Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click here for Dragon Serpents
Click for ZooMed
Click here to visit Classifieds

JLassiter-Global Warming or IceAge

pyromaniac Dec 28, 2010 10:13 AM

Sorry about a rather off topic subject, but I figured maybe attempting to start a discussion would be better than just ranting about how much I detest snow!
www.weatheraction.com/pages/pv.asp?p=wact10&fsize=0
Although I have mentioned John because he is sceptical concerning Global Warming, I am interested in what the rest of you think about this weather we are suffering through now. I always felt that although there might be something to Global Warming, what if we are having Global Cooling instead and are entering another ice age? Talk about bad weather!

I am being annoyed with possible snow again. But I really feel for the poor freezing folks in the Eastern U.S, Europe, the UK, and so forth. Their weather makes mine look pretty benevolent! LOL!

People from all over the world contribute to this forum; what are your various weather experiences of late?

I predict that the price of gasoline and other fuels will skyrocket in the coming months because of the extra cold weather. This will make shipping reptiles so expensive it will put some people out of the business.

Does anyone else have any predictions for the coming year?
-----
Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Replies (46)

DMong Dec 28, 2010 11:21 AM

My take is that there is indeed a trend of overall global warming, although it is very dificult for most people to grasp while it is much colder than it normally is in certain places at times. This of course would be very similar to a graph chart. The direction of a graph chart also goes up and down, but tends to go in one direction or another while still moving up and down in smaller increments.

It only takes one or two degrees to to throw things out of balance over a prolonged period of time. The dynamics of the way the earth does things is very complicated, and there are many facets that combine forces to create it's ever-changing state.

I have seen models of the way the ocean currents work, and what a huge affect just a few degrees in temperature will do to dramatically change the governing flow of the Gulf Stream and the way it coincides with the polar caps. This is what will cause the most drastic climate change in itself, because it will no longer go as far north as it normally does before it cools and sinks down, and then returns south again normally, which will in turn cause the frozen north to slowly creep southward into the next ice-age. But regardless of this, there will be another one anyway at some point. Our small amount of time in existence on this planet is nothing in the overall scheme of things, and the world will continue to change dramatically whether we are around to see it in our tiny "blink-of-an-eye" lifetime's or not.

I think we are simply drastically excellerating the inevitable to be quite honest.

When I saw the dynamics of how the ocean currents actually work is what really opened up my eyes up as to how global warming will affect the planet. It doesn't take much, it is just that most human's can't really fathom the complexity of this, and how it works in harmony with everything else that goes on. The last ice-age was only a mere few thousand years ago when it receeded to where it is today, and that is probably comparable to a person blinking their eyes in an entire lifetime in comparison to the countless ice ages that have gone on here in the past. Heck, at one time the entire planet was supposedly covered in solid ice one mile thick or something like that. That is simply impossible for most to comprehend, and so is bizarre-looking animals walking around 80 million years ago and far beyond.

If you think about it, we are just a mere nano-second "snapshot" life experiment on this planet. We will be doomed too just like everything else ever has been.....the true irony is it will probably be due to our own hand before it is something naturally occurring.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

monklet Dec 28, 2010 03:22 PM

Very sensibly stated Doug!

But, I am inclined to disagree with the last assertion that our demise will be of our own making. Granted, our actions may certainly affect population dynamics, quality of life, etc. but history suggests the human species is too wiley and adaptable to finish itself off entirely, even as a result of nuclear war or other environmental disturbance. What probably WILL finish us off is an inevitable ET impact of a magnitude comparable to the Chichalub (sp?) ET...but even that might not do it, so we may have to wait for the sun to explode and barbie us.

I'm not one to bite into this poppycock about colonizing other planets (a common "out" for those who might disregard the importance of maintaining a hospitable environment here on earth) ...at least not any outside this solar system.

And for all those who don't accept as fact human accelerated global warming. I don't either, it's just my best guess given what thousands more learned and "in the know" than I assert to be true. Of course they might all be in cahoots against "Big Oil", or coniving to gain grant money, but I'm not much into conspiracy theories either.

In either case, if global warming really is an issue, most of us will come to believe it within our own lifetime as the ultimate consequences become forcibly obvious.


-----
See all my snakes at SerpenTrack.com

Beaker30 Dec 29, 2010 08:04 AM

The problem with waiting until it becomes obvious is that by then it is usually too late. For example, in every ecosystem there is a carrying capacity for each species. If something happens like removal of a predator that keeps that species in check, that species population will dramatically increase. But it will increase far beyond its carrying capacity prior to crashing drastically. In other words, by the time the crash begins, it is has already been inevitable for some time.

