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I noticed that my baby male Eastern Black King's water dish was dry and so upon going to fill it, also noticed that my male was dead and lying on top of the substrate... probably died from thirst--- I love my Eastern Blacks and they are hard to find... and I hate having a snake of mine die because of something I Neglected to do that is so basic and so simple!!! I feel like a real jerk that an animal died directly because of me... but so things go. SO MAKE SURE THAT YOUR SNAKE'S WATER DISHES ARE ALWAYS FILLED AND CLEAN AND DON'T DO WHAT I DID.
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BULLS: Pr normal (KS&TX), Pr Northern (M Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada & F Minn), Pr Kankakee Co, Ill, CORNS: Pr Okeetee, SC, FOXES: Pr Western, KINGS: F Black Eastern (L.g.nigra) Todd Co. KY, Pr. NC Eastern Chains (M from Union Co. & F from Mecklenburg Co.), Pr."Goini", Franklin Co. Fla, Pr. Costal Banded Cal (M Hypo & F normal) Pr Speckled, Harris Co. TX, MILKS: F Eastern, PINES: Pr Louisiana (pure descendants of Terry Vandeventer stock), Pr Southern (F light phase & M- Aiken, SC), PYTHONS: Pr normal Ball, RATS: Pr Black, Henderson Co. NC, Pr Black (M White Side & F Leucistic), F Western Green,(Mt. Hopkins, Cochise Co. AZ), OTHERS: 10 Tarantulas, 155 Orchid plants, 30 assorted tropical plants and African violets, 3 Freshwater Planted Aquariums with West African Dwarf Cichlids and 2 condo-porch gardens with Bonsai, Roses and more.

Aww...that is a sad thing. Any endeavors we undertake, snafus are bound to happen. It is highly unlikely you will ever repeat this mistake. A hard lesson indeed.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Kept snakes for decades; not sure I've ever had one die from thirst. Just how long did this little guy go without water? Sorry about your loss.

"Just how long did this little guy go without water?"

Exactly,....for the water to go down to the bottom, then get absolutely bone-dry, then for the snake to dehydrate to the point of dying after that, it had to have been at LEAST several weeks!

It should have never happened...period!, and I cannot understand it not being at least looked in on in that long amount of time either.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

well he was not even a yearling, the cage was warm, and it was about over a week that the water bowl was dry
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BULLS: Pr normal (KS&TX), Pr Northern (M Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada & F Minn), Pr Kankakee Co, Ill, CORNS: Pr Okeetee, SC, FOXES: Pr Western, KINGS: F Black Eastern (L.g.nigra) Todd Co. KY, Pr. NC Eastern Chains (M from Union Co. & F from Mecklenburg Co.), Pr."Goini", Franklin Co. Fla, Pr. Costal Banded Cal (M Hypo & F normal) Pr Speckled, Harris Co. TX, MILKS: F Eastern, PINES: Pr Louisiana (pure descendants of Terry Vandeventer stock), Pr Southern (F light phase & M- Aiken, SC), PYTHONS: Pr normal Ball, RATS: Pr Black, Henderson Co. NC, Pr Black (M White Side & F Leucistic), F Western Green,(Mt. Hopkins, Cochise Co. AZ), OTHERS: 10 Tarantulas, 155 Orchid plants, 30 assorted tropical plants and African violets, 3 Freshwater Planted Aquariums with West African Dwarf Cichlids and 2 condo-porch gardens with Bonsai, Roses and more.

Sorry about the loss. Two thoughts:
1) you say the cage was "warm" and from your timeline the water evaporated awfully quickly. Any chance that cage/container has some anomaly with the heat source and overheated, leading to water drying up quickly and also contributing to the snake's death? I'd check.
2) your experience may benefit others and save other snakes. In that spirit, let me put in a good word for "systems": once a week, for ex, check EVERY cage, even the ones you're sure are fine. 99% will be quick look-sees, but 1% will run across circumstances whose correction can be life-saving.

