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lavender albino eastern kingsnake info

willstill Jan 14, 2011 05:29 PM

Hello,

Many folks have been contacting me requesting information on the lavender eastern kingsnake that is being offered for sale in the classifieds. While I no longer own this animal and have no financial stake in it, I do know the history as it was told to me from the point of purchase. I will relay all that I know. In 2000 or 2001 I heard of the lavender albino and contacted the seller - Cold Blooded Novelties in NY. I do not recall the name of the person I spoke with at the point of purchase. The dealer told me that the snake was wild bred from a NC female and that two lavenders were hatched. The other lavender was reportedly kept by the dealer and subsequently died. I purchased the available snake for less than $100.00 (I do not recall exactly what the purchase price was, but it was between $50.00-$100.00). In the years between the point of purchase and finally selling the animals, I lost contact with the business and was unable to investigate the source of the snake further. I raised the lavender eastern for ten years and bred it only twice. The first time, the snake was bred to a medium banded GA female and produced a small clutch of hets. I kept the lone female and gave the males to friends as pets. None of the surviving male hets have been bred. The second time, I bred the lavender male to his het daughter and produced another small clutch of babies that did poorly. All of the babies died within a year, including a spectacular red-chained lavender albino that died within a week or two of hatching. I never bred the lavender albino again. Over time, my interests veered away from albino kingsnakes and I decided to sell the pair. I very recently sold the pair (lav. male & het female) for $500.00, which I felt was fair considering that the history as I knew and reported it was somewhat sketchy and could not be confirmed further. If I had rock solid data on the snake, I would have encircled the globe with lavender albino easterns many years ago, and retired. However, considering what I knew, or more importantly, what I did not know, I did not feel that I could produce these snakes and represent them as pure easterns in the market in good conscience. The snake looks like an eastern to me and others that have seen it, and I do believe that it is an eastern kingsnake, but I cannot prove it, and for me that was the deal breaker and the reason lavender albino easterns have not entered the market sooner.

I hope that I have answered all of inquiries that have been posed(and there have been lots of them). This is everything I know about the snake. Thanks.

Will

Replies (28)

DMong Jan 14, 2011 06:45 PM

Thanks a bunch for the history on that Will!. I've been wondering about the history of that snake for quite some time.

Quite a looker!

And to think they were practically being GIVEN away for a mere (blank) just recently..LOL!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Jeff Schofield Jan 14, 2011 10:39 PM

Thanks Will. Seems like you got more pestered than me,lol.

Jeff Schofield Jan 15, 2011 06:54 PM

Will, Scott got back to me with info on Frank moving to NC so the line isnt cold. When I get his response I will post....

KevinM Jan 15, 2011 08:16 PM

I just purchased an animal from Frank at Coldblooded Novelties, and he is indeed in NC. Check out the classifieds, he is around.

Jeff Schofield Jan 16, 2011 11:02 AM

Will, just got off the phone with him and he laughed that this was an unrehearsed conversation. He remembered you and your efforts with this line years ago and is very happy to hear its still alive and kicking! Here is the rest of the story, anyone inquiring feel free to contact Frank further and I can email you his number! Now for the rest of the story....
The original line of Albino Easterns came from a wc adult from Kevin McCurly(NERD). Steve Kahn(Frank describes him as having to have albino everything)got the first hets Kevin produced. When bred together they produced not only red eye but lavender eye albinos! He got them from Steve(also in NC)and Will's story gets pasted on here. Frank assured me up and down that these are 1000% "pure" Getula Getula, it happened so long ago that it is all but impossible to believe someone could have done anything unforseen. To me it is sounding alot like Shannon Brown's line of T positive Nelsoni but time will tell....

DMong Jan 16, 2011 12:12 PM

"When bred together they produced not only red eye but lavender eye albinos!"

