Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a pretty young water monitor and he just got over a tiny bout of mouth rot(we caught it super early and it cleared up really quickly) but now that he's over it he's not interested in crickets or roaches anymore. He likes earthworms and fuzzys but he doesn't even bat an eye at the crickets or the roaches and he used to love them. He's still young so I want his diet to be mostly insects as that's what's best for him but I want to vary his diet as much as I can and I'm having trouble thinking of some more foods that might interest him and also be healthy. I bought some ground turkey for him, but I only do meat 2 days a week. Monday and Tuesday, he eats insects. Wednesday I give him 2 fuzzys, thursday and friday are bugs and saturday I offer ground turkey (which he doesn't like that much). Sunday he doesn't eat. For the last week, the insects he's eatten have only been earthworms and I was just wondering if anyone has some suggestions of other insects or healthy meats I can offer him.

Other than being picky, he's doing very well. I have him in a large 2/5 cage on a mixture of cyrpess mulch and coconut fibers. He has plenty of hides, a cave, a large piece of driftwood he climbs on and a big swimming pool. He has a 150 watt basking bulb and I get the temps up to 115-120 in the hotspot and it gets to about 75 on the cool side of the cage. He's becoming really tame and he's much calmer. He's about 15 and a half inches long but most of that's tail.

I'd be happy if anyone had some ideas on more foods or any suggestions on getting him to eat the crickets and roaches or getting him to eat the ground turkey. Also, he isn't interested in food while he's in the cage. If I put him in the bathtub, he eats like a pig though. Any ideas on that?

Hi, I have a young V.salvator, too, I feed freshwater fish (you can try goldfish), I use trout, cut into small chunks, dusted with a multi vitamin/mineral mix (I don`t offer supplementary D3 as I use the "Megaray" UVB emmiting lamps). You can try quail eggs (fertilized), you can scramble or boil them first, shrimps/prawns etc are good too, if the monitor will take them.
I suggest raising the basking temp to between 120 to 130f, that allows the animal to digest the foods efficiently, so long as there are cooler areas to retreat to, it`s fine; the monitor will decide which temps it needs. My ambient temps range from approx 95f warm side, down to around 80f cool end. Night temps, no lower than 72f. Can you tell me what type of heat/light bulbs you`re using?
If he/she is eating earthworms, along with other whole prey items, I don`t think you need to worry, but pinky mice offer very little nutrition to these animals, much better to cut up a (f/t) fuzzie mouse/rat pup, please do NOT feed live rodents!
You mention a 2/5 tank size, is that 5 feet x 2 ft.? I believe it`s better to give them the largest enclosure from the beginning, some people think that it will stress them, that`s quite ridiculous, how big is the wild?! There`s no danger of predation in captivity, they WILL find the heat, cool, light and dark, they may need to "work" a little harder to catch some of the insects, but that`s not a bad thing, excercise is GOOD for them!! My onitor was 15 inches when I gor him 7 months ago, he`s now slightly under 26inches, I`m pleased with that, it isn`t a "race" to see how fast you cann get them to grow in the shortest possible time, "powerfeeding" leads to obesity, which leads to disease, and probably a much shorter lifespan! (Just my personal opinion)...

I'm not sure the brand of bulb, but it's the kind that gives out uvb and heat. Yes, it's 2 feet by 5 feet and a bigger cage is in the making. I tried minnows in his water but I don't think that he gets that they're food. Food that isn't moving doesn't interest him. Do you have any suggestions to how I can teach him to eat the trout or ground turkey? He does eat fuzzys, and he eats them whole. I do f/t and just buy a big bag of them. To get them to eat them I throw one in his mouth and when he bites down and realizes it's food he gobbles them up. Is there a place I can but fertilized quail eggs? What about chicken eggs?

Thanks for your help

Hi again, first, you mention minnows in the water, they should be pre-killed, although he/she might catch a couple, they WILL take dead items, (that`s why they have such fantastic chemosensory abilities!
I buy quail eggs on "ebay". I`m living in England just now (from Australia, originally), so I think you should be able to do that in the States, too? Just type into the Ebay search box; "quail eggs", they`re quite cheap (at least, over here). If you can buy a trout, cut it along the length (lay it on it`s side, so you can cut into strips along the body), even small pieces are fine, but dust with a multi vitamin/mineral mix 2 or 3 times per week.
Is the heat/light you`re using a tube or a bulb? If a fluorescent tube, they are VERY weak compared to natural sunlight, I use the "Megaray" lamps (heat and light), and as close to natural sunlight in the UVB wavelength (The best in the world, at this time, in my opinion), if you use that type, do NOT offer suplementary D3.
As I mentioned in my first reply, you need to raise the ambient (air) temps, mine are between approx 80f cool side, up to approx 95f warm end, basking spot between 120 to 130f, if it`s too low, they won`t digest the foods properly, or be that interested in eating. Can you show a few pics or a video of the monitor and the set-up?
If you look on youtube under: ornatusvaranid you can see a few very short vids of my V. salvator, also, a vid of my Ornate monitor that died a fewmonths ago from a tumour in his throat, I`d had him almost 14 years, he was 225 cm and 21 kilos (7.5 feet and approx 48 lbs). the vid title is: "Ornate monitor opening the door" or: "Stefan`s ornate monitor"
Let me know what you think...

