Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So Goini X Brooksi are "Hybrids" now?

Well according to KS.com they are? My ad for 3rd generation Goini x Brooksi was moved from the Kingsnake Classifieds and placed under "Other: Hybrids and Intergrades" Maybe if i just called them "Lavender Goini" like others do they would have a place in the KS. Classifieds?

There are too many sub-categories in the Classifieds. When I use to browse the kingsnake/milksnake classifieds, i may come across something i wasn't looking for, because they were listed together, Since the split i've browsed the Milksnake category ONCE, and that was because i noticed there had been split.

Is all the division necessary? If it's a matter of appearance then it's pointless. As a seller it takes away from the possibility of a potential buyer coming across something they weren't looking for. As a consumer/potential buyer it would seem easier if all these snakes remained listed as together i remember (find everything in one place). Shouldn't the consumer have the option of whether they'd like to browse a listing of a hybrid/cross or bypass it?

The "hybrid/intergrade" category is listed 17 spaces down from the colubrid section and grouped with other categories that barely see any "traffic." Additional various species are listed under the same "hybrid" banner and this is supposedly to be better? I know many in the snake community would rather if crosses did not exist but they do, and to throw them all (regardless of species/sub-species) under one category, that isn't directly linked to the type of snakes they are is bad for a seller.

Is there something i missed? can someone please explain to me why the current setup is better? If the "Hybrid" category IS absolutely necessary then shouldn't all the headings (Pythons, Boas, Colubrids, Venomous, etc...) have their own Hybrid/intergrade link? Probably not as there are less than 30 posts in the current category. so why aren't they just left where they were?

~ZF

Zenny,
First of all i agree with you 100%. But someone at KS thinks it that simple. But it is not.

What they should have is a true hybrid forum and not include intergrades (natural and unatural) otherwise almost every snake would end up in the hybrid/intergrade forum.

The real problem here is people don't like the word association with "hybrid" and classifying them with "intergrasdes" can make for some problems for KS because people don't want to list their snakes under that monicur. Why? Because people just would not go there to look at what is avaliable. That makes for low sales. And that = problems. What will happen is more and more people will reasign the true lineages to make sure they get into the regular kingsnak/milksnake forum. That will make for more pollution among the gene pools because sllers will be less honesst and upfront as to what they are selling.

Unless KS is willing to police what people are listing and the true linages IN THE PROPER CATAGORY they may have bit off more than they can chew.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I think the people who are going to lie about their stock will do so regardless of any catagory. In responce to ZF I like how it is now with all the smaller catagories. I want to see Kings thats what I get and vice versa with the Milks.

Bone

I didn't weigh in on this at first since my opinion means zip but had to just to let you know I agree...
I've cruised the classifieds much less lately..
You see, I'm lazy and too many clicks is just too much for me!

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Having a hybrid catagory in each section is fine. However, they should have to be kept in that designated area. I dont like hybrids and think they should be kept out of the Kingsnake, Milksnake, ect. sections. They shouldn't have to be way down in the nose bleeds though.
Gerard

I like all the categories because there is less to wade through when looking for something specific. Shopping for Thayeri before meant wading through countless king and milksnake adds, sometimes I would easily miss adds trying to skip over all the other stuff.

Granted it makes it harder to just browse all the kings if you not really looking for something specific, but nothing is perfect.

Hybrids is easy. If your worried your animals might be classified as hybrids and don't want the stigma..... Then don't produce animals that could be considered hybrids. Seems simple enough.

Link

I'm with you. And technically yeah, those are intergrades. So that's where they go.

I like the classifieds personally.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

So your solution is stop doing something i enjoy doing because "people" want to classify them incorrectly or cuz some don't care for it? It's hard to believe that adults think this way!

Yes it is a simple solution but no thank you. I don't like the narrow mindedness what would limit an individual's ability to market animal in the way they'd like. (who are we trying to please?) If KS.com wants a Hybrid section that's fine, i just don't want my ad moved from the place i put it. Especially If i'm paying for my service and the animals i'm selling fit in the category they were originally placed in.