Jeff, what do you mean "lavender eye"??. Nevermind the eyes!... Are you saying there were both t-neg.(amelanistics) and lavender MORPHS produced by them??, or there was simply a difference in the eye color in them?. Big difference here, see what I mean?

Yes, if there was a big difference in body color phenotype(such as Wills(your)animal, then yes, a huge difference, but only in the eye color, NOT so much as they can vary some in many true t-neg. amel individuals.

Believe me, I certainly know the difference in all of these things here, I'm just trying to understand exactly what you were saying in your post as you just mentioned the "eye color" only. Because if there were light colored totally amelanistic animals, as well as lavenders with deep ruby-red/blood colored eyes, then I roll right along with something bizarre going on such as in the t-plus nelsoni inheritence indicative of co-dom traits in boids and such.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Jeff Schofield Jan 16, 2011 12:47 PM

Doug, I got some of the "original" line T-, Amelanistic, "true albinos", the lav albino is not them as anyone can see from the pic in that kingsnake book. I use eye color because I really like Tony D's description..."cant call em T positive without a test"(more or less right Tony?). Frank claims this lav albino came from 2 hets for Amel from the original line! Breeding trials will begin and I will be looking for a adult female Albino chain from the normal line(my females are a year away)to pick up before the season if possible(inquire about breeding loans people). I also have one of his daughters so I'm figuring if its a het gene she should produce some. I will have to catch up with Shannon to see what his have been up to...BTW, hoping to take some new pics today!

Jeff Schofield Jan 16, 2011 12:52 PM

We now know that the "T-" gene in the Chain king line is compatible with "T-" Brooksi line thanks to Zenny....Yet Rainer(to my knowledge)hasnt had anything strange come up in his "Double albino" line....so he may have info to add as well. Obviously I dont want to breed him with a lav brooksi to check.

DMong Jan 16, 2011 01:29 PM

I am very glad to hear that you do not intend to breed your lavender to a brooksi, but I'm afraid that will unfortunately happen soon enough in the future anyway once some become available.

I am only interested in the lavender Eastern/amel thing here, not what might gene might be compatible with any of the floridana morphs. I could give two craps about that aspect of it.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

DMong Jan 16, 2011 01:30 PM

.
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Bluerosy Jan 17, 2011 08:39 AM

....Yet Rainer(to my knowledge)hasnt had anything strange come up in his "Double albino" line....so he may have info to add as well

Well the T negative is allelic (compatiple) with the peanut Butter. That makes them pretty unusual.

I bred T neg to lav and PB to lav. Bred the hets back to one another and cross bred the PB x lav hets to the T neg x lav hets and got all sorts of things.

I am sure this info of mine does not help but just confuses things even more.
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www.Bluerosy.com

DMong Jan 16, 2011 01:18 PM

As I mentioned earlier, I already KNOW the difference between that lavender animal and a true T-neg. amelanistic!!..LOL!

In the book it states "Will Still(pers. comm.) that the lavender animal supposedly originated in a clutch of eggs from a female caught in North Carolina. Two lavender snakes hatched out in the brood, and will obtained one of them. But it doesn't mention anything about any t-neg. amels whatsoever?

Just wondering where the t-neg. amels fit into this picture?. See what I mean?. I am NOT claiming anything about them NOT being involved either, just stating what is quoted about them in the book. You are saying there was a mixed clutch of both somewhere along the line. I am just wondering here, because it sounded to me like two lavender's popped out of an otherwise "NORMAL" clutch of Easterns. See what I am getting at?........I just want to know which story is valid. Will got ONE, and the other went somewhere else, I am guessing this is correct, right?. So what did Frank produce with his single lavender individual? The stories have to coincide, or something isn't quite making sense to me, see what I mean? The ENTIRE story has to be thoroughly understood, not just certain bits and pieces of it..........I am simply interested in the entire story about exactly what was produced and from what....know what I mean?