I raised the ambient temps and my hotspot temps and i wathced your vids. Your setup is super nice. How big is it? I love all the climbing areas. It's a bulb, not flourecent. he's still more interested in the worms but i'm going to try the trout and quail eggs, i found them on ebay. are the ones i want the quail hatching eggs? i assume that means fertilized. Your ornate monitor was beautiful, I'm sorry for your loss.

Thanks for the kind words, it was a great shock when they found the tumour, he came round from the anaesthetic, but died shortly after, he was very weak at that stage. I donated his body to a museum, they`ve preserved it, and taken some muscle tissue, so DNA can be extracted in the future for research purposes, I thought that was better than just burying him, it was a real priveledge to keep him all those years, he really was "dog tame", and a member of the family...
My tank measures 12ft x 5 ft x 5 ft, but he will have a room when he outgrows this in a few years. Yes, the "hatching quail eggs" means they are fertile, I might at some stage buy an incubator and hatch a few, they are a good size for feeding to young monitors.
I`m pleased you`ve raised the temps, hopefully, you`ll notice a difference in the monitor over the next few days.

Stefan,Im sorry to here about your lose.I know how much it sucks to louse your animals.I had a power failure a little over a month ago,and lost everything.Good luck with your new water

Greg
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1.1 Varanus Rudicollis
2.0.3 Varanus jobiesis
0.0.1 Ornate box turtle
0.1 Varanus Salvidorii
0.0.2 Varanus Salvator

Hi Greg, yes, cancer is a horrible disease, it can get any of us at at time, but I had almost 14 great years with him, thanks for your comments.
I`m really sorry to hear about your animals, I`m sure you`ll get the collection going again, I know you`re as passionate about these animals as I am, so when you do get some new ones, please put details up. Good luck!!
Stefan

Boy does this bother me, but the very best you can do is feed your salvator rodents and lots of them. If you do, it can grow full sized within a couple years.

If your conditions are good, waters will easily grow 4 inches a month, and be very very healthy. ON RODENTS.

Its odd that folks become all concerned over what they think is ideal, yet the animals perform better with not so ideal.

In nature, monitors consume different types of prey because they HAVE to. If given a choice, they will find and consume a GREAT prey item, until it runs out.

The upper pic is of the male, he was only suppose to get 4 or 5 feet, he grew to 5 1/2 feet in one year.

The second pic is of the pair breeding.

Both were fed only mice.

Hi, I`m not sure why it should "bother you" that some of us like to give our monitors a varied whole prey diet? Are you suggesting that mice/rats are a comlete meal, nothing else is needed?? I`m guessing you either breed or buy very large ammounts of those items, it`s very easy just to "toss" a few rodents in. Is there a "race" to get them to grow at the fastest possible rate? I (along with many others), like to take them along fairly slowly, I`ve seen all too often the results of "powerfeeding" these animals ( definitely NOT suggesting that`s what you`re advising); but so many newcomers see the fast growth in itself as a measure of health, whereas it`s just an indication of the ammount of food versus ammount of excercise, plus conditions in which they`re kept. So long as the animal`s growth is increasing at a regular rate, and they are kept in optimum conditions, that`s fine, in my book.
I DO know how extremely successful you`ve been at breeding these animals, (great job), but there`s more than one way to do it, as you say, as long as they`re long lived and healthy!

I am not suggesting anything, I am reporting superior results from a diet of wholely rodents. I am reporting that based on experience with many many species. When fed rodents gained superior growth rates and superior reproductive success and maintained very good longevity.

What you choose to feed your monitors is entirely your choice. I would never TELL you or others what to do. But I do feel reponsible to REPORT, actual results gained from the feeding of rodents, mice in my case.

Experience such as generation after generation, and with species after species.

So no, its not a suggestion, its a REPORT. Please consider the difference.

The babies below and their parents and their parents were raised on rodents. Thanks

How many mice would a water monitor eat in a week FR? around 60?

