, or even recieve a reciept. The only hold back is shipping them from country to country.

I did get import papers with my gouldi, and two merterns, and womas. Which did not good at all, as they still refused reexport.

There were far more species then the ones established now. To bad.

Also at one time reptiles mag published a list of what has been legally imported. I contacted USFW and asked for that list, it somehow has been lost. The list was fairly extensive.

There is something lost here. and that is, each and every varanid excluding the few appendix 1's, requires the exact same papers to be imported. So does every person who buys a Sav request that permit? The answer is no, and its because its not required once they are inside the country. i know this, because I had lawyers look at the laws to make sure it was legal.

in fact there is more to this subject. Its also illegal to accuse, or insinuate that someone at a show or on the classifieds, has brought in any monitors illegally. Only a LEO can do that. You can be liable for doing that. My normal question was, is it legal, if the vendor says yes, we have a deal, if they say no, there is no deal. Its just that simple. And thats what I did.

I heard that FWS attempted to get me to purchase illegal monitors, The problem was, I would not buy them, hahahahahahahahaha you see, if they lie to you, by telling you the animals are legal, when in fact they are not, well, they just lost their own case.

The same goes for any vendor, if they lie, they are responsible. Its not our job to determine whos lying or not, thats the courts task, Only a judge can do that.

What else is funny, I did arrange to acquire V.gleboplama, and they were imported with papers, guess what FWS confiscated them, and killed them. And that was that. AND THEY HAD PAPERS. Again to bad, they would have been nice to have around. Cheers

I wasn't insinuating anything for starters. I was just generally curious how they all got here back in the 80's or 90's. There is most definitely a group of species here, species not here, and I was wondering the origins. I had heard about the Glebopalma - a single specimen - that was here but taken away not too too long ago. I could ask the same question about the Australian Nephrurus geckos too, but I don't really care about those personally.

There was also some glebos in the states. I actually purchased one at the San Diego show. Then changed my mind and took it back. As It was a single animal.

Then that fella sold a pair to a fella in Alaska, only the pair ended up being a pair of one. Then the guy would not take it back.

The fella in alaska also bought a pair of perenties and recieved eggs, only to have the whole group die for some cold arse reason.

I got my flavis from this fella in tucson, and some at the San Diego show. Whats funny is, that fella had pics of literally hundreds of flavis in bins that were in the states. And, they were on pet shop jobbers lists. I also got Gilleni from him. Again, on pet shop jobbers price lists.

I think in the late 80's, a whole lot of monitors came in, but no body did a thing with them. So they just hung around. The late 80's was before I got into monitors.

I actually was very lucky in that many of the animals I recieved were very old. I only failed with one pair and one day I will post pics. That species is not here now, and was by far one of the best species. The female bred and then did that ovarian explosion. To bad. Other then that, I did very well.

With the Lacies, I believe, I had the last female in the country. I hatched two eggs from her, she was also old and been in a box for many years. Those two eggs came out a pair, thank god.

Anyway, those days were crazy. There were even lots and lots of indo animals what were undiscribed, some very very weird ones. I was at a show in Penn. When I went over to this booth. It has this weirdo monitor, It was called a water monitor, but nothing even close. It was totally speckled and build way different then a salvator. I thought about it, then went over to buy it, and the fella said it was sold. He said, I sold the pair.,,,,,,,,,,,,,, he did not tell me there was a pair. I only thought he had one.

Which was common in those days, one here, one there. For instance, I had female kim for three years before I found a male. Of those three years, she was lose in my house for 1 1/2 years. hahahahahahahahahha true.

Anyway, those are days gone by.

Funny stories, Frank. I have heard quite a few similar that basically lots of animals came in from all sorts of places and there was zero regulation back then. I didn't mess with Monitors until college - 1993/4 and certainly there was no internet access back then. It was Raman noodles and Natty-Lite, so it was Savannahs and Niles too. I know the AK guy you mean now too. He still hatches Caudolineatus and does well with them, just doesn't do forums any more.

actually the regulations have not changed.

Holy shat Bob, thats not the point, your spining and spinning are you a democrat or something?

The point is, I produced hundreds and many obtained them from me, including Joe Lewis. All animals that I sold to him and others, all had all their toes and they were raised on Retes boards.

It also means exactly what you said, not only did I do this long before you, so did Joe, and others. This is the point. You did nothing new.

The point is, for some stinking reason, you will not talk about or show your enclosures, which are the subject of this thread, other then you spinning to avoid the point.

Bob act like a man and get to the friggin point. What are your enclosures like????????? God dang, talking to you is like holding a squid.

Thanks for the debate guys.

It is hard to get information that isn't one sided these days, you know where each side really believes in what they are saying, then the others can decide for themselves.

Cheers,
Mike.