Jlassiter Dec 28, 2010 12:12 PM

Weather occurs in cycles.....
We are just going through a cycle we have not witnessed before.
Folks talk about a mini Ice Age during the 1700s....

This Global warming ploy by the liberals is just another scare tactic that was put into place for the eco friendly manufacturers......

Al Gore is an idiot, but he did invent the internet ya know....LMAO!!!!
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Jlassiter Dec 28, 2010 12:27 PM

The last decade has reversed the trend of global warming and should erase the "scare."

http://www.nationalpost.com/893554.bin
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

CrimsonKing Dec 28, 2010 01:56 PM

....seems the earth has moved in cycles of ever "correcting" since the beginning...It will indeed cool and as sure as the sun has risen, will warm again too.
Has man hastened either?? Maybe. Can/should he try to "correct" it? Maybe.
If it warms, will it be better for some animals? Likely. And likely not so good for others here on the planet.
Will those be replaced? Likely...

:Mark
-----
Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Jlassiter Dec 28, 2010 02:18 PM

>>....seems the earth has moved in cycles of ever "correcting" since the beginning...It will indeed cool and as sure as the sun has risen, will warm again too.
>> Has man hastened either?? Maybe. Can/should he try to "correct" it? Maybe.
>>If it warms, will it be better for some animals? Likely. And likely not so good for others here on the planet.
>>Will those be replaced? Likely...

That is a great way of summing it up Mark!
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

monklet Dec 28, 2010 03:25 PM

I'll go with that! Much simpler than my long schpiel.
-----
See all my snakes at SerpenTrack.com

brianm616 Dec 28, 2010 05:04 PM

anyone ever listen to charlton heston's take on global warming?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozO4YB98mCY&feature=related

monklet Dec 28, 2010 05:09 PM

Priceless! ...reckon that settles it
-----
See all my snakes at SerpenTrack.com

Jlassiter Dec 28, 2010 06:18 PM

That is EPIC!
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

a153fish Dec 28, 2010 06:55 PM

about 12 or so years ago they were saying we are heading toward an ice age! The old timers in Central Florida say that Avocado and Mango trees were very common in this area. Many people had them in their yards. over the years winters here became more and more severe, till now there are very few tropical fruit trees left. I even lost a couple citrus trees due to cold weather last year. If anything we are probably getting colder not warmer. Didn't they expose some fraudulent data recently with the whole GW thing? I believe I saw a report that said there is no proof that the temps are actually getting higher over a ten year span. Regardless I think it's a way of scaring people into relinquishing their rights so the Governments of the world can save us from the big bad wolf.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

gregspencer Dec 28, 2010 07:01 PM

I really hate to see politics and science be brought up here in this forum. The reason being is because I instantly lose any and all respect for individuals who are so ignorant to the facts of science. The facts are clear. The science is there. Ignoring it and pretending it doesn't exist is ignorance in the most classic sense. Blaming it on politics is outright ludicrous. It's a sickness. It's called the sheep sickness. Just follow the sheep, don't ask or check the facts. Just follow the sheep. Even when they lead you right of the cliff. Oh yeah, of course... like following G.W. Bush when he took this country for a nose dive. Right off the cliff. Ignorance is bliss they say. Not believing Global Warming is real when the ice cap is dropping off in insane alarming rates is very blissful. This country is filled with ignorant people with the sheep sickness. Just check the facts.

Jlassiter Dec 28, 2010 07:07 PM

Then....You are one of the Sheeple for sure......LOL

Look at the graph I posted a link to....
There's a fact.....ha!

But it does depend on where you look on the internet to find what you want to see................lmao!!!!!
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Jlassiter Dec 28, 2010 07:09 PM

Greg.....
I have to ask.....
Where do you live? Where are you from?

I don't want to guess but I have an idea......lol
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

a153fish Dec 28, 2010 07:18 PM

My friend, I see you the same! just 180 degrees out of phase! There is no real data! So who is the real sheep? The ice caps are merely shifting. They have found areas where there is more ice, but if you focus on the areas where the ice seems to be diminishing then you can convince people it's disappearing. Question everything even so- called science! especially when it is being funded by the government. Do you know most so called cave men were fakes! They were fabricated because that's what they were being funded to find. Just one example of where science is influenced by politics. The politics of money.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Jlassiter Dec 28, 2010 07:48 PM

Wait....what makes it fact? If you read it on the internet or if you hear it from Al Gore's mouth?

