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Thought I was going to lose them...

Lucien Sep 27, 2003 04:18 PM

One of my females who's proven to be a very bad mother.. but gives high numbers of pups compared to some of my others, dropped a litter of 15 pups yesterday afternoon. She wouldn't clean any of them.. the sacs were broken but the afterbirth and unbilicus was still attached. I had to clean them up and get them detached. Well.. none of my other females would take care of the pups.. usually I foster this mother's pups onto another mother... Didn't work this time... So...I decided to try one more thing with her to see if it helped...I took one of my empty 10 gallon aquariums and cleaned it out... introduced the pups first to it and then put her in there... Well.. she took about half of them and moved them to a pile in the corner but left the rest there...it was like a few hours later that I checked them and all those pups left behind were freezing cold..but still alive... so I slowly started putting them back with her in the pile.. She's actually taking care of all of them now. I don't think she likes the community birthing area and thats part of why she ends up abandoning her pups. I'm not certain though but it only took her an hour after I moved them to start taking care of some of the pups at least.
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Lucien

1.0 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)
3.1 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzard and 2 het Blizzard)
0.1 Savannah Monitor
13 rats
12 Gerbils
2 Dogs
3 cats
1 Albino Corey (fish)

Replies (7)

becgs Sep 27, 2003 06:12 PM

I am so glad you chose to share this experience with this forum. Your actions definitely had a good outcome, although we're all aware that even some decisions we make that don't turn out well often end up being just as useful as the ones that do turn out! But you sure got my curiosity going and I had to comment and also ask questions.... mostly just musing but I'd love to hear your (and other's) comments too.

I wonder, first, if when you'd fostered this female's pups before if they had been cleaned up (ie no afterbirth/umbilical cords etc. present) or not? I'm curious as to whether this may have been the reason why your other females didn't take the pups this time when previously they had.

It sure seems like your assessment is correct regarding why she's not been a good mother thus far, with your thinking that it was the communal birth tank that was affecting her inability to care for her pups properly.

But this, too, got me wondering about the general "colony mind-set" nature of rodents. Although it might not kick in with, say, a first time mother, but in general the colony minded rodent would not abandon a litter unless conditions were not favorable. And as I understand it, the abandonment would closely follow with cannibalizing... yes?

Obviously there are always exceptions to even these instinctual behavioral 'rules' ... it's all food for thought.

Thanks for posting this experience.... always great to read stories like this. In the past I know I've heard of many instances, mice or rats, where the mother may scatter her litter around the cage floor (rather than keeping them in the usual 'heap') but eventually collect them and do their motherly duty. I believe the time period I've read most often is about at that one hour mark.... that much past that, without getting the warmth and that crucial 'milk tummy' then they're not long for the world.

Definitely looking forward to an update - both about how the pups fare, and also if you choose to breed this prolific female again, how you decide to house her afterwards, and the outcome of that decision.

Thanks again for sharing....

-----
Rebecca
TSBabe66@hotmail.com
Honored to moderate at Snakefeeders, a great place to buy/sell/trade feeder animals. Come check us out! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snakefeeders/

>>One of my females who's proven to be a very bad mother.. but gives high numbers of pups compared to some of my others, dropped a litter of 15 pups yesterday afternoon. She wouldn't clean any of them.. the sacs were broken but the afterbirth and unbilicus was still attached. I had to clean them up and get them detached. Well.. none of my other females would take care of the pups.. usually I foster this mother's pups onto another mother... Didn't work this time... So...I decided to try one more thing with her to see if it helped...I took one of my empty 10 gallon aquariums and cleaned it out... introduced the pups first to it and then put her in there... Well.. she took about half of them and moved them to a pile in the corner but left the rest there...it was like a few hours later that I checked them and all those pups left behind were freezing cold..but still alive... so I slowly started putting them back with her in the pile.. She's actually taking care of all of them now. I don't think she likes the community birthing area and thats part of why she ends up abandoning her pups. I'm not certain though but it only took her an hour after I moved them to start taking care of some of the pups at least.
>>-----
>>Lucien
>>
>>1.0 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)
>>3.1 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzard and 2 het Blizzard)
>>0.1 Savannah Monitor
>>13 rats
>>12 Gerbils
>>2 Dogs
>>3 cats
>>1 Albino Corey (fish)