I fully agree there Terry. For example,...a water bowl that has been defecated in is just as bad(if not worse) than no water at ALL!. A tipped-over bowl ain't so good either..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

well he was not even a yearling, the cage was warm, and it was about over a week that the water bowl was dry

Warmth had nothing to do with it except dry out the bowl. A underheat source is the best way. Do not use overhead heat lamp or lightbulb for kings or any colubrid for that matter. ..adults or younbg colubrid!!..
Display tanks are notorious for dehydrated snakes. A heat pad will allow the snake to choose its proper temps and thermoregulate. Just make sure to place the water bowl on the cool side. .

Neonate kingsnakes dehydrate VERY fast. Even a couple days w/o water can dehydrate them to the point of death. Best thing is to offer neonates a humid cage or small container. A water bowl alone is not enough!

Snakes always search for the perfect temp and humidity. That is what they do. In captivity most keepers neglect the fact they need a humid area and think a water bowl is all they need. Sometimes a little spilled water into tyhe substrate helps this situation w/o the keeper knowing it..

Also....after shipping it is advisable to hydrate the snakes as soon as removing from packaging. Small kings get very dehydrated after shipping. Or what is even worse is purchasing neonates from TRADE SHOWS (aka reptle expos/shows etc..). There they go w/o water for days before, during and AFTER the show weekend. Most people carry them in the deli cup and they get tortured even longer with a long drive before offering water. PLEASE put some water in their deli cups right after purchase and before getting them home. A wet paper towel will help as well. You can just get that from any public bathroom or water fountain.

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www.Bluerosy.com

I could NOT agree more with that bud!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I always soak my hatchlings the night before a show. It doesn't hurt to take a spray bottle along either.
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

It doesn't hurt to take a spray bottle along either.

That is what I use at shows. i spray them down the night before the show. But during the show they need to be dry and asthetically appealing. Damp delis are a turn off to customers.

What is worse is after someone purchases a snake i sometimes offer to spray down snakes (especially on sunday after the snake has been under the lights and at the show for 3 days0 for the customer. But 90% of the time the buyer refuses and says they will wait until they get home.

If they only knew what stress this causes the snake.

Another peave of mine at shows (and one that customers give me a confused look) is to offer to stuff the deli cup with shavings or paper towels so that the snake is not bouncing around. But customers also refuse that as they want to show off the snake. They often toss the empty deli into a shopping bag full of other deli cup snakes (also loose in the cup). I see them walking around like this until the show ends. God knows what other stresses they put their snakes through afterwards. i can imagine them handling the snakes at night and having kids play with the deydrated and shaken babies.

I don't see these problems with adult snakes as they don't dehydrate as fast and they are usually in a cloth bag or stuffed tight into a container of some sort. Adults just don't dehydrate that fas. But neonates or young colubrids do. I think Floridnana dry out especially faster than other colubrids.
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www.Bluerosy.com

When I go to shows or someone's home to buy snakes I always take along a few feeding jars full of moist sphagnum moss. When I get out to the the car I right away put the snakes in the moss jars. I'd bring my jars into the show but am not sure the show staff would approve.

Anyway, thank you for making such a good point about hydration and deli cups!
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Good stuff guys. Also I’d say there is something of a difference between hydration or humidity and thirst. A snake that has a bowl of moist sphagnum to crawl in can go for a long time without drinking. Maybe even go without drinking. But a snake that gets dehydrated is a goner. Aspen or dry pine shavings, newspaper and dry paper towels in a bone dry cage, even with a small water bowl is making your snake live in an unnatural dehumidifier. Especially indoor air in winter, sometimes gets very dry. It’s a sure killer to little kingsnakes.

I have to agree with everyone here too... Even here in FL my water bowls in the summer and especially this winter would be dry after 3-5 days and I use the larger crock bowls for adults and the medium ones for yearlings and 1lb deli cups for hatchlings and I have seen the water bowls evaporate by half in 3 days here this winter. I always have a hide box with moist spagnum and I would say 80% of the time my snakes are in it.