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Jeff Schofield Jan 16, 2011 01:57 PM

Just wondering where the t-neg. amels fit into this picture?. See what I mean?. I am NOT claiming anything about them NOT being involved either, just stating what is quoted about them in the book. You are saying there was a mixed clutch of both somewhere along the line. I am just wondering here, because it sounded to me like two lavender's popped out of an otherwise "NORMAL" clutch of Easterns. See what I am getting at?........I just want to know which story is valid. Will got ONE, and the other went somewhere else, I am guessing this is correct, right?. So what did Frank produce with his single lavender individual? The stories have to coincide, or something isn't quite making sense to me, see what I mean? The ENTIRE story has to be thoroughly understood, not just certain bits and pieces of it..........I am simply interested in the entire story about exactly what was produced and from what....know what I mean?

Doug, if its in HUBBS' book then it HAS to be true!! We know what kind of a even handed class act stickler for detail he is!! ROFLMAO~~ Obviously Frank said that the 2 lav albinos were from the same litter Will was talking about. I would even be willing to accept NERDs NC chain king breeding, per Franks conversation. Now do realize that this was more than 10 years ago, small ommissions understandable. But Frank said that his part of the line died out and that the transaction with Will did indeed happen. And YES, I do know the T plus T- thing too, and I bring up Brooksi because if this is true chances are these WONT breed true with them. Which would be wonderful considering the legitamacy of that line is highly suspect to begin with.

bone47 Jan 16, 2011 09:10 PM

I was under the impression that the Albino Chain King NERD had originated from Tennesse. The story of this is as old as the hills and researched deeply by Terry Dunham. The thing is that there are no Eastern Kings in Tenn. just Black Kings.

Bone

KevinM Jan 16, 2011 09:14 PM

Only the Colonel knows his secret recipe for sure LOL!!!

DMong Jan 16, 2011 09:57 PM

Certainly nothing etched in stone, but here are just a couple history's on that particular amel line. I have TONS of history's of many morphs and stories saved..........I hate beating the dead horse, but every once in a while this comes up, so here are a couple interesting tid-bits for the gallery..LOL!

More amel getula info
from- Terry Dunham

According to the range map in Brian Hubbs' great book "Common Kingsnakes: A Natural History of Lampropeltis getula", the Chattooga River is throughout its length solely in the range of Lgg, not nigra, and not an Lgg-nigra intergrade zone.

I found the transcript of an interview i did with Kevin McCurley in 2003. The remarks below include the transcript AND corrections/additions he made to the transcript when i sent it to him for review. Kevin's conclusion was "I feel 100% certain" it is an eastern king, adding, "I have no other reason since I derive no monies from the project at this point." The transcript included his recollections.

Kevin said the albino:

"Came from a good ol' boy who bought snakes collected by local college
kids and sold them. That was more than ten years ago,

"I think around 8 years ago!!

"I was just getting started, i don't remember his name. But I'd gotten chain kings from him before and he called me and said he had an albino chain king, he wanted
to trade up, he wanted to get into blood pythons, things like that. So I
bought it. I wasn't sure what i'd get. We were actually doing some trading and he kind of pulled it out and said he also had that...he did not start the conversation with that intent.

2. DESCRIPTION

"I had chain kings and when it arrived I compared it to them and thought,
'this is it, a chain king'. I wasn't sure what he was going to send
me--an albino chain king or some other kind of king? So when I got it I
sat there and stared at that snake and checked it against books and
checked the head it was identical to my other chain kings. I felt
absolutely 100% confident it was a chain king. Yes, I was possibly expecting some albino speckle mix or albino cal king...it was an albino and weird to compare to a normal chain but the scalation matched and it did not look like anything but a chain king..it was small...a juvie.

"It had a very, very nice chain pattern, and it grew into a very big,
stocky animal, a real thick neck.

3. GEOGRAPHY

"I heard Tennessee and a river bank in the story of where it came from. I
might have heard Chattanooga, might have heard Chattooga, i don't know
the region and the ranges. I was familiar with Chattanooga as a place...it may have been Chattooga.