Hi, I said rodents diet. And that I used mice. I said that to be exact. Because that is what I normally use. I do so because I also have a mice facility, so they are free and available.

I have use rats as well. I also produce Soft furred rats which are highly perferred by reptiles(got me, they just to)

The answer is no, not sixty, much less. I am a fan of smaller meals more often. A couple of three large adult mice a day worked well for my cumingi, but they are not that large compared to a normal salvator.

Thats interesting you can feed more often, even daily, with monitors ...and get away with feeding less.

its funny but that whole concept of large meals is a very human thing.

Wild reptiles are capable of consuming large meals, but thats not what they normally do.

For instance if you take a snake, A four foot long snake only has about a five inch long stomach. The stomach engulfs the head of the rat, and as its digested, the food item keeps moving into the stomach. As the head is digested, the rest of the food item actually rots.

This goes for monitors, If they consume prey that fits INSIDE their stomach, its digested much faster and completely. So the animals has a constant flow of nutrients, not an intermittened one.

In nature, they do have the ability to consume large meals. But its not as efficent as consuming smaller meals.

The reality is, its most common that they consume medium to smaller sized prey items.

I was at a alligator farm once and I was suprised at how very little the alligators needed to eat to remain fat and healthy. Granted their temperatures are not as high as some of the sun worshipping reptiles like monitors.

They over crowded them and the hungry gators came to the front to eat the full ones stayed in the middle and the back.

I do not know what to say, other then that is a little backwards. Crocodilians, spend far more of their life out and in the sun then do monitors. For very simple reasons, Crocs have it safe.

They can cool down easily, they are the kings in the water, so its security for them. If they are basking and something approaches, in the water then go. So they have a life of water, sun, water sun, etc.

Monitors as a whole do not have those advantages. A very few species do, like mertens and salvators to a point.

So, sun loving, that would go to the crocs.

Also, reptiles do not have a set metabolism. They can adjust it to fit and control their energy needs. They can choose to make a little food go a long way and a lot of food go a short way. Just by raising and lowering their body temps. Which is what they do. Cheers

I was talking about alligators specifically but they do not consume as much food as some of the larger monitors. Since they are exposed to much colder temperatures.

Hmmmmmmmmm its not that your wrong, its that your making a statement, about a bunch of alligators in a concrete pond.

In most cases, gator or other crocs, can really lower their temps because they live in water. In fact, cool water is mandatory for crocs of the world. In many places I have been, they pick water sources that have depth in order to be able to lower their temps.

Let me use an example. in nothern Australia. Fresh water crocs live in semi permanent water courses. They pick certain areas, billibongs, because the ones they pick have cool water layers. At night they come out and will hunt the other billibongs that are shallower.

When In Oz, if you ask a Black fella, if theres crocs here. He does not look for a croc. he checks the water temps. If its cool, theres crocs there mate. And its fairly accurate.

I also worked in several alligator farms, hahahahahaha

The point is, the ones that cannot lots of food, lower their body temps so they do not need as much food.

This is exactly what varanids do. Thats why its so had to put one on a diet to lose weight. They will then pick cool temps and fight that tooth and claw.

My bet is, a forty pound alligator requires the same energy to function as a forty pound monitor. Particularly if your taking about water monitors which have the same ability to lower their temps.

But I do know what your saying. Thanks

Hi again, thanks for your reply, I wasn`t doubting your knowledge! I`ve seen a little of your work with these animals, all credit to you, I just believe a varied whole prey diet (inc mice/rats etc), is "better" in the sense that mice/rats don`t by themselves contain all the nutrients they may need. Can I ask if you offer some suplementation (vitamins/minerals) on occasion? Also, it looks like at least some of your monitors get some access to unfiltered natural sunlight, many of us (particularly here in Europe), don`t normally have that opportunity, so they`re kept indoors for most of their lives, which I think makes a difference.
I`m an Aussie living in the U.K just now, it`s quite different keeping them permanently indoors, compared to keeping them outdoors back home (at least in the warmer months)!

Hello, Sorry you lost your water, that many years is very good in captivity.

So lets get down to the reality of this situation.

A real problem with monitor husbandry is deciding what is poor/normal/and superior. That is, how to define those terms.

Most define these terms in a context of their own limited experience or expectations. Most likely both. But did you compare those results, to other methods?

The problem is, the terms are not defined by real comparable results. In this case, I report results, and you then assigned them to all manner of conditions that DO NOT APPLY.

For instance, You mention outdoors, and in my case, that is wrong, you insinuate UV, which again is wrong. Our results are not based on those conditions.

I have achieved a lot of success and I did so by testing the wifestails that were prevelent at the time and many still are today.