With heat in the winter and A/C in the summer I can picture the snakes dying after a week especially the hatchlings. Nice tip Rainer I will be bringing deli cups with moss or paper towels in it the next show I go to..
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Jimmy Tintle

Out here it is even drier, I do waters every day. I at least add a little in each one. And as for the humid hides, they are working great. I am thinking once a week changing out the cypress in the hides.
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Tom S
1.1 Flame Lampropeltis getla Floridana
1.0 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Axanthic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis
1.0 Anerythristic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis

thats awful... what a dumb mistake.

I change/ refill my snake's water every time they eat. for baby kings, thats twice a week. plus i'm always in my snake room just checking out everything and keep a gallon of water in there to do quick refills if i see a low bowl.

i really don't see how you could go so long without checking on/ feeding/ looking at your snake.

oh well, i guess you've learned your lesson and will make sure it never happens again.

Learn from this. I won't beat you up for it (you probably already have), but this is why you spot check daily or every other day. It prevents things like this from happening.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

I put this post up to get others not to do what I did and I'm glad it got discussion. I feel its just as important to discuss mistakes for other keepers benifit as it is to discuss successes. I agree, the cage was too dry, and baby kings need some moisture - a small container with damp spaghnum moss would have been good and I will add them in future. i have an undertank heater under the container. Babies have to be watched, and dirty deficated water is just as bad as no water your right.
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BULLS: Pr normal (KS&TX), Pr Northern (M Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada & F Minn), Pr Kankakee Co, Ill, CORNS: Pr Okeetee, SC, FOXES: Pr Western, KINGS: F Black Eastern (L.g.nigra) Todd Co. KY, Pr. NC Eastern Chains (M from Union Co. & F from Mecklenburg Co.), Pr."Goini", Franklin Co. Fla, Pr. Costal Banded Cal (M Hypo & F normal) Pr Speckled, Harris Co. TX, MILKS: F Eastern, PINES: Pr Louisiana (pure descendants of Terry Vandeventer stock), Pr Southern (F light phase & M- Aiken, SC), PYTHONS: Pr normal Ball, RATS: Pr Black, Henderson Co. NC, Pr Black (M White Side & F Leucistic), F Western Green,(Mt. Hopkins, Cochise Co. AZ), OTHERS: 10 Tarantulas, 155 Orchid plants, 30 assorted tropical plants and African violets, 3 Freshwater Planted Aquariums with West African Dwarf Cichlids and 2 condo-porch gardens with Bonsai, Roses and more.

I feel its just as important to discuss mistakes for other keepers benifit as it is to discuss successes

Absolutly!

Just remeber the smaller ones need to have the water avaliable and a smaller unit (shoebox or smaller) is best. large cages like 15-20 gallons a neonate an get lost and the requirmenst not met.

And above all don't use a overhead heat source like a lightbulb on any kingsnake/ratsnake/ milksnake or pit. It really dehydrates them even if they are adults or sub adults.

I know keepers who provide units with moisture layers (like a drawer unit) and don't even need to offer water. their snakes don't even take a drink because they get the moisture from the environment.

Since snakes like kings are fossorial most of their lives, they get plenty of moisture and move about choosing the best humiddity locations (something we can't offer in a box) so we trry the best we can to offer as many choices of heat gradients and moisture as possible. that is why I think a water bowl and heat bulb is the worst method. A moist hide or even spilled water dishes can provide the moisture. Also keep in mind units with open perforated/ventilated tops has zero buildup of humidity. That is why I prefer drawer units where moisture build up and cannot escape. This is especially true for neonate colubrids.

Also keep in mind that not all species of snakes do well in humid enclosers. Rosy boas for example need an open ventilated top, because mositure kills them.

