Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I would like some opinions on adequate sized housing for zonata and pyros. I currently am housing them in 16 qt sterilite tubs on a custom rack that I build and also have a view cage on bottom for select breeding pairs. I was thinking of using pipe connections to attach two tubs and create more space for individuals. Any thoughts on what is a good sized tub for adults? Seems like everyone either thinks they have to have huge fancy cages or super small and ugly cages.

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Is that your rack? It is very nice, most efficient for breeding.

My ugly but very roomy 105 Sterilite quart tubs for my smaller pits and bigger pyros. Now empty as I have moved most of my snakes into these 40 and 30 gallon tanks, as I like to be able to see them. My baby pyros are in 10 gallon tanks but will be going into the tubs when they outgrow the little tanks.

I traded a bunch of mice for these 30 and 40 gallon glass tanks.

One of the babies in his 10 gallon tank. They are okay in those until they are about a year old. Then I like to upgrade them to something bigger so they can stretch out and get exercise. Also I like to give them moist sphagnum moss hides and other amenities, which require space. I give them deep aspen to burrow in, and terra cotta saucers to hide under and in between, like rock crevices in the wild.

For brumation I use the tubs without the connecting tubes.

I guess it depends on what your main plans are; racks are great for breeding but for pets I like the glass tanks.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

That is just one of the many racks I have built, it is constructed of a wood frame and pvc platforms for the shelves. Flexwatt for heat on the tubs. and the bottom use to have a wine chiller for brumation or incubation. My fridge or outside was more efficient for brumation and tubs are better for incubation so I took the wine chiller out, sold it and built the view cage with panel board and installed light and heat all controlled by the switches on the top storage shelf.

oh and by the way, that is a sweeett idea for tubing. Very similar to what I had in mind, what is that tubing and used for what? where can it be purchased.

The tubing is RV sewer hose, for sewer lines. I can be had at any place that sells RV parts.
www.walmart.com/ip/Camco-10-Standard-Sewer-Hose/14504315?findingMethod=rr
hardware.hardwarestore.com/30-146-rv-plumbing/straight-coupler-668470.aspx
Needless to say, I use new parts! LOL! When you first take the hose out of its box it may smell sort of plasticky, but quickly gasses out and does not bother the snakes.
The Dremel tool makes doing the round cut easy. Make sure the plastic tub is warm first, so it does not crack. The round hole has to be just big enough to accommodate the coupler snugly. I use a coupler as a template, and a felt pen to circle the circumference.

Don't use ferret tubing as it is fragile and see through. Not if you have cats, at least! Besides, the snakes like the dark tubes. You can use your imagination as to how long you want to have the tunnels. If a snake goes into the tunnel and wont come out you can pull the coupler out of the tub and gently shake it out.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

the pipe idea remids me of the Applegate style enclosures where the snake can use a hole/pipe to go into a lower level hide drawer that could be pulled out. I would imagine that such secretive snakes such as pyros and Z's would really appreciate the tubing that leads to another area...seems kind of fun for a snake ha!
I have my adult pyro and Z in glass tanks that are about 20gallons Long...all naturalistic style setups. Size wise, I'm sure they can live in smaller areas.
Although I am not a huge fan of racks for snakes (just my preference for visual aesthetics), I am sure racks work great for them. Nice set up!

Zach, you are exactly right with the viewing points. Things are much more interesting when they are easily observed in glass aquariums. I use to do that until my breeding projects became larger and larger.
I still revert to my old ways of being able to view my animals by putting my own touch into each rack with at least one glass enclosure like seen on the bottom of this rack.

Do you keep many z's?

Yeah man, it is always a good thing to be able to see your favorite snakes! I have a really small collection at the time, due to size restrictions-being a college student kinda sucks for money and space haha-so I only have two pyros and a permit bred zonata multicincta (I'm in CA) that was generously gifted to me, as well as an old L.t.annulata when I used to breed them.
Post pics of your snakes!

What part of cali do you live in?? Thats cool that they allow you to have a permit bred sierra. I know you can own one but what do you mean by permit?

LOL....what's goin' on buddy.......i find that zonata do just fine in the smaller enclosures such as the 32 quart blanket boxes. By giving them stacks you also increase the usability of available space within their enclosure and can allow for greater choice selections, as well as variability of thermoregulation depending on your arrangement. As a general statement, z habitat isn't "vast" as they are fossorial and utilize smaller niches which provide for the functions they require & engage in. here's an example of what I use which has yielded excellent results:

Animal Plastics rack with 3" FlexWatt set at 85F at the rear:

Top view of a Santa Monica pulcra coming out of her 3-layer stack:

Damp hides are also important, particulrly for hatchling and juvenile zonata:

Stacks can be made for small and larger z's or pyro's.......simply select the appropriate size tiles. This kind of security is gratly beneficial and allow them to do what comes naturally, which is the best choice for them to feel secure:

Hatchling stack:

Adult stack:

I sometimes allow same-sex pairs to occupy one tub as, again, stacks afford more usable space. It works well for me with no negative outcomes. These are two female black & white (axanthic/anery) zonata multicincta:

And even for some adults, like this Santa Clara coastal zonata, I tend to provide an occasional damp box usually during a shed cycle:

And lastly, the occasional stroll in the grass is optimal during spring and fall. Even this St.Helena/Napa zonata zonata would agree.