Over the last 21 years, we have kept varanids in three different conditions. I build a varanid facility. We have indoor cages, outdoor cages and indoor/outdoor cages.

over that 21 years we have kept monitors, outdoors mainly, indoors, or where they could pick, indoors and outdoors.

In all cases the monitors were raised indoors until they were sexually mature. We do not use UV bulbs, never have. We do not use vitamins and calcium, with the larger species, the species that can start on rodents. We do use a calicum/vitamin mix on odatria that feed on insects, both indoors and outdoors. We did these things because we found a need to do them. Not because we read something or somebody told me to.

In reality, the most stress on a diet is during rapid growth. Consider, a fast growing monitor, over doubles its skeleton every week. That takes a lot of calicum placement. As well as all other vitamin and mineral needs. This is the test of diet.

I mention this because it gives me the unique ability to compare and test these things all at the same time, and I did and do.

So, results, this is what we should be talking about. You say, a varied diet is "BETTER". So I ask, better then what???? You insinuated that in your first reply to me, that I was suggesting something. So I ask you, what are you suggesting when you say a varied diet is BETTER. Better then What? If its better, it must have some standard that its better then. So please, if its better, lets discuss, better then what? Why is it better, what did it do to make it better?

This is where we get all messed up. Better then what. I stated that we have successfully reared species after species on a diet of mice, this includes, flavis, gouldi, panoptes, albigs, croc monitors, lace monitors, cumingi, peachies, bluetails, indicus, dums, and more. They all grew quickly and incurred no problems.

All were raised indoors and without any provisions for UV, other then incandesent bulbs.

Not only did these species grow quickly and matured, most showed superior reproductive results. And of course a few showed superior longevity. Like an ackie that was hatched here, lived 18 years, and George our original Male lacies also lived that long.

The ackie was a female and multiclutched most of her life. At times producing as many as 8 clutches a year.

George fathered many many offspring that we took to four generations. Mind you, most longevity records occur with single males that are kept solitary. Which to me is not living, but exsisting, but thats another story for another time.

Our best reproductive success for larger monitors, came from a female gouldi type, that was hatched here and produced over 80 clutches in her life. She lived to 14 years. I reported the last three years of her life on these forums. You know, she laid her 88th clutch etc etc.

Our best yearly record was from a V.kingorum, which laid 14 clutches in one year.(entirely indoors)

Again, our RESULTS, do not align with your stated requirements. We do not use a varied diet, we do not use UV bulbs. What we do is, try to provide a WIDE choice of conditions. That is, we try not to keep them in a cage and confined in their ability to obtain their OWN needs. We keep them in a cage and attempt to allow them to gain their own needs.

Our animals results, are basically the same indoors or out. Except we lose far more animals outdoors. Its hard to control mother natures extremes. heat, freezing, floods, etc.

What we learned from keeping monitors outdoors was not that they are different, they are not. But, they can obtain a wider range of temps. And that seems to be the key.

So we applied that to our indoor varanids and not only equaled the results of our outdoor animals, but exceeded them.

In all reality, outdoors, the sun, beats everything to death.

We also did many tests outdoors. For instance, much to the surprise of some europeans that visited, outdoor monitors would rather gain heat under a lite bulb, or a heat pad, then the actual sun. Then our sun is a bit much. When we see a cloud, we think we are being invaded by aliens. hahahahahahahahahaha

So back to the subject. Results are how we should define the terms, better, or worse, not on some theory. As I said, we will match our results gained from a mainly rodent diet, to results of any other diet. And on a quanitative basis, that is, over many species and over many generations.

Next, its important to address the basis on which many think a varied diet is "better" in your words, Or required in the thoughts of many. So instead of answering that question, I will ask that of you. Why do you think a varied diet is better? and or, why is it required?

While I respect your wonderful achievement with your water monitor. What did your water monitor achieve in its life?? Did it ever reproduce? how often and how successful? The reason I ask is, The purpose of living animals is to RECRUIT, that is, to reproduce and maintain a population. That is their primary goal. Their task in life is to recruit(successfully reproduce)

So to consider a goal such as longevity, we must also consider that the animal should achieve its primary goal during its lifespan. Normally natural lifespan is based on what it takes to successfully recruit. That is, some insects produce thousands of offspring and only live a season. Or torts that live over a hundred years, in order to successfully recruit once.

Where I feel we as keepers go wrong is, we base our terms on us. Look what I did, I kept this animal alive for X amount of years. While that is good, what about the animal? What did it do, other then have a heartbeat? Did it accomplish any of its goals? consider, in wildlife management, recruitment is the measure of the population. And its the measure of individuals in that population as well.