Lucien Sep 27, 2003 06:39 PM

Yeah the pups had been cleaned up by me the last time(s) as well.. I think it has more to do with the fact that the female I was trying to foster them with had just finished nursing a set of other fostered pups and was getting ready to have her next litter in the next few days. She was at the "weaning" stage of her mothering duty at this point and could possibly have been why she didn't take these pups.

Often times as far as I know, yes there would have been cannabilization.. However, this mother(named Pain) has never showed any inclination to cannabilize.. merely abandonment...She's a very uncertain mother as to how to go about things... Why I'm not sure.. I can't pinpoint anything.. Her sister and mother are all very good parents with their pups. In fact, her twin sister, Panic, is the one who fosters her pups.. (I know they were twins because I watched them be born). I think Pain just doesn't like the stress of all the other rats around her... and she isn't a dominant animal in the tank so she flees the harassment rather than remain and fight them off... unfortunately, her pups can't flee with her.

About an hour ago I went in and found 5 of the 15 pups had died just recently because I checked this morning.. They all had nursed.. but I think the stress of being moved around and jostled got to them and they died.. Because Pain has been on those pups since last night...I figured, if I put her in closer quarters with the pups and without constant interference of the other rats.. she might feel more secure and more inclined to take care of them. So far, she has. The other 10 pups are all alert, active, vocal and nursing well.

I pretty much plan to breed her again yes, but this time, when I know she's due, I'll move her into her own seperate cage and see how that comes out. This is like her.. 3rd litter.. her first was 9.. her second 12... and now 15... These are the only set I haven't had to foster out to other females.. the first and second times.. everyone dropped at the same time...So I was able to parcel them out between 5 other nursing mothers. This time didn't work like that...

From what I've read, rat pinks can actually live up to 24 hrs provided they're kept warm, without nursing..and after that they can be kept alive for a day or two on just sugar water.. after that it gets critical that they get nourishment..though their immune system from lack of pobtaining Colustrum, will be severely lacking due to the loss of the antibodies contained in the first milk. I'll definately keep you updated on her and the pups.. See what happens...
-----
Lucien

1.0 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)
3.1 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzard and 2 het Blizzard)
0.1 Savannah Monitor
13 rats
12 Gerbils
2 Dogs
3 cats
1 Albino Corey (fish)

MissHisssss Sep 28, 2003 01:29 AM

Just wondering how newborns can get that all important first milk from mothers that have been nursing 24/7 in the community nest? Just curious.

I LOVE these forums
MissHisssss

Lucien Sep 28, 2003 11:07 AM

I'm not actually certain with rats.. I know Kangaroo's can secrete different types of milk for their joey's... They can have one 6 month old Joey out of the pouch nursing on one type of milk.. and a newborn attached to a teat taking a different composition of milk. I'm not sure how that works or if it works for other animals as well... The first milk is usually secreted for up to 24 hrs.. however...antibodies are present in milk at all othe times as well.. its just not that big dose of them. Lion cubs will nurse from all of the females in the pride if their lactating because it gives them a wider variety of antibodies to fight disease. I'm kind of, of the mind that community animals are about the same way..
-----
Lucien

1.0 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)
3.1 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzard and 2 het Blizzard)
0.1 Savannah Monitor
13 rats
12 Gerbils
2 Dogs
3 cats
1 Albino Corey (fish)

MissHisssss Sep 28, 2003 11:46 PM

Thanks for the explaination, I just wish there was a way to find out for sure.

I LOVE these forums
MissHisssss.

patricia sherman Sep 29, 2003 05:13 AM

>>I am so glad you chose to share this experience with this forum. ...

I really enjoyed reading this one.

>>... with your thinking that it was the communal birth tank that was affecting her inability to care for her pups properly.

I've frequently noticed that there are some mothers who do much better when they're placed into separate maternity cages. For particularly nervous mothers, sometimes it makes a huge difference how much privacy they have. Some even need the additional security of having their nest area enclosed so that it is continually in darkness or shadow.

>>But this, too, got me wondering about the general "colony mind-set" nature of rodents. ...

Every colony eventually develops a pecking-order. A sensitive lower-ranked individual may be highly intimidated by the alpha and beta members of the colony. Females feel particularly vulnerable at birthing-time, and may resort to abandonment because they lack the spunk to defend their litters from the incursions of bully-girls.

>>... I believe the time period I've read most often is about at that one hour mark.... that much past that, without getting the warmth and that crucial 'milk tummy' then they're not long for the world.

Actually, they can go for several hours without it, and still come back okay, provided that they were cleaned at birth, don't get too seriously chilled, and that they don't get badly trampled.
.
-----
tricia

becgs Sep 29, 2003 06:03 AM

Tricia, thanks so much for these comments -- I'm a relative novice and a definite 'layperson' when it comes to rodents. The way I try to figure out puzzling situations is to retrieve what I can from my knowledge of, or research on, rodent habitats/behaviors in the wild, then I attempt to apply that to the relative domestic setting we create for our own colonies. Sometimes of course the only solution is to "punt" when the loose ends don't meet up. When folks like you and Lucien post, lots of those loose ends definitely get tied up!

>>I've frequently noticed that there are some mothers who do much better when they're placed into separate maternity cages. For particularly nervous mothers, sometimes it makes a huge difference how much privacy they have. Some even need the additional security of having their nest area enclosed so that it is continually in darkness or shadow.

This sure makes sense when compared with the tunnel-like surroundings of many wild rodent habitats. I've seen rats and mice both who do not make any sort of 'nest' whatsoever, regardless of whether nesting material is available or not. Others will burrow down as deep as possible or heap up bedding until you can see neither mother nor pups.

>>
>>>>But this, too, got me wondering about the general "colony mind-set" nature of rodents. ...
>>
>>Every colony eventually develops a pecking-order. A sensitive lower-ranked individual may be highly intimidated by the alpha and beta members of the colony. Females feel particularly vulnerable at birthing-time, and may resort to abandonment because they lack the spunk to defend their litters from the incursions of bully-girls.

Ah, pecking order! How could I have forgotten about rank within a colony -- that makes so much more fall into place....

>>
>>Actually, they can go for several hours without it, and still come back okay, provided that they were cleaned at birth, don't get too seriously chilled, and that they don't get badly trampled.
>>.

And this seems to be just what Lucien was describing... that the pups had been cleaned (even if not by the mother) and then were re-introduced to the mother within the solitary enclosure.

Also fascinating to me (and I realize this isn't the right "place" to make this response - I hope Lucien sees this) is the notion of applying behaviors of OTHER species, also "community animals" to try to understand these rodents. I refer to Lucien's comments about kangaroos and lions.... and the production of different types of milk during different stages of lactation, with the outcome being (in the case of the lions) that pups nursing from different females ends up as yet another way to increase the species chances of survival.

The "rules" of survival and basic instinctual behavior within a community or colony-minded species is probably the biggest key to understanding much of what we see within our own feeder colonies. Makes me wonder (and I know it'd be impossible to get true data about this too-broad question) about whether there are notable differences in the overall behaviors observed by those of us who are "small scale" maintaining a few individual cages, and those who house many colonies in large scale rack systems, especially in terms of how these observed behaviors then relate back to rodent behavior in the wild.

More food for thought, I suppose. =)
-----
Rebecca
TSBabe66@hotmail.com
Honored to moderate at Snakefeeders, a great place to buy/sell/trade feeder animals. Come check us out! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snakefeeders/

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