[

Goini x Florida king hypo

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www.Bluerosy.com

While I agree with almost everything that has been said in the posts above, I have to say that there is nothing wrong with using overhead heat if you do it properly. In fact it is one of my favorite methods. Heat from light is very natural to these snakes. Its not the light thats the problem. Its the screen top and the lack of humidity. If you are using a typical fish tank/screen/heat lamp set up you just need to be more cognizant of humidity. A humidity chamber and/or regular spraying is a must on these tanks in addition to a water bowl. A deep substrate of something that can get wet (cypress) is the easiest way to do this.

Also FYI...

I am one of those people who keep hatchlings without water bowls. I use covered tubs and I spray them down regularly. Moisture condenses on the cool side and they drink droplets, they also conserve water because the entire tub is fairly humid. This is fairly natural. Most desert sakes I find in the wild (these are cal kings) are not near easily accessible permanent water sources. They conserve water by living in humid microhabitats. Note, if the substrate is WET you have over done it!

In fact, I have often wondered if the dry cage with a clean water bowl does not still leave us with dehydrated snakes. Snakes are programed to conserve water, not to drink a ton. I think one of the best preventive medicine for just about any snake that is often overlooked is a humidity gradient.

Also, in my experience unless this snake was sick, thin, underfed, or severely overheated, it would have taken much longer than a week to die of dehydration alone. So either you forgot about the water for a little longer than you want to admit, or maybe you should be looking at other aspects of your husbandry as well.

Also, in my experience unless this snake was sick, thin, underfed, or severely overheated, it would have taken much longer than a week to die of dehydration alone. So either you forgot about the water for a little longer than you want to admit, or maybe you should be looking at other aspects of your husbandry as well

I don't know about eastern black kings like the OP had.. but neonate Florida kings dry out particulary fast. Faster than other colubrids.

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www.Bluerosy.com

It was late... I thought we were talking about a mexican black king. Maybe what I said don't apply to FL/black/easterns. Never kept one.

So do you think that if you took a fat healthy yearling floridana in one of your set ups, fed it, and removed the water bowl, that it would be dead in 7 days?

As far as I am concerned, not feeding for the week compounded the problem too. Most terrestrial herps get a lot of their water from their food. I would be feeding a yearling more than every 7 days. Again I don't know about eastern kings, but I know a cal king can survive for weeks (maybe longer) in a completely dry environment if you feed it enough.

So do you think that if you took a fat healthy yearling floridana in one of your set ups, fed it, and removed the water bowl, that it would be dead in 7 days?

A fat yearling Florida king in my collection would be a breeding size adult.

So no. An adult would not be dead in 7 days. But the Op never said how big his king was. I do know that neonates dehydrate in as little as 3 days.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I do know that neonates dehydrate in as little as 3 days.
With that in mind, next time I feed my baby pyros in their feeding jars I will lay a wet paper towel down in the bottom of the jar first, as sometimes I leave them overnight in the jars. Not that 24 hours of no water would be fatal, but it might be very uncomfortable.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

I don't think mountain kings dehdyrate as fast as Floridana. I used to keep sevral over the years and they seem to get along just fine w/o water. ..at least for short periods.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I guess that makes sense as they're adapted to a more xeric climate.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

"A fat yearling Florida king in my collection would be a breeding size adult"

Haha. My point exactly! A yearling snake should not have been small and delicate enough to die without water for a week.

Baby snakes need water-loss-prevention. Water bowls are not always the most effective way to do that, but better than nothing. A humid hide and enough food will account for water intake and water loss prevention. So does a cool area where the heat isn't drying everything out.

Heat pads dehydrate as much as anything. Heat pads dehydrate substrate from below. Lights dehydrate from above. Both dehydrate. And baby snakes have thin skin.

Wild baby snakes do not crawl around seeking standing water to hydrate themselves unless conditions are that severe. They more often use soil and find areas where they can conserve water, even while warming up.
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Mark

Wild baby snakes do not crawl around seeking standing water to hydrate themselves unless conditions are that severe. They more often use soil and find areas where they can conserve water, even while warming up

Agre.