Here's a great webpage.....Is it fact?

http://www.iceagenow.com/

Remember, we're still coming out of the last ice age. Ice is supposed to melt as we come out of an ice age. The ice has been melting for 11,000 years. Why should today be any different? I'm guessing that most Canadians and Northern Europeans are very happy that the ice has been melting.

Unfortunately, that millenniums-long melting trend now appears to be changing. No matter how assiduously Mr. Gore tries to ignore it, almost all of the ice-covered regions of the Earth are now gaining mass. (Or, displaying positive values, if you will.)
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Jlassiter Dec 28, 2010 07:50 PM

>>I really hate to see politics and science be brought up here in this forum. The reason being is because I instantly lose any and all respect for individuals who are so ignorant to the facts of science.

BTW.....Who here is 'ignorant?'

I believe those who have knee jerk reactions are.....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

gregspencer Dec 28, 2010 08:38 PM

Scientific facts in regards to the Global Warming were suppressed from the public during the Bush era.. These facts were certainly not being pushed upon us but the exact opposite.

No internet searching for my facts. You can watch it enough on the news easily enough. Remember when there was a huge chunk of ice the size of Rhode Island floating not too long ago? I saw that in the newspapers easily enough. I read, watch news, and am very active with enough to know it's real. Or, do you think the strange weather is just that.. strange?

Again, it's just plain ignorant to pretend to not see it. And if people want to be that way, well then that is truly the American dream now isn't it?

Just follow.. off the cliff we go. Bahhhh!! Bahhhhh!

gregspencer Dec 28, 2010 08:40 PM

Just watched not too recently some ice caps that were photographed within 10 years back. Now that same glacier is gone. Exact same spot they filmed it not too long ago.

Or, do you think the Bush administration was purposely pushing this upon us? Hmmmmmmmm........

Jlassiter Dec 28, 2010 08:46 PM

Do you know what hipocracy is Greg?
You are the definition of hipocracy calling your narrow minded views fact and others ignorant........

It is time for the ice to melt in those places......
They are expanding/growing/increasing in other places ya know.....Or do you?
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

gregspencer Dec 28, 2010 10:07 PM

LOL!! yeah, ok. The scientific community all show the facts. It is up to you see it how you wish. After all, I can only assume you really thought the culprits of 911 were actually in Iraq, right?? And that we are all much better off now. Right.....

China used to show (forced it) the citizens how cruel Tibet is. When the media showed how the Chinese Govt. was with the people of Tibet it was scoffed at. The Chinese said it did not happen at all. It was a ploy. Kind of like the Neo-Nazis about the holocaust. Right.....

The facts are there. You can interpret them as you wish.

The effects of Global Warming are causing the glacier ice caps to disappear. The effects of Global Warming are also causing some very strange and erratic weather patterns as well. Imagine that...

Hey buddy, no worries. I'm sure the liberals are behind it all. Must be a conspiracy. I guess time will tell what the hell the motive is huh. Vote Republican. Keep your rights. Stay stupid.

Jlassiter Dec 28, 2010 10:20 PM

WTF? Where did all that CRAP come from....hahahaha.......LMAO!!!!!!!

The best thing you can do for all of us is STFU!
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Jlassiter Dec 28, 2010 10:37 PM

If we vote liberal again we will all lose our snakes and guns.......One Big Ass Mistake America!
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

gregspencer Dec 28, 2010 10:39 PM

You mentioned Global Warming is a ploy from the liberals. Your first response to this thread in fact. Really??? You actually believe that?? That is beyond ignorant. But no worries, I am done with this nonsense. To argue with a fool makes one a fool. Cya.

Jlassiter Dec 28, 2010 10:44 PM

>>You mentioned Global Warming is a ploy from the liberals. Your first response to this thread in fact. Really??? You actually believe that?? That is beyond ignorant. But no worries, I am done with this nonsense. To argue with a fool makes one a fool. Cya.

LOL....not if I Cya first.....
Was that See-ya or Cover Your Ass (CYA)?
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

bone47 Dec 29, 2010 11:13 PM

John you are dead on balls right. Manmade Global warming was cooked up by a bunch of liberals, climatologists and conservationist. There is money to be had. Look at how rich Al Gore has gotten off of this. Climatalogists get grant money so for them to keep playing "Chicken Little" is job security. The granola eating conservationist (not all of them mind you) get to save the trees, spotted owls and stop the use of fossil fuels. This means people lose their jobs in the lumber, coal and oil industry due to heavy regulation. If the liberals had it their way we would all grow our own food, ride our bikes everywhere and live in communes. In my opinion global warming is due to Sun activity. There is a growing number of scientist who believe this and their data isnt rigged like the Manmade Global Warmers. Also in regards to CO2 one volcanic eruption puts as much CO2 into the atmospere as mankind has since the industrial revolution began. I will note that I think we due need clean air and water as well as less pollution. There is a happy medium but compromise isnt in the liberals vocabulary.