Best of wishes Tim in all your endeavors!
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Nice pictures, I got those stack Ideas from you on Facebook and Love it, I also started providing moist hides and they really appreciate that as I have noticed them inside of them very frequently. It also creates a cooler temperature on that side of the cage. These 16 qt tubs on the rack are going to be connected when I get a chance to do some modifications and I also have another rack with the bigger tubs you describe. Thanks for all the ideas!!!

Okay, I'm out to buy some tiles! Thanks for the awesome idea of stacks. I stack terracotta saucers for my pyros and smaller gophers. I like this glued together with shims tile thing better as you can add height yet maintain stability.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Great post showing and explaining the tight hides these snakes frequent in nature Jerry. This no doubt helps make them feel right at home as they would in rocky outcrop crevices..

Some smoker individuals there too I might also add....wooo-hoo!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

The stach idea isnt mine actually.....it was bequeathed via an argument long ago in this very forum from Frank Retes, the fella who is THE kingsnake pioneer and who also witnessed The Big Bang. LOL. Although he can be a pain in his information delivery, I've come to like 'em kinda....so I thank him for his knowledge and experience. FRANK, CAN YOU HEAR ME?

Anyway, thanks for te kind words fellas. Happy New Year!
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

my apologies for the mis-spellings and seemingly dyslexic-like communication.....a couple of keys are broken which makes typing a bit of a challenge. repairing it is in my 2011 to-do list.
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Jerry, Seems like I have seen that idea used with certain species of lizards before. Any problems keeping your structures clean?

--Dennis

>>Jerry, Seems like I have seen that idea used with certain species of lizards before. Any problems keeping your structures clean?

I would think that if you make them out of PVC you could wash them in your dishwasher.......

I have a husbandry tool I am working on myself and that was the main concern to those I shared the prototype with.....
Now I am working on building those out of PVC....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

I'm proud to say that MY structure is just fine and is always clean, thank you........lol.........

Seriously though, at first I fused the tiles together with the non-toxic glue (via glue gun)....and then I realized after making the first few that cleaning them would be an issue. So I began placing glue on the bottom side of the dowel and letting it dry so that it provided a "cushion", if you will, without connecting it to the next stack. This way, there is less possibility for "sliding" of the top stack and I can now just dis-assemble them for cleaning when it's time to do so.

If this is'nt entirely clear, look at it this way -- the stacks just come in layers that rest atop eachother without being "fused" together....hope this is clear.

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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Great idea Jerry......
I never doubted you.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
www.coastalbendcaptivebreeding.com

Jerry,
you really gotta stop with these awesome zonata and pics man....getting everyone here jealous!
Gorgeous snakes, as always. That Santa Clara (was it not a San Mateo locale?) is stunning!

Thank you much for the kind words. That was indeed a Santa Clara snake. Here is a young San Mateo snake as an example, and hopefully I won't get asked to hand over it's tail to prove it is. All the best...

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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Here are some fancy stacks for smaller montane kings. Honestly, the stacks Jerry showed are cheaper, easier and work the same as these I show.

I am making new ones to try on rosyboas and heat from above. It takes alot of material to make a stack for an adult rosyboa. Something I do not want to do in a plastic rack.

I have one made from granite counter scrap - weighs alot! I think tile is easier/cheaper.

This stack idea was tried and used many decades ago. Somehow the idea was lost to my generation and newer herpers. I'm glad to see it posted here. Stacks work awesome especially when heated from above using CHEs.

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Mark

The stack style hides seem to be quite effective with allowing for proper thermoregulation and temperature gradient. I remember reading something about stack hides for Varanus acanthurus (spelling?) in an old reptiles Magazine...maybe by Retes?

How does one heat a stacked hide area, though? Wouldn't a basking spot that heated the top most layers while elaving the lower levels cooler work best? For example, a Z in a rockpile would probably travel up to surface rocks or a crevice for some sunlight warmth, and travel but underground or into the rock when it gets too hot. If it was solely heated by a side or bottom heat pad/strip/etc, would that effect this sort of thermoregulation?

^^ the above is just a thought and question, not a critique.
As of right now, my pyro and z tanks are heated by pads on the side and bottom of the tanks. On colder days here in San Francisco, I will usually turn both pads on, cooler days, just the side one. There is plenty of room for the snakes to escape the mild heater (only like 6-8 watts?) and pockets of moist sphagnum, so I'm not too worried about dehydration or overheating.

I used the z stack ideas that Jerry provided me and I have mine against the back wall that is heating to about 85 in my rack and notice that the pyros and z's seem to move in and out of every layer i have made front and back and love it.

If you had the space and use aquariums like you had previously described to me, I would say you can build a bigger stack for yours and provide some low wattage heat via ceramic heat emitter or red bulb to the top of the stack and yes, the wild instincts of thermoregulation would work great!

That is the beauty of a stack when heated from above - the top layer gets warm, and subsequent layers get less heat. If the reflector dome is angled a bit towards the stack and the stack is deep enough front to back, then you get front-to-back temperature gradient as well.

What I like about the stack idea is that you do not have to worry so much about temperature. As long as the cool area is cool enough, the top of the stack can be any reasonable temperature in a fair range. I've done 100-plus deg when ambient temps are low so that the bottom is still cool enough.

What some of those folks do with back heat against the stack works too. So does bottom heat. Snakes really do not care if the heat is from below or above. But montane kings really do best with a large gradient, and stacks help in that way.
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Mark