This gives you an idea of what I think we should base our terms on, What did the animal do and for how long. Our terms should reflect real achievements for both the keeper and the kept. Consider, to just keep an animal alive is not a very lofty measure. Thanks

Hi, thanks for that great response!
You`ve answered a lot more than I asked, and given me lots to think about!!
You`re right of course, most of us do what we`ve been told is "best", some of us do "experiment" with different aspects of the care, sometimes it works, sometimes not. You only need to look at the numbers of these animals that die within the first few months/years, mainly because most keepers have no idea which info is reliable!?
I`m fairly sure in the beginning of your "Varanid career" you made mistakes, and animals were lost (I certainly did). I started keeping them 30 years ago, no "special" lighting/heating, etc, no info on all the other parameters, just stick them in a aviary (when the weather`s good enough), and feed them a few rodents, dog and cat food, lean meats; no elevated temps for basking, etc, etc. As you know, over the last 10-15 years, things have changed dramatically!
I haven`t seen any books recently with your name on them, it`s a shame, I think if you could find the time (take shorter holidays; I`m kidding), it would probably be a real "best seller".
You ask why I think a varied diet is "better", I can only say that almost ALL the books/research papers etc, on these animals recommend that, I asked the question regarding UVB because I believed you live in a part of America that might allow you to keep them outdoors( I noticed in the pics you showed), there ARE articles (admittedly, only a few), that state UVB is very important to these animals (maybe you`re familiar with them)? So again, I see some "evidence" that I think might benefit my animals, so I offer them the opportunity, if it doesn`t do any good, I`ve lost a few pounds/dollars on UVB lamps. Although as far as I`m aware, there`s absolutely no evidence to suggest it`s harmful? After all, they ARE diurnal basking reptiles, even though they can synthesize the D3 from their foods, again, I just think (along with many others), varied is "better" i.e contains more of the vits/minerals etc, we believe they "need" to remain in good health.
Thanks again for your input, I do appreciate it, it`s VERY thought provoking!

Not attacking, but your comment about me making mistakes when I fisrt started with varanids is a funny thought.

First, to make it clear, I still make mistakes, maybe more, they are just of a different type.

ALso, its a constant battle to fight off, out of context suggestions, you know, things you read that were never actually tested.

Which leads to what you read. The suggestions you read about varied diet, do not come from the actual testing of successful animals with a goal. Other then to be alive.

As a field herper, I set similar goals to what they attempt to achieve in nature. To recruit or a regular basis.

About making mistakes early on, I was lucky, my husbandry approach was develops long before I worked with varanids.

In fact, Retes boards, were developed and tested first on kingsnakes. In a attempt to mimic AC(artificial cover) that we found snakes in. The use of trash piles.

Trash piles gave snakes and lizards a way to regulate heat without exposing themselves to the OUTSIDE. What was funny was, you rarely found these snakes out basking, but commonly found them in AC. Which is common today of field forums.

So I asked why, by testing this in captivity. That started somewhere in the sixties.

So then I moved into pythons, I used this principle on of all species, Blackheaded pythons, as such, I think I had the third world breeding with this species, but I become the first to produce them on a regular basis and in number, large numbers. Also the same with Womas. The only difference with pythons was, I had to raise the temps a little.

On to varanids, and it worked so well, that within the first 8 months of having my first "goannas" I had over a 100 eggs in the incubator. Then within a few years, I bred 20 species, in one year.

The retes board approach was not just a stack, but an approach that gave the animal control over picking its own needs, temps, humidity, and security. Not telling them what to do, but giving a range thats both above and below what they use, LIKE IN NATURE, and them work it out.

As a field herper, that does field studies, we find that reptiles spend their entire active life, WORKING THESE THINGS OUT.

Was is odd is, every minute of a reptiles active period is fine tuning its body temperature. What was unique is, they did not use ONE set temp like a human. They used a set of temps, from resting, to low level activity, to normal activity, to high level activity. This range was GREAT, often over 50degrees F.

Let me explain, on a single day in the field, we would RECORD, Internal body temps, in the low 40's, to the high 90's. On one species. These temps were taken on animals that were OUT and active. Not digging them up.

Of course, varanids do the same, but normally do not use the lower temps, and do use higher temps. So the only adjustment was to move the range up a few notches.

But your right, I had read about varied diet and did indeed use that to a point of insanity. Living in the desert, I would collect hundreds of feed lizards for the odatrias, thousands of grasshoppers, and buy millions of crickets and wax worms, and superworms. Etc, as well as rodents.

While I was successful with a varied diet, over the years, it was tiring to keep that up, so it boiled down to crickets and mice for smaller monitors, and rodents for larger monitors.

The results were, I achieved far better results with the non-varied diet.

Now for the funny part, people read papers, and books, and believe what they read, in fact, they do more then believe. They create something that was not there.

You think your doing research by reading, yet you fail to research. I want you to think about this, remember, to think is not to believe, but to ponder, consider, mull over. etc.

Did you ever research the paper or book, or did you just go by what the book said????? In most cases, your believed the book and for no apparent reason.

In most if not all cases, the authors did not keep varanids, or if they did, had little to no success. This is common. They also NEVER tested diet on captives where their was a set goal..

Most of their information, was theory and assumption, based on captive failure, and from, in the field stomach contents.

If you researched further, you would fine that there was no context in the animals investigated. That is, what were the animals doing, what condition were they in, what part of the reproductive cycle were they in. Just RANDOM stomach contents.

The reality is much different then that both in the field and in captivity. In nature, not all individual females can obtain success, nor in captivity. In the field, the females that reproduce, must obtain a certain level of dietary support, but not all do. Same for captivity.

So, what allowed for a healthy reproductive female to recruit in nature, and what allows for that in captivity???? You see, those are better questions. Which is what is needed to improve a set situation. Better questions.

You stated that there is so much failure and your right, but what is the common approach that allows such common failure? That is a good question and it does have answers.

The common recomendation is, a screen topped reptile tank, a hide, a uv bulb and some manner of carpet or cypress substrate. And no real concern for the needs of the animal.

Then there is various products that are suppose to Help, Why do they need help? Your turn to answer some of these, thanks for playing.

Gee, I can`t believe it, I just typed out a great (in my mind), reply, and it didn`t post, it said I need to log in, but I think I took so long to write it out (I type with one finger), it must have stopped it? I`ll respond tomorrow, because it`s getting late over here, but for now, I SERIOUSLY thank you for your detailed and "eye opening" answers! (I can`t think of a better way to learn than to ask questions, or question answers), please know that NOTHING I`ve said was a criticism!
By the way, thanks for the comment on my Ornate monitor`s death.

I have done that before many times, hahahahahahahahaha You can critize, its allowed, if don't nicely, hahahahahahahahaha

Actually I love this type of discussion. Its something the hobby really needs.

For instance, about 14 years ago, Jeff Hoffman and I attempted to establish what success actually meant. You know, a difined layering of success. Hmmmm

People would have none of it. They did not want whatever they were doing to be, hmmmmm not rated high enough, hahahahahahaha.

We could not get anything established. Even the biologists could not define success. Oh well. Tomorrow

First, I need to thank you for giving me permission to criticise you (nicely, just as you say)! ..... I`ll do my best to find something you said I didn`t think made sense; give me a few days, I`ll get a list together!! ( I hope it`s o.k to have a silly joke), learning should ALWAYS be "fun", I think....
I agree with so much of what you`ve said, in particular, reading something isn`t research, research is questioning the results to get the reason/s the info was "supposed" to be "reliable/accurate", then perhaps trying a different method to see if we can match or improve that result. That`s my interpretation anyway, broadly speaking, which I took what you were saying to mean?
I would like to comment on an earlier reply you gave, sorry, I don`t remember which particular thread it was on, but it referred to varanids having the metabolism of birds and mammals, I think that is an exaggeration, and in the context of feeding them "huge" meals (your words), is misleading, although I "think" you did NOT mean "huge" as in the same ammount of food as for example, a similar sized mammal, rather, in relation to most other reptiles, because of their relatively high metabolism, and as many species are wide ranging foragers, they need the "extra" nourishment to fuel that energy? (Am I close to understanding what you meant)? I`ll end this message now because if I take much longer it won`t let me post it!! (I`m betting you use TWO fingers to type)!?

Let me say it another way, when active in their upper limits of metabolism, they have the metabolism of birds and mammals.

Which is normally not allowed in captivity.

For instance, and advantage I have here is, I can put monitors outside. In doing so, I noticed a very odd behavior.

Monitors would sit with part of their bodies and head in the sun and were so hot they would gular flap. A method of cooling blood to the brain.

What was odd is, they stayed that way, it was their choice.

in cages, if a keeper sees that, he lowers the temps because its too hot. hmmmmmmmmmmm

So outside taught me that these animal utilized the upper limits of their body temps, near that of death. As long as they had control, they did so on a regular basis.

At that time, their body temps were above most birds and mammals and their reaction times were incredibly quick. Cheers

Thanks for clearing that point up. Yes, just as you say, their "activity" metabolism can be higher than that of a (resting) mammal, I`ve also seen them in the bush, their reactions are so much faster than most monitors I see in captivity, so I must agree with you entirely on that point.
I still think that in captivity, we need to carefully regulate the (total) ammount of food, because generally speaking, they get very little excercise, and I would think that`s at least a part of the reason I see so many overweight, unhealthy monitors.
Thanks.

I don't think the problem has anything to do with being feed to much to often.I feed my animals small meals daily and none of my animals are over weight.The biggest problem is that we do not offer enough choices.We give them a tall cage(8 foot high)and call it arboreal,we give them a kiddy pool and call it aquatic,we give them 2 feet of dirt ,and say they can make a burrow.When in realty they climb of 20 feet high in trees,swim more than a few feet in the water and burrow sometimes more than 10 feet.Most people keep there animals at the temps that are recommended to them never giving a second thought as to what the monitor wants.Someone says give them a basking site of 130 and then that is what they use.I have seen most of my monitors use a basking site of 150-160,while i have seen others use 120-130,but stay away from the hotter basking spot.

Greg
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1.1 Varanus Rudicollis
2.0.3 Varanus jobiesis
0.0.1 Ornate box turtle
0.1 Varanus Salvidorii
0.0.2 Varanus Salvator

Hi Greg, I agree with most of what you say, compared to the space they have in the wild, we offer them TINY areas to spend their lives in!
But that`s where too much food and too little excercise comes in; if we give them more "fuel" than they can use, they gain weight, you feed as I do, small meals (they`re much easier to digest), so the animal/s can remain active (get excercise) during digestion, as you say, we don`t have overweight monitors. Feeding FREQUENT large meals (3 or 4 times per week or more), leads to obesity, no matter how high the temps are. Some keepers think if they raise the basking temps even higher the animal/s cannot gain weight, that`s quite ridiculous, they (in those cases), spend all their time digesting, very little time moving (excecising). Of course, raising the temps may mean they digest quicker, but then they get fed even more!! Everything`s connected; temps, humidity, foods, feeding regime, excercise etc, etc...

I agree from experience with Manchild.

We again can use any out of context analogy we want.

But, in practice, if allowed a choice up to maximun temps, these animals can consume all they can and only grow up and reproduce.

Of course like with everything there are exceptions, In order for males to STAY producing viable sperm. They much eat a lot like the females. So if this continues until old age, males get first, very large, and second, can get fat. So with old males, we need to TIME their feeding.

Back to nature. Resident(successful) animals DO not move as much as you think. First off, they are required to expend any energy not needed to sustain life, to reproduce, So they conserve as much energy as possible. Which means, do not do anything unnecessary.

Of course transient(non-successful) individuals are always on the move and skinny and parasite infested.

The FACT thats often left out and its an important one is context. If we are going to compare wild to captive, then it needs to be apples to apples. If that information is not apples to apples, then its worthless. Which is why most papers are worthless to us. They are NOT in context.

AGain, if we are talking about a captive that is suppose to breed and obtain normal life events, then we are REQUIRED to compare them to wild animals that are actually obtaining successful life events.

really got to go and work, oh I mean get drunk and sex monitors for fun.

I just want to say how good it is to have a serious dicussion without insults being hurled at anyone who may have a different opinion on some point/s, aren`t we ALL just trying to do whatever we believe benefits the animals? Sincere thanks!!

Well sir, it takes two or more to do this well. The point is, you are asking really good questions, then you use reason. Its never about RIGHT or WRONG. Those two things are exposed after we apply what we learned.

I love good conversations, but as many have seen, I not against a good fight either.

In most cases, those threads are setups. THat is, the person or persons, already want to fight and are not after a discussion.

I thank you because you are willing to discuss.

Also many want this to be BLACK or WHITE, and man its just not that.

Just like the subject we are talking about now. Indeed I can feed a rodent diet and have lots of success and tons of reproduction. And not have the monitors become obese. But, and thats a big butt. If something is missing like the ability to thermoregulate, BOTH high and low. That throws the whole thing out the door.

As I try to get folks to understand, its an applied science, and it does reveal results. in the old days there were little to no results, now there is. Again Thanks

It`s so true; some people just want to put their view across, if anyone dares to disagree, they start the "war". (It IS planned beforehand), I believe they call them "raids"? I think that`s probably because (though they may be giving some good info), they`re only repeatimg what someone else has said, (one view on the whole subject), so anything diffent is seen as "wrong".
The fact is as you say, it`s NOT black and white, so many things (aspects) to consider in caring for them in the most "productive" way, and it takes one small detail to put everything out. (I hope that makes some sense), it`s hard to put these things into words, sometimes.