Bone

Jlassiter Dec 30, 2010 01:19 PM

Now, now Bone.....You may get chastised by that Greg guy.....Calm down a bit.....Everyone is entitled to their opinion though......LMAO!!!!!
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Beaker30 Dec 29, 2010 08:25 AM

I think originally tagging human influenced climate change as "global warming" was the big mistake. As many have said in this thread, the Earth does go through natural cycles of climate change of both warming and cooling. But those changes are also affected by the species alive at the time.

For instance, the plant life during the Carboniferous era was much different than it is today. Those plants existed due to the carbon dioxide to oxygen ratio at the time. They also lowered the carbon dioxide and raised the oxygen levels over time. This led to changing atmospheric and temperature conditions in which plants evolved. The Earth was once dominated by more "primitive" plant types such as ferns and conifers, to now being dominated by the more modern "flowering" types of plant. All of which was affected by climate change which occurred naturally. But the species alive at the time did have a profound effect on that climate also. By removing so much carbon dioxide from the atmosphere during photosynthesis, the greenhouse effect was reduced and temps slowly declined. Once it passed a certain level, the next ice age was inevitable.

Calling it global warming is a misnomer. But Natural climate change is occurring and is inevitable. But to think or maintain that it is happening regardless of human actions is myopic at best. We are the species alive at this period in the Earth's history that is having the major impact on ecosystems. To think that the tons of carbon dioxide the we emit into the atmosphere daily via the burning of fossil fuels while simultaneously harvesting large tracts of rain forest (which helps remove carbon dioxide) is not having an accelerating effect on climate change is literally nonsensical.

Humans are affecting climate change. We are not the sole reason the climate is changing, but we are influencing both the direction and speed with which it is occurring. We need to see ourselves as stewards of the earth. Not view the Earth as an unlimited resource to be used without discretion.

tgcorley Dec 29, 2010 10:29 AM

You make some nice points, Craig. Thanks!

Most climatologists prefer the term "global climate change" to "global warming" even though the temperature of Earth's oceans and atmosphere are increasing ON THE AVERAGE, which does NOT mean that it's getting warmer at every location on the planet. One reason for this preference in terminology is that it is more descriptively accurate at the local level, which is where most people (i.e., nonscientists) draw their inferences. The most pronounced warming has been observed at higher latitudes -- not in the lower 48 (witness the shrinking of the annual sea-ice extent in the Arctic Ocean and the accelerated melting of the Greenland ice cap).

Warmer air (in the Arctic's case, not WARM air, just warmer than usual) can hold more moisture, which has led to snow coverage in Siberia being earlier and more extensive than usual this year, which in turn has led to greater deviations in the jet stream, which has recently pulled unusually cold air into northern Europe, which has had record low temperatures over the past weeks. Thus "global warming" can lead to record low winter temperatures in the so-called temperate zones. The point is that to understand what's happening with climate on a global scale, one should not focus on one's local weather, but rather on the larger (global) scheme of things. Weather and climate are related, but they are not the same thing.

More meaningful discussions and policy decisions can be made if the public is well informed about the science of climate change. It is indeed unfortunate that now many folks in this country are being actively misinformed by some media outlets that are motivated more by the politics of their presidents and boards of directors rather than a desire to provide the most accurate information to the public. I think that we "can handle the truth", and that we deserve better. OK, I'll come down off the soap box.

I'll close with this: Best wishes to all for a happy, healthy, and prosperous 2011!

a153fish Dec 29, 2010 02:56 PM

I guess well informed, depends on who you believe?
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

a153fish Dec 29, 2010 02:59 PM

Here are some links to the false data that was exposed. Who can we believe?

Data manipulation?

