Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is a stupid question, but I just wanna see what others think.

If you put a Het Pied with a 50% Possible Het Pied, will the resulting babies be 50% Possible het Pieds?

My pea brain is telling me, NO. I put it the Advanced Genectics Wizard calculator and it looks at me like I'm a retard, keeps saying GO BACK.
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Pat Higdon - Higdons Herps, Tuttle, Oklahoma USA
Oklahoma City Herpetological Society Member
4 dumerils boas, 1 bci boa, 2 rosy boas, 3 burmese pythons, 1 reticulated python, 2 ball pythons, 1 borneo python, 10 bearded dragons, 9 leopard geckos, 3 african fat-tail geckos & 1 sulcata tortoise

Sure they will! And if your 50% adult is indeed het, 25% of your offspring will be the desired trait! Of course this will all be predicated on how many eggs you get! If you get 3, you probably can't make a determination, unless of course, you hit on the odds!

Yep, that's right. If you hatch out all normals they would be 50% hets. If you get lucky and hatch a pied then the normal siblings would become 66% hets.

I hope it works for you!

John

If you breed a Het Pied (I am assuming this would be a 100% Het) to a 50% Het Pied, the 50% only means that you have a 50% chance that this particular normal looking snake is actually a Het Pied. Assuming that IT IS a Het, you could get babies that all look normal, and in that case they would be 50% Het Pied (the chances of them being either normal or Het is 50%)but they might in fact all be normal. If that 50% Het is actually a normal, all the babies will also look normal and will be 50% Het Pieds.

On the other hand, you could get lucky and get at least one visual pied. In that case the normal looking babies would be 66% Het Pieds (meaning that there is a 66% chance that they are Hets, but in fact they could all be normals). If you get REALLY lucky you could get all the babies to be visual pieds. It all a matter of probabilities.

Based on probabilities, 25% of the offspring of a Het Pied x Het Pied would be 25% Pieds, 25% normals, and 50% Het Pieds, but that doesn't mean that in every case you would hit the jackpot and get these percentages.
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Sed et serpens erat callidior cunctis animantibus terrae quae fecerat Dominus Deus...

To add to what was said above; all normal offspring of a het to a het would be considered 66% hets.

You're correct Leo! I think in this case, you have to think more along the lines of the 50% het adult is either het for pied or it isn't, rather than getting all caught up in the numbers!

Here is why I ask, saw these on a BP breeders website the other day, and I have been thinking about it ever since.

50% Possible Het Pied X 100% Het Pied = 4 Normal looking babies.

Seller had them advertised as 50% Het Pieds. I finally got Genetics Wizard to give the same answer you guys are givin me.

As a breeder/seller I would have a very hard time selling these babies as 50% Possible het Pieds, to me they would just be Normals. And I would only give the 50% Het parent on more try, but would breed it to a Pied, too see if it is in fact a Het Pied. If no Pieds come the resulting clutch of eggs, that particular Poss Het would be sold as a Normal as well. I have ZERO faith in Possible Het anythings.
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Pat Higdon - Higdons Herps, Tuttle, Oklahoma USA
Oklahoma City Herpetological Society Member
4 dumerils boas, 1 bci boa, 2 rosy boas, 3 burmese pythons, 1 reticulated python, 2 ball pythons, 1 borneo python, 10 bearded dragons, 9 leopard geckos, 3 african fat-tail geckos & 1 sulcata tortoise

Thet ARE 50% hets! Even if you breed a 100% het to a normal, the offspring would be 50% hets!

I know thats what the "genetic odds" would be...

But me personally.. Its either 100% Het or its a Normal. I do not believe in "possible hets" anymore, more often than not, they turn out to be a bad investment.

Anything that is a "possible het" is just an over priced normal in my book.
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Pat Higdon - Higdons Herps, Tuttle, Oklahoma USA
Oklahoma City Herpetological Society Member
4 dumerils boas, 1 bci boa, 2 rosy boas, 3 burmese pythons, 1 reticulated python, 2 ball pythons, 1 borneo python, 10 bearded dragons, 9 leopard geckos, 3 african fat-tail geckos & 1 sulcata tortoise

I've done very well with poss. het girls. For example, I purchased 0.10 50% poss. het lavender albino a few years back. I have proved 7 out of 7 so far...not a bad investment. Obviously this isn't a typical example; however, it's not a bad way to get into an expensive project.

I agree...I have done very well with possible hets. It's just a numbers game. If you buy enough animals to put the odds back in your favor you stand a good chance of getting at least one het at a bargain price. I usually buy 3 which gives an 88% chance of getting at least one. Several times I've hit on all three.

John

4 is a very small number to draw conclusions on I've gotten 8 normals from codom x normal and no visual our of 6 eggs from homo x proven het. Odds suck sometimes.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

nihil facimus sed id bene facimus

> 50% Possible Het Pied X 100% Het Pied = 4 Normal looking babies.

That is much too small a sample. I'd get 17 eggs before giving up. That number of babies with no pieds gives a 99% probability that the possible het pied is actually a normal.

> As a breeder/seller I would have a very hard time selling these babies as 50% Possible het Pieds, to me they would just be Normals.

Your choice.

>And I would only give the 50% Het parent on more try, but would breed it to a Pied, too see if it is in fact a Het Pied. If no Pieds come the resulting clutch of eggs, that particular Poss Het would be sold as a Normal as well.

The 50% probability het pied x pied mating would have to have at least 7 normal-looking babies and no pieds before I'd give up. That gives a 99% probability that the possible het pied is actually a normal.

>I have ZERO faith in Possible Het anythings.

That's good, if it keep you out of the casinos.

I used to help maintain a stock of mice with the jaundice mutant gene, which was recessive to the normal alternate gene. Heterozygotes looked normal, and homozygous jaundice mice were a golden color when born and died within a day or two. The only way to keep the stock going was to mate heterozygous mouse to heterozygous mouse. And all the babies from het x het matings were 66% probability hets. We got enough proven hets to keep the stock going, so I do have faith in possible hets. I just don't expect Lady Luck to bless every roll of the genetic dice.

Paul Hollander

The percentages of phenotypes and genotypes in any crosses are based on probabilities. When the sample is small (like for example, four eggs) the chances of getting all possible combinations is very small. The larger the sample the more accurate the results. Probabilities are based on an infinite number of events.

It's like when you flip a coin. According to probabilities, 50% of the time you will get heads and 50% tails, but everybody knows it doesn't happen like that all the time. The more times you actually flip the coin, the closer you get to having an equal number of tails and heads...
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Sed et serpens erat callidior cunctis animantibus terrae quae fecerat Dominus Deus...

I like casinos and generally do fair in them.

I just don't like taking chances on an animal that looks normal with a 50% shot at carrying the genes for a particular morph. If I am goin to invest money in hets they will be 100% hets.
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Pat Higdon - Higdons Herps, Tuttle, Oklahoma USA
Oklahoma City Herpetological Society Member
4 dumerils boas, 1 bci boa, 2 rosy boas, 3 burmese pythons, 1 reticulated python, 2 ball pythons, 1 borneo python, 10 bearded dragons, 9 leopard geckos, 3 african fat-tail geckos & 1 sulcata tortoise

last year from a visual pied male to a 100% het pied female, i received 9 eggs. only one visual pied came of this breeding - the other 8 were 100% hets. it happens.

i can think of many clutches where i've bred 100% het males to possible het females and have done far far better. i just sold someone 12 50% het females for next to nothing. odds say 6 of those will wind up being true 100% hets. in the long run, i believe he'll do far better than someone who buys a few 100% hets instead.