See my post above your right before you posted this!

Water bowls are NOT the best way to hydrate your snakes!

But I sorta disagree with the heat pad anology. because a light source will dry everything out. But a hot spot on a none ventilated (ENCLOSED) unit just increases humidity. Not dry it out.

of course if a person uses a tank with high sides and ventilated top, then yes, the heat pad will dry everything out as well.

I don't even use holes in my tupperware containers much anymore. The snake gets plenty of air from the small opening between the shelve top for air. Heck even with no air they can live in a enclsed (lid) container like a shoebox or bigger for an indefinte period..at least long enough for water checks and feeding. These snakes live in holes in the ground. So close quarters and venitaltion are not a high priority.- They are not like mice or hamsters.

neither do the get clausterphobic either, LOL!

Pearl snow Florida king (axanthic x lavender albino homozygot)

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www.Bluerosy.com

The waterbowl nested in a plant saucer of sphagnum moss. When filling the bowl add a bit of water to the moss. This also makes a cool hide for little snakes. For bigger snakes use an aluminum cake pan. My bulls love to slop the water all round but the pan keeps the moisture from getting into the substrate and making a mess.

Big snakes like to coil up under the bowl, too.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

This is a fantastic post, actually. Love the two bowl stack, can’t believe I had not thought of that before. I have been keeping two bowls and never though of combining them like that. That would really slow down the moist substrate from drying out too fast too. I could see where the snakes would really like that.

One thing I have been doing is trying to keep live plants in my cages, which is almost impossible in a sweater box type rack set up. I have a couple of snakes in snap lock lid type containers that do get enough light to keep some small plants alive that are grown in water. I use a few glass pebble things for substrate and these philodendron (they grow like weeds all over around where I live) that will root and grow in just a small baby food jar. They can grow in very low light too. It does provide humidity insurance and maybe just a tiny bit of some fresh air. Even a very small kingsnake would probably destroy this in about two minutes, but you could easily fashion a base that wouldn’t be easily tipped over. (baby naja naja in this set up, they don’t seem so destructive- to cage accessories)

That's a clever idea with the philodendron. I have been wanting to put a live plant in my snake tanks but didn't know what to use that would actually thrive with low light. I could anchor its water vessel in place with granite rocks (which grow wild all around my place! LOL!)
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

This has been some really good discussion, and while Im still bummed about the lose of my snake, my post has gotten some really positive discussion going on... and thats what this forum is all about. Now I have to find another male Eastern Black King darn it!
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BULLS: Pr normal (KS&TX), Pr Northern (M Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada & F Minn), Pr Kankakee Co, Ill, CORNS: Pr Okeetee, SC, FOXES: Pr Western, KINGS: F Black Eastern (L.g.nigra) Todd Co. KY, Pr. NC Eastern Chains (M from Union Co. & F from Mecklenburg Co.), Pr."Goini", Franklin Co. Fla, Pr. Costal Banded Cal (M Hypo & F normal) Pr Speckled, Harris Co. TX, MILKS: F Eastern, PINES: Pr Louisiana (pure descendants of Terry Vandeventer stock), Pr Southern (F light phase & M- Aiken, SC), PYTHONS: Pr normal Ball, RATS: Pr Black, Henderson Co. NC, Pr Black (M White Side & F Leucistic), F Western Green,(Mt. Hopkins, Cochise Co. AZ), OTHERS: 10 Tarantulas, 155 Orchid plants, 30 assorted tropical plants and African violets, 3 Freshwater Planted Aquariums with West African Dwarf Cichlids and 2 condo-porch gardens with Bonsai, Roses and more.

You’ll never know, but your post may have saved the lives of other little snakes out there. I think it’s really important to share experiences with other keepers you know locally and in these forums for people that don’t really have anybody near by. This is how we learn, and even the most experienced can learn or be reminded of something they were too busy to remember. It’s all good.

The image that somehow disappeared.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire