Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You

Classified List Suggestion

pyromaniac Jan 24, 2011 10:26 AM

What the classifieds listing look like now:

Pythons
Ball Pythons
Green Tree Pythons
Carpet & Diamond Pythons
Burmese Pythons
Reticulated Pythons
Blood & Short Tail Pythons
Other Pythons

Boas
Boa Constrictors
Rosy, Sand, & Rubber Boas
Tree Boas
Other Boas

Colubrids
Kingsnakes
Milk Snakes
Mexicana Complex Kings
Gray-Banded Kingsnakes
Mountain Kingsnakes
New World Rat Snakes
Old World Rat Snakes
Corn Snake Varieties
Bull, Pine, & Gopher Snakes
Hognose Snakes
Garter & Water Snakes
Other Colubrid Snakes

Venomous
Crotalids & Pit Vipers
Cobras & Other Elapids
Viperidae & True Vipers
Rear-Fanged Snakes
Venomoid
Gilas & Beaded Lizards
Spiders & Other Inverts

Other
Hybrids & Intergrades
Breeder Loans/Stud Services
Trades
Retail Stores
Wholesale/Commercial Dealers

What I would change it to:

Pythons
Ball Pythons
Green Tree Pythons
Carpet & Diamond Pythons
Burmese Pythons
Reticulated Pythons
Blood & Short Tail Pythons
Other Pythons

Boas
Boa Constrictors
Rosy, Sand, & Rubber Boas
Tree Boas
Other Boas

Colubrids
Kingsnakes
Milk Snakes
Mexicana Complex Kings
Gray-Banded Kingsnakes
Mountain Kingsnakes
New World Rat Snakes
Old World Rat Snakes
Corn Snake Varieties
Bull, Pine, & Gopher Snakes
Hognose Snakes
Garter & Water Snakes
Other Colubrid Snakes

Venomous
Crotalids & Pit Vipers
Cobras & Other Elapids
Viperidae & True Vipers
Rear-Fanged Snakes
Venomoid
Gilas & Beaded Lizards
Spiders & Other Inverts

Hybrids & Intergrades
Pythons
Boas
Colubrids
Venomous

Other
Breeder Loans/Stud Services
Trades
Retail Stores
Wholesale/Commercial Dealers
-----
Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Replies (56)

Jlassiter Jan 24, 2011 12:12 PM

I think we should just leave this stupid classified thing alone and wait until the site gets revamped soon..................It will all change again soon enough.......

Interesting how some of us know exactly where to post their animals on the classifieds.
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

DMong Jan 24, 2011 01:16 PM

Well, after reading lots of this, I really didn't want to get very involved with it, but it seems there is almost no getting around it. Here are my thoughts on all this. It is quite simple to do really.

1) There is absolutely no realistic way kingsnake.com, or anyone else on earth can "police" the lineage of all the snakes out on the market, or look at many of them and be able to tell with any certainty what their exact genetic makeup is anyway. They would need a full-time 24/7 taxonomic panel of people that specialized in the meristics of ALL these types of snakes to even begin to pick-out the fairly obvious examples, and even then there is no way on earth to tell by looks alone on TONS of others, it's just impossible to humanly do.

Are all so-called Hondurans in this hobby pure 100% hondurensis with absolutely zero polyzona, stuarti, or abnorma influence?...absolutely not!,...are all Sinaloan milksnakes pure 100% sinaloae, and no nelsoni influence?....no!. Are all florida kings 100% floridana?.....no!. Are all Eastern chains 100% getula.....no!. Are all Desert kings 100% splendida with zero californiae, or holbrooki influence?....definitely not!. Now since I know all of this to be an absolute bonified fact, and have LOTS of experience in the meristic identification of many of these different types, I can also say with absolute certainty that neither I, nor anybody else on this planet can simply look at certain snakes and tell what the precise subspecific lineage of many of these snakes really are. Only the more textbook perfect examples of some of these can you know with any substantial certainty. Other's can even look identical to a pure subspecies, but actually have a very substantial amount of geneflow from other subspecies and you would never know it at all.