This is how I understand that metabolism thing.
If all the factors are present ( heat, food, reproduction) they have the mamal/bird metabolism, i mean they can raect as fast as a mamal and eat as much as a mamal of the same size and I think that what they do. If they're hot there is no much differeces betwen them and mamals (as long as we're still talking about metabolism/digestion...)
Now if one of the factors is missing, let say food, contrary to mamals they have the ability to slow down their metabolism and that what they do by hiding in colder places ect... I read on another forum that one member is cooling (brumating) his lace monitors for 6 month evry year and he's noticed his monitors do not loose any weight during the brumation, that's really interesting and illustrate how their metabolism is working when they're cold.

Hi, I think you`ve almost got it, but I`ll do my best to simplify it; their "activity" metabloism can be as high or even higher than the "resting" metabolism of a similar sized mammal, that doesn`t mean if they have enough food, it means as I say, when they are active (as when seasrching for prey/a mate etc etc). when at rest, their metabolism slows down as in other reptiles. When they`ve eaten a large meal, in order to digest it, their metabolism can increase many times over (plus x 20).
Their cardio/pulmonary system approaches that of mammals, and they have large, multicameral lungs, which is another reason they can sustain their activity. Having said all that, they are still poikilothermic reptiles, that only require a fraction of the food that a similar sized mammal needs.
The ammount of excercise they (usually) get in captivity means they sometimes get more "fuel" than they use, in which case, they can lay down fat around the vital organs, leading to disease and possibly death (in extreme cases).

oh dang this is getting real real gooooood. I want to play!!!!!!!

Only I am working. So I have to be quick.

I say they can have a higher metabolism because, Wait, the problem is we say, "THEY". which means them all or all of them or something. Lets backtrack a little

The max temp a monitor uses is based on its ability to lose heat. For instance a large monitor, lots of mass cannot use hit heat because it cannot drop heat quick enough, a baby can. You know, mass to surface area.

So varanids that are large from very hot areas, like Central and west Oz. Cannot risk raising their body temps to the max, in the summer. But can in the winter and spring. But neonates of the same species can use higher body temps.

Its based on behavior. Varanids like mertens bask like crazy and can really raise their body temps because all they have to do is drop in the water to cool off. Their neonates, can almost cook themselves, what an advantage.

Mammals cannot raise their metabolism abover a set range or they are dead. and that does not matter what size they are, or what habitat they are in. While mammals make good use of energy, that also limits them.

This also works for captivity, The speed demons are the neonates. Lacies were mentioned, we bred ones we hatched in less then a year(9 months 10 days was the quickest)

We also bred albigs, flavis, gouldi, argus, from egg to egg, in six months. Odatria, egg to egg is four months.

Also these guys can digest and pass a full stomach in 12 to fourteen hours. That one is so easy to test. Feed them pink mice, their feces is very recogniziable, then feed them lizards, its totally different. Cheers

The problem for me is, it`s difficult to remember all that you`ve said in these (very nice), LONG replies, because on some other5 forums, you can press the "qoute" button, then see the message at the same time, here I can`t (unless I`m missing something?? I want to play too!!

Excuse the spelling, again, there`s no "edit" button, either....

I`m probably going to miss a lot of what you`ve said because it`s so long (but great, keep them coming)! We (mammals) use 80% of the foods we eat just to keep our temps at a precise level, as you`ve explained; varanids don`t need to do that, approx 80% of their food is converted into energy, whether that`s energy to forage widely, search for a mate, or digest the food etc (digestion takes a LOT of energy, particularly large meals), so if they aren`t active they don`t need as much "fuel", and what they have will last quite a while (through the winter/dry season), which is why they don`t lose a lot of weight after several months of not feeding (better if I make this the larger and adult monitors in the wild). Most keepers don`t allow their animals to aestivate over the cooler months (I know, some do).... I don`t think there`s any evidence to suggest keeping them active year-round is detrimental to their health, either short, or long term? Besides, the tropical species in many cases, remain active year round in the wild.
Just to mention, there was an article on V. albigularis some years ago, they found if food was made available, the animals increased their activity (I think, by 20 fold), so the cooler temps didn`t seem to be the reason the monitors went into brumation, it was the lack of prey. One thing about varanids is, they can raise their internal temps by around 2c by endogenous means, which gives them an advantage in cooler times.
You`ve explained how fast the youngsters can develop, because their metabolism is at it`s highest, so we can feed quite large
ammounts very often, no problems whatsoever.. (They NEED that, whithout it they would literally just "waste away". I need to stop, it takes me sooo long to type these out, it will stop me posting it again!