-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

tgcorley Dec 29, 2010 10:00 PM

I often find it is useful to help decide which "side" of an argument might be the more valid by looking at motivation and also keeping an eye on the money and where it's coming from. Ask yourself, what would possibly be motivating the overwhelming majority (literally thousands) of mainstream scientists to conspire together to invent and perpetuate a hoax that humans are impacting Earth's climate? Then ask yourself what could possibly be motivating the fossil fuel industry to spend billions of dollars a year to promote the idea that global climate change is not due to human activity? Which side has more to gain (especially in the short term)? Food for thought.

kingsnake1 Dec 29, 2010 10:36 PM

don't for one minute think that all those "impartial" scientists don't have a reason to fudge the numbers. If there is no man-made global warming, then their multi-million dollar federal grants dry up real quick. Think they wouldn't bend a few rules, change a few data points to save their pot os gold? Do you think those tycoons (like Al Gore) that have all those carbon credits to sell to those polluting industries want that to end. They all have ulterior motives. I don't trust either side.
-----
Greg Jackson

Beaker30 Dec 30, 2010 11:51 AM

Scientists are not driven by grant money as you imply. Nor do they make up investigations just to get grant money. Science is driven by observations, which raise questions, which are then investigated. If the preliminary investigations yield pertinent data, and further more in depth investigations are both required and relevant, then grant money is applied for. What you are implying would have to result in backward science, in other words, find something to investigate tailored to grant money. Thats just not the way it works.

a153fish Dec 30, 2010 05:28 PM

That's what happened with almost all the so-called Cave men. The grants were aimed at funding the discovery of missing links, so missing links they got. Almost all of them have been proven to be fakes. One was the toothe of a pig! That's all they found and the rest of the specimen was recreated from the finding of the one toothe. I used to know all the details but it's been a while. There is lot's of money to be made in Carbon credits. So any grants applied for which support the agenda will be easier to get. There are also many Scientists who don't believe in Global Warming but they are not given much publicity by mainstream media. There are many ways to manipulate the data.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Beaker30 Dec 30, 2010 08:58 PM

I dont believe in global warming either. But I do believe in global climate change. And common sense alone tells us that humans are more than capable of altering things enough to have an impact ecologically. Thats not saying we are the sole cause...but humans do influence it to a measurable degree. To believe otherwise is simple denial.

pyromaniac Dec 31, 2010 09:53 AM

www.mhest.com/deserts_article.php
Likewise, much of the Mediterranean littoral has experienced varying degrees of desertification from excessive resource use beginning in the Roman era.
History confirms that humans have had a profound influence on the earth. The earth will of course survive; humans may not.
-----
Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

a153fish Dec 31, 2010 03:14 PM

I don't completely agree with this article. Much is speculation. Then the UN getting involved well, now we know it's a worthy cause right? Cause they don't have any agenda. Desertification as I learned about it years ago is a ntural occurence that happens and has been happening for thousands of years. I don't think GW has anything to do with it. I also doubt man is the culprit since it happens along almost all deserts on earth.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

pyromaniac Dec 31, 2010 04:33 PM

The Dust Bowl was a desertification in the making. Poor farming practices combined with a drought caused this. People changed the farming methods and saved most of the land. This was not that long ago, easily verified historically.
-----
Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

a153fish Dec 31, 2010 10:42 AM

We probably do have some impact, but nothing near what is being perpetuated. Volcanoes alone spew more co2 than we could ever hope to amount. I do believe the destruction of the rain forests will have an impact for sure. But I know here the lumber companies are not stupid, they plant much more than they cut down. They don't want their buisness to run out. And as for oil and coal there is still so much we can't even phathom it. We have more in this country than we know what to do with, but politics won't let us get to it.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

pyromaniac Dec 29, 2010 02:56 PM

Thanks, everyone, for these most interesting and informative viewpoints.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/
Would have posted this as link but for some reason link wont go there from here; a government plot of some sort? LOL!
A fun site to see what is going on in the world. Check out the rate of desertification globally. Between climate change and the loss of arable farm land due to human mismanagement, humanity is heading for some major upheavals.
-----
Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

JYohe Dec 29, 2010 03:34 PM

winters are worse....summers are worse...I cannot stand looking at the sun anymore...yes I am getting old...and no you shouldn't look at the sun...but remember when we were kids you would be out all day fishing and the sun didn't bother us as much...

I think humans are killing this planet....no matter colder or hotter....we are killing it....faster and faster all the time...

...we better stop real soon.....

......we all have cars...cars are MY idea of the worst thing to use........

....little rants....
.
.
.
-----
........JY

JYohe Dec 29, 2010 03:38 PM

I forgot the trees vanishing from the whole world...period...

we are soooo stupid....I mean stoopid....

....
-----
........JY

pyromaniac Dec 29, 2010 04:43 PM

The thing I have most hated all my life is the paving over of the best farmland in the world in California to build subdivisions and shopping centers, etc.
-----
Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

kingsnake1 Dec 29, 2010 10:28 PM

But you still drive yours, don't you?
-----
Greg Jackson

Site Tools