"I remember (it was)

"Collected by college student.
"Riverbank
"Cha..whatever and TN. It may have been near Chattooga riverbanks near
TN....That was not exactly critical to me. I was just getting it because I
thought it was cool. I paid exactly $900.00 for it!!

"thought it was Chattanooga, but it was a river bank. (MY NOTE: remember there is no Chattanooga River) Wherever it was, all the other kings I got from the same guy
were chain kings. I never had black kings (other than the mexican kind). I have never had a wild caught black king(eastern) ever!!

4. FIRST BREEDINGS

"I had a few wild caught female chain kings, and i bred them to him and
produced hets and they all looked exactly like chain kings.

Post #2 from Dunham......

Additional amel getula history 9/10/2009
>>I heard rumors of an albino black kingsnake coming out of Tennesee or North Georgia. It supposedly came from the integrade zone so my personal belief is that some of the albino Eastern kings we see are probably descendants from that line.

That animal is probably one the history of which can be found by searching this forum. It was collected by a fella who lived in the chattanooga TN area but who was said to have collected regularly in georgia. (the fella who bought the albino had bought wild-types from the same guy before, and said they always were typical looking chain kings.)

Because he believed it to be a chain king, the buyer bred the albino to chain kings and eventually there was a good supply of them, so there's no doubt not just some but most of the amel "eastern" kings in the trade are from this line. I ended up with some and will post a pic. The chain pattern on the amels was narrower than on the hets (see pix) but i assumed the amelanism was affecting the pattern a little, as it does on some other morphs. One of the hets I got was supposedly a first-gen het, and it looked like Lgg, so I accepted that that's what they were. Of course, if the original amel WAS nigra but was bred to Lgg, the offspring would show intergrade appearance; if the original was a nigra/Lgg intergrade, because it was bred to Lgg the offspring would look much like Lgg. And, of course, if the original was an amel Lgg, the offspring would look like Lgg. So the visual evidence is hard to interpret.

The reason people wondered whether the original might be nigra or an intergrade was that in the buyer's early accounts of the acquisition, he said the collector mentioned "chattanooga" or "chatooga" or something that sounded like that: There's the city, of course, and there's the Chattooga River, where the movie Deliverance was filmed. (Wikipedia: "The Chattooga River serves as part of the boundary between Georgia and South Carolina after leaving North Carolina near latitude 35" There may be a second Chattooga River elsewhere in the SE, as well. At any rate, either the city or the river would put the collection site in nigra range or an intergrade zone (but close to the eastern end of it, in the case of the river). I reported the facts according to the original buyer at some length, and i'm sure someone will find that story and post it here.

Like you, I have no dog in this fight. They are what they are and like the hondurensis discussions on the milksnake forum, the precise answer may never be known.

Meanwhile, a photo or two... (note the link to a pic of an early het, just below the photos)
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

mikefedzen Jan 17, 2011 11:21 AM

I feel like I saw this discussion before, lol, maybe like 5 years ago... A lot of the details are still the same which is good, but it still looks doubtful that the NERD line was pure, and even if it is no one is going to believe it, lol. And wasn't there an actual FOR SURE albino getula getula found last year? GA maybe? I forget where I saw that at...
-----
Mike
KingPin Reptiles
www.kingpinreptiles.com

DMong Jan 17, 2011 12:39 PM

Oh I fully agree Mike!

All the pics I have EVER seen of them pretty much disclose they are getula x nigra intergrades. The extremely far apart thin, broken-chain pattern depicts this perfectly. I certainly didn't imply the info I posted they were anything different, just dropping it out there just for the heck of it.

Here are another couple stories regarding them. And of course there is also the story of the one found behind a dryer in a guys garage, then traded to a pet shop for a freakin Ball python for his young son..LOL!. And the other one where a farmer found aclutch of pure Eastern's in his compost heap, one of which was probably a very pure specimen going by where it was said to be captured.