I understand splitting the Milksnakes but why the kingsnake subcategories. If anything it seem more incomplete than convenient ... if you'd like to look for something specific well why aren't there more categories (Eastern kings, Florida kings, Eastern Black kings, Goini/Meani, California, Desert, Mexican blacks, etc...)

yes YOU know what you're looking for but what about the newbie that doesn't know the difference btwn these ssp.

There is:

King Snakes

Milk Snakes

Gray banded Kings (23 listings)

Mountain Kings (11 listings)

Mexicana Complex Kings (18 Listings)

WHY? they are all Kingsnakes (with the exception of milksnakes) ... You (and others) are free to refrain from clicking on an ad for animals you don't like... but when my ad is placed in a section i did not put it because the "moderator" thought it would fit better there, there is a line being crossed.

Side Note: Nice Ghost!

Seems the catagory is intergrades and hybrids. I dont see why you think your snake doesnt fall into this. Its an intergrade and not a naturally ocurring one, seems like a no brainer. I myself believe you can breed whatever the hell you want, you have that right but others also have the right to protest your choices. Freedoms like that work both ways.

Bone

lets be real. most of what we breed in captivity wouldn't happen in the wild so i never understood that argument. if i breed two kingsnakes no matter what the range is it's still a kingsnake. Personal feelings about an issue has no place in business. These things fall i a gray area (some like it, others don't) so it shouldn't be addressed. One has the ability to bypass an ad they don't approve of.

Ok simply this... if i were to take other ads and place them 17 links down from where other snakes of their type was do you think many will see those ads? what happens then... many ads aren't seen, snakes will be sold to whom ever at what ever cost because the ads has been collecting dust.

If there is to be a Hybrid/intergrade section then it should be clearly visible for THAT section not the way it currently is with all "hybrids, intergrades, crosses of all species listed under the same link... I'm trying to sell snakes here!

Why pay for a service if my ads wont be seen is what i'm trying to say. All some seem to get is that i'm upset my ad was moved. I'm trying to make my life easier not harder.

So your mad that your unpopular breeding choices are listed at the bottom. Stop breeding hybrids and then you wont have to worry. Your animals are hybrids and they should be in the hybrid section. Not many people breed hybrids so it makes sense to have one section for all of them. It could be a little higher on the list but thats not the case. Just post them where the belong and people will look. At least your being responsible and not trying to pass them off as pure.
Gerard

~ZF

What you youngsters don't know is most of the snakes in the KING & Milksnake classifieds ARE intergrades and don't belong linked with HYBRIDS.

Maybe Doug Mong saved TonyD's description of the different claases and can post them here?
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www.Bluerosy.com

>>What you youngsters don't know is most of the snakes in the KING & Milksnake classifieds ARE intergrades and don't belong linked with HYBRIDS.

I would disagree with that statement. While that may be "true" for the floridana, which has always been problematic, I would say the majority of the snakes offered in the kingsnake and milk snake classifieds are neither hybrids nor intergrades, at least not as defined by range maps, collection data, nor scientific name. But as long as someone needs to get a degree somewhere, there will always be someone willing to split the hairs even further, thus creating new "subspecies" and thus more "intergrades" and muddying the waters further.

BUT as long as there are both hybrids and intergrades and those are recognized as such by science and industry, there will be a classified section for them under this rev of the classifieds.

Frankly the argument itself is likely academic as the final rev of the classifieds in the spring is like as not to have NO CATEGORIES at all - chew on THAT one for a couple days ~~~

Me - I could care less whether there are hybrids, intergrades, or not, and I have to laugh every time someone says I am "singling them out" because of this or any other issue.

The bottom line is this. If you get your panties in a bunch because of a policy or change, and decide make my work day, or anyone elses here longer and harder because your unhappy that the 14 cents a day you spend here doesn't give you the ability to set your own rules, I will be happy to refund your remaining balance. I long ago resigned myself to the fact that nothing I do on kingsnake.com will make everyone happy, but if I can get 95% in the end that's good enough.

I don't know I may have missed something but I think Zenny conducted himself with civility and courtesy. I thought this was a forum of opinions and Ideas? If we can't politely express our opinions here then why are we wasting our time here? There are other classifieds, free ones too. I don't get the attitude? I see this problem from two sides which I am good at doing, lol. From a buyers point of view, I can go directly to the section I want to find what I want. From a sellers point of view, it's like the kiss of death for anyone who breeds anything that this site deems to be Intergrade or Hybrid. Who is this site more concerned with pleasing? I guess 95% here don't like anything that that even resembles a hybrid so they have the majority in the House? Either way it doesn't make a big difference to me, but i guess it's not even up for discussion? I don't get it? So here's a question for anybody who wants to answer. Is a S. Georgia Wide banded eastern King X Virginia Eastern King an intergrade?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

"So here's a question for anybody who wants to answer. Is a S. Georgia Wide banded eastern King X Virginia Eastern King an intergrade?"

Here is another one, Is a creamsicle corn a Hybrid? It is actually a cross, Pantherophis guttatus x Pantherophis emoryi. Why would they not be in the Hybrid/Intergrade section? This opens a big can of worms. This is where using pet trade names make it confusing, why not list the categories in Scientific Names First with pet trade names second? And if it is a L.p.p x L.pk that should still be listed under L.pyromelana (mountain kings), and L.g.floridana x L.g.getulus should still be listed under L.g.(kingsnakes) and so on....

Just a thought, I am not here to make anyone mad. And it is the right of the website owner to do what he/she feels is right, but as a business owner myself I take all discussions with an open mind and make a educated decision based on polls or discussions with other people in the same field.

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Jimmy Tintle

Jimmy that's all I'm trying to do is provoke thoughtful discussion. I hear you brother.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

A creamsicle would be a Hybrid. Cross=Hybrid. In regards to the Eastern question it wouldnt be a cross, hybrid or intergrade. Both parents would be L.g.getula and locality data is neither here nor there, same subspecies.

Bone

It should probably be up to the sellers discretion which category they want to market their snakes under.

Personally I wouldn't want to put my locality intergrades into a category meant for man-made crosses. They still appeal more to the crowd that is into "pure" kingsnakes.

.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Man-made crosses are FAR, FAR different than natural locality intergrade snakes!

a HUGE difference!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>Man-made crosses are FAR, FAR different than natural locality intergrade snakes!
>>
>> a HUGE difference!

That is what I've been saying all along.....
A natural intergrade occurs and is not made in a snake room.....
The later are hybrids..............In my honest opinion.........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Whatever your personal feelings are towards Getula:man-made-snakeroom-crosses are your own to have.

What we all do in our snake rooms does not occur in nature. Even is one was to find two snakes in the same region does not mean their paths would ever cross or they would ever breed. So this Wild vs Snakeroom argument has no real merit! However, that was never up for debate, some not liking something is no reason to make it harder for me to sell my animals.

I shopped on KS.com for years before i sold anything so i think i know exactly what i was talking about when i formulated my post. It's become obvious that i wont get the solution i desire and that's fine (I'm happy 2 know how you all feel.)

I have the right to breed my animals just like everyone else, just not the right to properly market animals some don't like. Overall this was about making sales not what people THINK would be better. For the years the Classifieds were listing all Kingsnakes (crossed or not) i dont think you or anyone else had an issue not clicking on something you weren't interested in. As a buyer/seller separating crosses is bad for business that's the bottom line.

hypothetically replace the Hybrid/intergrade section with Mexican-Complex and lets see how many people see your ads. It's obvious the separation is for personal rather than practical reason and thats all i have to say

~ZF

I think many who have replied are getting lost on the real issue here. It's not whether a goini/brooksi cross is a hybrid or integrade, nor is the issue what category it belongs in.

The issue is that Zenny pays to post classified ads. He chose to post his ad under the king snake section because he is trying to reach guess who: king snake buyers, many of whom happen to be interested i nexactly what he's selling. How many of you out there who are interested in goini and or brooksi ever look under the hybrid section of the classifieds? I'd wager not many. And you have to admit, few hybrid enthusiasts are going to care about an integrade kingsnake unless you throw in some corn snake or peublan milk blood or the like. That's not meant to be insulting to hybrid enthusiasts, it's just an observation.

I've been in the advertising/marketing/design field for around 16 years. When an advertiser wants to spend money with you, you may make suggestions, but you don't force them to place their ad somewhere they don't want.

You guys should be supporting Zenny's right to choose the section he'd like to advertise in.
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http://www.mikefoux.com
http://snakerack.blogspot.com

2.6.2 Hondurans (Normal, amel, hypo, anery, ghost)
1.2.0 Pueblans (Normal, hypo)
0.1.0 Corn Bloodred
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.1.0 California King (normal, blue-eyed blond)
0.2.0 Speckled Kings Calcasieu Parish locality
1.1.0 Brooksi Hypo
1.1.0 Goini/Brooks Cross (Blaze and hypo)
1.1.0 San Diego gophers
0.0.1 Texas Rat
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
1.2.1 Leopard Geckos(various morphs)
0.1.0 Wife, Caucasius Mexicana Integrade WC

Read my post toward the top...."a simple solution".

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Sorry guys what it really comes down to is this its Jeff B's site to do with and run as he pleases. If you dont like it then sell your stuff elsewhere, its simple really. Someone posted the old cliche that the Customer is always right but I dont think that applies here. ZF is basically renting space like everyone else selling critters here. The true customers are the people who buy snakes from the breeders. Those are who Jeff B. and the breeders aim to please.

Bone

>>Sorry guys what it really comes down to is this its Jeff B's site to do with and run as he pleases. If you dont like it then sell your stuff elsewhere, its simple really. Someone posted the old cliche that the Customer is always right but I dont think that applies here. ZF is basically renting space like everyone else selling critters here. The true customers are the people who buy snakes from the breeders. Those are who Jeff B. and the breeders aim to please.
>>
>>Bone

Actually the people buying snakes are the breeders customers. The Breeders are the sites customers. KS makes nothing from the people buying snakes. But your correct, on his ability to run his business anyway he likes. That's what free market is all about. Then the venders have the right to go elsewhere, or put up with the rules.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I understand your concern Zenny....
You chose to reach out to Kingsnake buyers and not those who frequent the hybrid section......

All I can say is this......
Just wait until they revamp the site soon, then all will change.....In the mean time post your ads with Getula in the title then describe them in the ad...........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

A natural intergrade occurs and is not made in a snake room.....
The later are hybrids..............In my honest opinion.........
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John Lassiter

so all snakes made in snake rooms are intergrades/hybrids, i mean nobody can definitively say otherwise in my honest opinion. ALL manmade snakes are just that, manmade.
,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>so all snakes made in snake rooms are intergrades/hybrids, i mean nobody can definitively say otherwise in my honest opinion. ALL manmade snakes are just that, manmade.

Yep....no telling what their locales are unless you collected them yourself and can prove it to someone....huh?

Then there are those instances where there are NATURAL hybrids in the wild....not intergrades.....or are they?

After reading more of this thread I don't think that is the argument......Zenny wanted to market his snakes to folks that view the Kingsnake Classifieds and not those who view the Hybrid/Intergrade Classifieds.......that is all.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>>Yep....no telling what their locales are unless you collected them yourself and can prove it to someone....huh?

>even if collected under the same board with many witnesses theres noway of knowing if those animals would have produced offspring in the wild, simple fact purist disregard, they wanna beleive they have pure true blue nature in their hands when in reality they have manmade snakes. captive pairings produce manmade snakes IE = hybrids/intergrades.
on a side note i beleive zenny just wanted to sell his snakes and i would be peaved to, moved to a new hybrid section when the simple fact is they are kingsnakes, talk about LAME.
how fine can this hair be split?
easiest imho would be sections as follows...
snakes
lizards
turtles/torts
amphibians
other
,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Yes sir....Selective Propogation is what we do.....
Mother nature practices Natural Selection..........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

"The bottom line is this. If you get your panties in a bunch because of a policy or change, and decide make my work day, or anyone elses here longer and harder because your unhappy that the 14 cents a day you spend here doesn't give you the ability to set your own rules, I will be happy to refund your remaining balance. I long ago resigned myself to the fact that nothing I do on kingsnake.com will make everyone happy, but if I can get 95% in the end that's good enough."

I won't tell anyone how to run their business but from this posting I am feeling that you are upset that people that post or tell you their thoughts and because the pay $0.14 a day to post they have have no say so. They are still customers and the old saying "Customers are always right" Isn't really applying here. As customers they do have the right to move on and post else where, but why threaten them, if they don't like something you have done with your business?

I don't think anyone is trying to make your work day harder I think they are trying to understand your position on the business decision you made. Were all classified posters that pay notified that all intergrades and hybrids, deemed to your specifications notified in advance? Do you have a list posted of the animals that are considered Hybrids and Intergrades? These are questions that I don't have an answer too and maybe you can help clarify your decision by posting requirements for that section.

Again, this is not a shot at you and in no means am I telling you how to run "Your" business just trying to understand the whole hoopla. Thanks for your time and the right to post this on your website.

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Jimmy Tintle

I would say the majority of the snakes offered in the kingsnake and milk snake classifieds are neither hybrids nor intergrades, at least not as defined by range maps, collection data, nor scientific name.

Most kings and milks in the classifieds are not localtity specific.

Does meansi (aka goini) intergrade with other getula?
Hondurans- founding stock collection data
speckled kings- range map intergration?

Florida x eastern kings (new range maps based on DNA say that all florida/easterns 300 miles down down the GA border are intergrades)so if they look like floridana or easterns that is what they are?

I agree that most florida kings and other are "problematic". But should they be lumped with hybrids? Or would it be more correct to have a seperate "natural and unatural intergrade" section?

In other words we have intergrades that naturally occur and meet in the wild. Some are from WC and some are recreated by captive breeding (ie,. manmade natural intergrades)..an eastern x Florida for example.

Then there are some man made intergrades made that would never meet in the wild and yet are reproduced through captive propogation.

I just think "hybrid" is a strong word to bunch together with intergrades. If most people can accept this and know the difference, then having a sub-catagory that lumps them together is fine. Just as it was fine to mix intergrades with so called "pure' spp. as it was before. Before it was all a mix of intergrades

Jeff, anytime you have change, people resist. But it is good to talk about it once or twice until things calm down and us folks get it worked out in our heads and accept change. Also good to know what is really going on. So I am glad you chimed in here.
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www.Bluerosy.com

300 miles down from Georgia? Then at the 301 mile marker its all pure Floridana? Im not doubting what you have seen just need some clarification. Very interesting.

Good point, but I don't think there is any definate line that species end or start just a general reference point.
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Jimmy Tintle

Yeah I know there isnt an exact point I was being facetious.

The Krysko range map in Brian Hubb's book under the Florida king section is based on the most recent thorough examination of the subspecies.

The Blaney range map in Hubb's book is from work done in the 70s and was based only on scale counts, which has been shown to be an inconsistent trait and not useful for identification. This is the one which shows intergrades ranging way down into the South Florida.

Recent the 3 eastern subspecies of getula were lumped together as L. getula (no subspecies), and split from the rest. There are no intergrades! Actually, I don't think many are going to endorse this this one.

I don't care for how far down the hybrids and intergrades are listed either, but something else I've seen would bother me more. All of the Boa constrictor crosses are still listed in the Boa section. I don't see how they are any different from your florida king crosses?

I do think there are more positives than negatives with the new categories, especially for python keepers, that category was way over stuffed before. Maybe the Hybrid section should be for species level crosses and intergrades could stay in the section for the species?

The good news is that websites are like the weather in ______. If you don't like it, just wait 15 min.....

" something else I've seen would bother me more. All of the Boa constrictor crosses are still listed in the Boa section. I don't see how they are any different from your florida king crosses?"

I agree. If intergrades are going to get parted out as well it needs to be consistent. Rules/TOS have to be consistent in application or it leads to confusion.
>>
>>I do think there are more positives than negatives with the new categories, especially for python keepers, that category was way over stuffed before. Maybe the Hybrid section should be for species level crosses and intergrades could stay in the section for the species?
Also agreed. oN the whole the changes are good, at least I think so. Easier to navigate around, easier to find what I'm looking for. This is, of course, coming as a buyer
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

"Shopping for Thayeri before meant wading through countless king and milksnake adds, sometimes I would easily miss adds trying to skip over all the other stuff."

Ever try the search button? Saves a lot of wading time.

You are free to breed what ever you want. I would have no problem if you found a WC natural hybrid. What you did is cross a south florida kingsnake with a species found in the Panhandle of florida. That is a hybrid I dont want to see in the kingsnake section. I want to see pure brooksi and goini. Posting your animals in that section is irresponsible. I think the hybrid section could be moved up, but that is where they belong. I dont see why you would be mad about that. You chose to do it. Now just post theem where they belong.
Gerard

I personally don't have a problem with there being a "Hybrids & Integrades" subsection. But I DO agree with Zenny the "Hybrids & Integrades" subsection has been placed in the wrong category, of "Other". Should a subsection of hybrid snakes for sale be listed among "retail businesses", "breeder & stud services", and "Trade", etc? I think not. If anything, a subsection of "Hybrids & Integrades" would seem fitting for almost EVERY main category, whether it be Kingsnakes, Milksnakes, Pythons, Boas, - WHATEVER. I know of a few common hybrids in pythons and kings. But with there only being ONE "Hybrid" section, shoppers are now going to be browsing through ALL "hybrids" - not even remotely related to what it is they're actually looking for. I'm a kingsnake enthusiast at heart, and I don't mind seeing the occasional hybrid king for sale, if I'm looking through the kingsnake ADs. What I don't really want to see when shopping for kings specifically, is the Diamond-Retic cross. How can these completely different snakes be listed in the same subsection just because they're both hybrids? Now I personally do not prefer hybrids of any snake, but that's just me. I can empathize with Zenny. I'd be peaved too, if my kingsnake AD was moved over to "No-mans land". IT'S STILL A KINGSNAKE! It was ONLY after seeing Zenny's post did I (for the first time) actually go down, click on, and see the "hybrid" section.

For the most part, I like the new categories KS has added - it streamlines the classifieds...I just think the "Hybrid" subsection has been misplaced and/or is too generalized.

Kingsnake is a kingsnake. There should be a Purist section for those that do want to sell PURE F0-f1 lineages I AGREE 100%...... Dont put designer KS crosses under a catagory that is never seen by potential hobbiest . next they put normal BP section het for something LOL. keep the hobby interesting ....

Intergrades are hybrids......especially if made in your snake room.......

Intergrades/Hybrids occur in the wild......and are pure.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I thought goini and brooksi were now considered floridana by (most) taxonomists and that the names are generally used only by hobbyists to distinguish between the two localities. In that case, they wouldn't be integrades, would they?
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http://www.mikefoux.com
http://snakerack.blogspot.com

2.6.2 Hondurans (Normal, amel, hypo, anery, ghost)
1.2.0 Pueblans (Normal, hypo)
0.1.0 Corn Bloodred
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.1.0 California King (normal, blue-eyed blond)
0.2.0 Speckled Kings Calcasieu Parish locality
1.1.0 Brooksi Hypo
1.1.0 Goini/Brooks Cross (Blaze and hypo)
1.1.0 San Diego gophers
0.0.1 Texas Rat
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
1.2.1 Leopard Geckos(various morphs)
0.1.0 Wife, Caucasius Mexicana Integrade WC

Apalachicola kingsnakes are presently considerered to be L.g.meansi. They are not considered to have any direct relation to Floridana, and their ranges do not contact.

Thanks for the info, I didn't know that.
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http://www.mikefoux.com
http://snakerack.blogspot.com

2.6.2 Hondurans (Normal, amel, hypo, anery, ghost)
1.2.0 Pueblans (Normal, hypo)
0.1.0 Corn Bloodred
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.1.0 California King (normal, blue-eyed blond)
0.2.0 Speckled Kings Calcasieu Parish locality
1.1.0 Brooksi Hypo
1.1.0 Goini/Brooks Cross (Blaze and hypo)
1.1.0 San Diego gophers
0.0.1 Texas Rat
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
1.2.1 Leopard Geckos(various morphs)
0.1.0 Wife, Caucasius Mexicana Integrade WC