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Single or multiple males - opinions????

rainbowsrus Jan 05, 2011 12:42 PM

I might be opening a can of worms but so be it....

Do you think a female should be bred with only male per season or is rotating multiple males a good idea?

Obviously there are some perceived advantages with both methods...

Single male - genetics / lineage known and traceable.

Multiple males - higher probability of producing a viable litter with each individual female.

The real question is - does the value of knowing the lineage outweigh the possible increase in viable litters produced?

Way back when. I bred my BRB's in a colony with two males and several females. the problem I soon realized was not knowing who dad was, I could not for sure say any two babies were fully unrelated.

Since then I've changed my methodology to breed in pairs or trios with only one male per group. Now I can trace back the lineage on every baby and know exactly how related or unrelated they are.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Replies (10)

MoonlightBoas Jan 05, 2011 12:55 PM

Personally, I think when breeding Brazilian Rainbow Boas and most other snakes, a single male is the way to go. Knowing the lineage and genetics definitely outweighs any possible advantages of using multiple males. I'm not convinced that using multiple males really has any advantages. Occasionally something cool pops out of nowhere, and it's important to know for sure which parents/genes produced it.

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Paul D


www.MoonlightBoas.com

MoonlightBoas Jan 05, 2011 01:51 PM

There is nothing inherently wrong with using multiple male boas to breed a female, it's just far from ideal. I believe most of us who breed Brazilian Rainbow Boas attempt to selectively breed for color and pattern. Knowing the genes involved is essential to that process. Anyway, it can be beneficial to give a female a year off occasionally.

By the way Cliff, those babies you picked up look like they have great potential and I can't wait to see more pictures as their color comes in.

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Paul D


www.MoonlightBoas.com

BuzzardBall Jan 05, 2011 05:39 PM

Mark me down for single male! Tracable genetics is my reason! I hate these Ball breeders who breed females to 2-3 different males, produce babies and then post "what do I have" threads!

rainbowsrus Jan 05, 2011 07:03 PM

I hate these Ball breeders who breed females to 2-3 different males, produce babies and then post "what do I have" threads!

Answer is - they have baby ball pythons!!
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

BuzzardBall Jan 05, 2011 07:54 PM

Alright Horshack, I shoud've said 2-3 different morph males! LOL

PHLdyPayne Jan 06, 2011 05:36 PM

I am pretty sure in the wild, female snakes are bred by more than one male. Some species have techniques to make it more difficult for other males to get the job done, from aggressive sperm, sperm plugs, staying 'locked' for extended periods of time to ensure their sperm fertilizes any available eggs etc. Boas mate many times, so plenty of time for a male to mate with a female and move on, for other males to come and try their chances. This does give the female the opportunity to store alot of sperm, all of various health etc and give her a higher chance of all her eggs being fertilized.

On the breeders side, using more than one male per female just makes it impossible to accurately determine who's the 'daddy' of the offspring without genetic testing. Since most breeders don't have the time or money to do DNA comparisons for each baby they produce, its not practical to use multiple males.

I know many ball python breeders seem to like to toss in as many different males in with a female as they have available...this does cloud the genetics..but most use co-dom and dominant morphs. As only one male can be the daddy of any given baby, it gives a greater variety of potential morphs in the litter.

Codom and dominant morphs in ball pythons (I think the trait terms are actually mixed up in ball pythons...but I am no genetic expert) when bred to a normal have a 50% chance to produce visual morphs. So using different types of codom and dominant morph males with a normal female...you get a chance to have different types of these co-dom/dominant morphs in a single clutch.

Personally I think this is a silly way of doing it...as ball pythons have such small clutches sizes (average maybe 4-5 eggs) and rarely double clutch...why reduce the odds of getting multiples of a single morph type by mixing in several types...when you can just get a couple more females and match them up with individual males and have a greater chance to produce multiple babies of a given morph.

Using multiple males of dominate and co-dominate morphs in species of snake that produces larger clutch sizes would make more sense to me. If the average clutch size is 20 eggs, greater chance to get multiples of the morph of each father used, as well as normals etc.

Using recessive morphs, even visual morph males to normal or het females...would make it even harder to figure out who the father really was in a multiple male pairings. It may speed things up if you are trying to combine different recessive traits into future generations..but it would be a hit and miss in combining the offspring to get the final result. Unless of course all males used were of the same morph (ie 2 or more albino males for example) It may work to help mix up the gene pool. However, again, it would work just as well using different females with a single unrelated male of the recessive morph. Or having unrelated pairs completely...then mixing their offspring up, as you will have unrelated offspring as well, between the two clutches. Would be far easier to track the genetic lines etc.

So, on a breeding perspective, using multiple males really isn't useful. Not if the breeder wants to keep clear genetic paths in the offspring.
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PHLdyPayne

Forum Princess

BuzzardBall Jan 07, 2011 08:38 AM

Yeah, what she said!

Jeff Clark Jan 06, 2011 10:11 PM

I used to use the orgy breeding method. If a female was receptive I put as many males with her as possible. I think, though I do not know for certain that this had the highest probability of producing the most babies. In recent years I have bred most of mine breeding one male to one or two females to keep track of parentage. I have done this because many people ask for unrelated pairs of babies. No matter how carefully we breeders keep track of heritage most of our baby snakes eventually are passed from the initial purchaser to other people and the heritage is either not passed along or not passed along acurately. Unfortunately we live in a throw away society. People who think they are getting an animal to keep for it's entire life pass it along after a year or two when they lose interest. For people who do stay in this hobby longterm and selective breed keeping track of heritage does make a difference but for most of the snakes we produce it does not matter. OTOH, I see enough surprisingly pretty snakes show up in litters from plain parents that I do not think that selective breeding is really so important. I am not sure if anyone has considered the inbreeding issue in this discussion. Selective breeding and especially selective breeding morphs usually involves some degree of inbreeding. I suspect that if it were not for the morphs someone would have emphatically argued that inbreeding is "bad". It seems to me that inbreeding snakes should be avoided if possible but does not usually cause any problems. I have posted this as a mostly dissenting opinion to what others have posted in this thread. I have these opinions because I am so disappointed to see what has happened throughout the reptile hobby with so many people getting into and out of snakes so rapidly that there are so many unidentifiable snakes out there being passed along from owner to owner. The problem is the worst with the Ball Pythons. Selective breeding for morphs has produced so many different looking BPs that they have become much like guppies and parakeets. Lots of BPs out there are unidentifiable except as Dave said they are BPs. I wonder if through all of this anyone has taken the time to keep any BP bloodline in a pure "normal" state. It would be a real shame if either through political situations or extinction wild normal BPs were no longer available to us and we had hundreds of thousands of morph combinations in captivity here with no "real" BPs to be had.
Snakes are great, people suck!
Grouchy Jeff

Jeff Clark Jan 07, 2011 03:37 PM

Cliff,
...There you go....blame it all on the greed of the capitalist breeders instead of the irresponsibility of the proletariat class that buys the baby snakes.
...I am not sure if the use of multiple males to increase litter size has been studied in boid breeding but I am sure it has with other reptiles and also mammals and birds.
...I think that breeders who sell each baby with photos of the parents are doing a good thing but in my case I would rather not show people some of my animals or let people know the exact composition of my collection. To each his own.
...I am not quite so grouchy today.
Life is good!
Jeff

natsamjosh Jan 07, 2011 04:25 PM

"That’s been one of my worries with cross-breeding (different types of rainbows to each other). All we can do is try."

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Well, not to open up the can of worms even more, but what defines "different types", Cliff?

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