~Doug

Another bit of amel getula history 9/13/09
from an email by ~ Phil Bradley

The animal was collected in 1992 in DeKalb Co by a gentleman who donated it to Zoo Atlanta. The animal then made its way to NC as part of an institutional donation. Another Eastern that was het for amel came at the same time from ZA. I will have to search a bit more to find additional information (this has turned out to be fun!).

Unfortunately, from the hobbyist perspective, this amel male will likely remain in the museum collection and be used in our educational programs. He might not be adding to the diversity of the captive breeding pool but he does help visitors gain an appreciation for snakes in general and eastern kings in particular (whose numbers have dropped drastically in those areas of the state that have seen rapid development).

I hope some of this was helpful/interesting, it certainly has been for me.

Another post regarding this 9/11/09
An additional post from forum member “camby”

Thanks for reposting that info, I forgot I had posted that a long time ago. Another note in regards to the Nerd Amel, one of the "issues" with that snake is that when albino babies were first made available, they looked almost like a cal king amel, not like a chain king. Fengya, myself and a few others stated our opinion that it didn't look pure. This was based on the fact that the head pattern looked cal king and NONE of the bands broke up on the sides. There were no more offered for another 2 years (that we saw) and then 2 full seasons later, the breeder advertised them again and this time the "same parents" produced babies that look like what we are seeing now.

That said, maybe the nigrita is the influence that casued the lack of chaining in the lateral pattern, but in the original story, the owner stated the snake was found on a river bank near the University of Tennessee and I do not think that is in the integrade zone..shrug?

Again, thanks for digging my old info up.

dc
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

DMong Jan 17, 2011 12:43 PM

Another amel “getula” story 9/10/09
by~ HDEAN

I know of another PURE one personally. Yes, I do hybrids but this has nothing to do with me. I personally was in a pet shop in Loganville, Georgia probably 15 years ago and saw an albino snake that at first glance thought was a thin banded Calf king. Looking closer it looked like a pure Eastern king. I asked the owner about it and he said just an hour before a person brought it in saying they found it in their yard and traded it for dry goods. This person didn't keep snakes. I told the guy DNR would just confiscate it and the Zoo would get it. He thought he could just put display animal on the cage and I told him that is still illegal. I knew of someone that might be interested and he gave him a call. They worked out a trade deal for pet supplies for that snake. $1000 worth of wholesale stuff I heard later. The snake was kept and I heard some hets were made. Both the pet shop and the trader for the snake wen't out of business. Have no idea whatever happened to that snake and its offspring. IF the owner of the pet store was telling the truth about it just being brought in then I can verify it was an alb Eastern king. Loganville Georgia is no where near any other subspecies of kings. It is 1 hour east of Atlanta, Georgia.

an additional post
by ~ HDEAN

I have to admit I had never seen that range map before. Not into range maps or localitys. I assumed all were Easterns around Gwinnett County since all I ever saw were classic Eastern kings as far as looks. The alb in question I saw was a very skinny 2 1/2 to 3 foot snake that was very wild caught looking as far as body weight and girth except it was a little skinny. It appeared very Eastern in appearance but as we know that isn't a full adult size and it could have changed some as it grew. The person who ended up getting it from the pet store was a wholesaler with an actual business in a warehouse that also sold fish in Atlanta if that helps. I won't say his name since I never say him trade for it or saw it after the pet shop had it and what they did or didn't do as far as a trade is hearsay
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

DMong Jan 17, 2011 12:45 PM

In fact I know of 3 pure Albino Eastern Kingsnakes in the past.

1st was a WC from New Jersey. Bob Fengya (name from the past huh) was working part time at a pet store and received a call from a Dad stating his son had caught a snake in a burn/trash pile behind their home. He stated they couldn't get it to eat and was hoping that if they brought it to the store they may give him some kind of a credit towards a "python" or something. They told him to bring it in and they would do something for him. When they brought it in, Bob said he saw the kid walking towards him with one of the large pickle jars and in it he could see a "white" snake. Bob recognized it as an Eastern King and purchased it from teh kid. Not sure what the amount was but I remember it was enough for the kid to get a ball python and set up. When Bob purchased the snake it was approximately 14"-18" long from what I remember. It was also a female. The kid had had only had it for a few weeks. Bob raised it to breeding size and placed it with a male. In a bad stroke of luck, or call it what you want, he fell asleep on the couch and when he woke, the male had killed the female and was comsumming her. End of that line. I think this was along the mid 80's.

The 2nd amel I know of was a wc amel male. It was caught in Kernersville, Georgia I think. Either way it was just off I-85 on highway 106. It was caught coming out of a Cudzoo ravine. The male was taken to Doug Moody (originator of the albino Nelsons Milk) in POwder Spring, SC. I can't remember the size but either way, he bred it to one female. Same thing, she killed the male but the breeding did take and she produced some "hets" Doug sold a pair to someone who I can't remember but never told them they were possibly het amel. The others were given/sold to Randy Knight. I think that is the name, per Doug, it was the guy who used to put on the every 6 week show in Columbia, SC. This is where my memory is a little faded but I think Doug said Randy never did anything with the project, some babies were sold to different places but none were sold as pairs and the line was never reproduced to my knowledge. This is from probably the late 80's early 90's.

Snake 3 was a WC that belonged to the Zoo Atlanta collection. A lady called the Zoo and said she had a yellow snake in her garage and asked them to come and get it. She was in a rural area outside of Atlanta and they sent 2 guys out. The pulled a washer and dryer out of the wall in the garage and tada there was an Albino Eastern King. It was placed in the collection. It was a hatchling. They raised her and she was bred several times. Babies were always sent or traded to other institutions but non made it to private hands. I contacted Howard Hunt several times trying to purchase some since I knew they were a pure animal (the female adult was stunning, great looking snake). I offered as much as $500.00 for a pair of hets or $350.00 for a het male and he refused every time. The adult finally persished a few years ago. So, that line is out there but good luck getting your hands on any from it.

I heard rumors of an albino black kingsnake coming out of Tennesee or North
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

mikefedzen Jan 17, 2011 12:54 PM

Sucks that the albinos from those last 3 stories didnt contribute to the hobby. There's gotta be more albinos out there somewhere lol.
-----
Mike
KingPin Reptiles
www.kingpinreptiles.com

DMong Jan 17, 2011 01:07 PM

Yep!,...somewhere. But even after they might be discovered somewhere, and 100% genuinely pure L.g.g., it takes people with enough common sense to KEEP them pure. Too many in this hobby that will throw any ol' silly crap together to simply make "babies".

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

foxturtle Jan 17, 2011 03:52 PM

In Hubbs' book it is mentioned Scott Quint of Uwharrie Reptiles had an albino Eastern Montgomery County, NC. Apparently he sold the albino but retained some hets. This line could still be around...

foxturtle Jan 17, 2011 04:00 PM

...

DMong Jan 17, 2011 04:32 PM

Yes, that one too..LOL!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Tony D Jan 18, 2011 07:59 AM

I would like to personnally congratulate jeff for making this kingsnake's most confusing threads of all time.
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

DMong Jan 18, 2011 11:32 AM

HAHAA!,....no doubt Tony!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

foxturtle Jan 16, 2011 11:48 PM

While it is "common knowledge" that there no Eastern kings in Tennessee, I've seen several from the Chattanooga area and eastward that appeared to be Eastern/Black intergrades, or pure looking Easterns. There were pictures in Blaney's getula description from the 1970s of kings from Polk County, TN (SE corner) that were labeled as Nigra, but looked like pure Getula. The kings in that region are probably just poorly understood.

Oh, and there are speckled kings in Western TN

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