Now the categorizing the milksnakes separately was a great idea in my opinion, as well as many of the other changes that were made. Since it is virtually impossible to discern the genetic lineage to any accurate degree of subspecific level with many snakes these days, it would really be best to put all the kings (L.getula) back into one big category like before, but maybe the known man-made crosses could be put just below the other ads there in the same exact page when it is clicked on. This way they would still be in the same exact area and still be well-seen by all. Then all the hassle is off of KS and as always for decades pior just like any show or whatever.......simply "BUYER BEWARE", and life goes on....simple as that.

As it is now though, I think "pandora's box" is simply left wide open for far too much red tape and major controversy.

I have been deeply involved with owning and studying coutless thousands of snakes since 1967, now if I cannot tell what the lineages of many milksnakes, kingsnakes, ratsnakes, and many others are in this hobby, I'ts togh to imagine how anyone else can. Sure, some things are quite obvious, and many I and many other folks can usually pick-out many non-pure subspecies fairly quickly, but it all depends on the percentages of what types of subspecies produced any given animal as to how easy it is to distinguish it from a true-blue genuine subspecies. Many snakes are not even 50-50 crosses either, and this adds further to the problem. Then add to that some individual variation, etc... and it can be enough to make your head spin as to exactly what certain snakes are..LOL!

Anyway, if the kings were put back together, and simply leave the problem of identifying their lineage between the seller and the buyer, it would make everything as easy as pie once again. I just don't see how it can work smoothly without tons of "issues" otherwise.

cheers everyone, ~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

mfoux Jan 24, 2011 01:41 PM

Amen, brother.
-----
---
http://www.mikefoux.com
http://snakerack.blogspot.com

2.6.2 Hondurans (Normal, amel, hypo, anery, ghost)
1.2.0 Pueblans (Normal, hypo)
0.1.0 Corn Bloodred
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.1.0 California King (normal, blue-eyed blond)
0.2.0 Speckled Kings Calcasieu Parish locality
1.1.0 Brooksi Hypo
1.1.0 Goini/Brooks Cross (Blaze and hypo)
1.1.0 San Diego gophers
0.0.1 Texas Rat
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
1.2.1 Leopard Geckos(various morphs)
0.1.0 Wife, Caucasius Mexicana Integrade WC

tspuckler Jan 24, 2011 02:57 PM

Excellent post, Doug. To some extent the buyer needs to take some responsibility. Especially if that buyer is serious about the genetics of their animals. When it comes to keeping snakes as pets, it doesn't matter much. But no one can be the "snake police" and monitor the "albino Pueblans" and "albino Sinaloans" and the many, many other misrepresented snakes regularly posted in the KS.com classifieds.

I do think there's a number of buyers and sellers who simply don't care what they have (as long as it has a cool name) and as much as it might aggravate "purists," it's always going to be that way. And there will always be uneducated purchasers who will believe whatever the seller says - hook, line and sinker.

There's no amount of reshuffling of the classifieds that's ever going to change that.

Tim

DMong Jan 24, 2011 03:35 PM

.
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Tony D Jan 24, 2011 03:46 PM

I agree with what you guys have said however I think everyone here is looking at this wrong. Organization needs to facilitate the buyers not the sellers. Its the buyers experience that matters. If it sucks they don't buy, sellers loose and KS looses. If buys like the experience they buy more, sellers keep signing back up, KS meets its financial objectives and everyone wins.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

pyromaniac Jan 24, 2011 03:51 PM

Why was this changed in the first place? Were sellers not selling enough snakes? Were buyers too overwhelmed with the process of shopping?
-----
Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

mfoux Jan 24, 2011 04:34 PM

Hey guys, I've never sold anything on Kingsnake, but I've bought several animals that I found on the KS classifieds and spend more time than I should looking at the ads.
From my perspective, as a buyer, the new categories are great.
As far as what goes into those categories, yes, I get annoyed if I see a corn snake in the king snake section, but to me, the post below about the goini crosses...that was a little much. It's still Lampropeltis getula, so when I look for it, I expect it to be in the king snake section. I think maybe there should be a little flexibility and the owners/managers of KS should listen to their customers.
-----
---
http://www.mikefoux.com
http://snakerack.blogspot.com

2.6.2 Hondurans (Normal, amel, hypo, anery, ghost)
1.2.0 Pueblans (Normal, hypo)
0.1.0 Corn Bloodred
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.1.0 California King (normal, blue-eyed blond)
0.2.0 Speckled Kings Calcasieu Parish locality
1.1.0 Brooksi Hypo
1.1.0 Goini/Brooks Cross (Blaze and hypo)
1.1.0 San Diego gophers
0.0.1 Texas Rat
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
1.2.1 Leopard Geckos(various morphs)
0.1.0 Wife, Caucasius Mexicana Integrade WC

Tony D Jan 24, 2011 05:56 PM

"From my perspective, as a buyer, the new categories are great."

Bingo!
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

DMong Jan 24, 2011 04:34 PM

I know I never looked at it "all wrong". Because that all gets taken care of automatically if all the kings get put back into one clickable category. Then if a buyer cannot tell the difference between a goini x floridana x getula x californiae cross for themselves, then......oh well!

It's the way it has always been, and nobody can re-invent that wheel.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Tony D Jan 24, 2011 05:53 PM

Not what I was saying.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

pyromaniac Jan 24, 2011 03:42 PM

Anyway, if the kings were put back together, and simply leave the problem of identifying their lineage between the seller and the buyer, it would make everything as easy as pie once again. I just don't see how it can work smoothly without tons of "issues" otherwise.
Excellent points, Doug!

I wanted this little snake just because she was so pretty! ( I had no "evil intentions" to breed her! Heaven forbid! LOL!) The seller was honest about her mixed lineage. Concerning this hybrid vs pure thing, the cat has been out of the bag for decades! LOL!
The heated debate this hybrid vs pure generates you'd think we were talking about miscegenation!
-----
Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

mbrawley Jan 24, 2011 05:17 PM

Wait a minute, BOB. Maybe I read your post wrong, but something you said gave me the impression that maybe the pretty little snake you posted was not "pure", and worse than that...was something "UNPURE". If this is the case I would appreciate it if you would immediately remove it from this forum. You have really provoked my delicate sensibilities. I cannot tolerate even the sight of these types of animals. I'm sure there is another forum intended for pictures of these types of animals. I think there should be a subforum for hybrids (I'm sorry but I don't even like to use the "H" word).

To put it simply, I DON'T LIKE THE UNEXPECTED SURPRISE OF CLICKING ON SOMEONE'S POST THAT IS GOING TO CONTAIN THESE TYPES OF IMAGES. I'm gonna write the KS management a letter. There needs to be some more forum categories.

Thank you for your prompt cooperation and understanding concerning this matter.

mbrawley Jan 24, 2011 06:05 PM

LOL!!! Pretty absurd, huh?!!!! I think we're all big boys (and girls) here. We don't need the classifieds police to help us find the proper category to list our snakes in. Now it's become a spectical of sorts, though. Shoppers are only going to click on the "hybrids, intergrades, and Freaks" category to see what all the talk is about. Someone said it previously, "Hybrids" have a certain stigma attached to the term...right, wrong, or indifferent, these guys trying to sell these snakes are gonna have a hard time, as opposed to before. Afterall, who's gonna intentionally click on "Hybrids and Intergrades". They're doomed. These guys do not even have the hope of someone accidentally clicking on this category since it's not even in the same area. It's way down by stud service. LOL!!!!!!!!!!! By the way, one of my favorite "h-word" is the Pastel King (seriously). A BEAUTIFUL king that I would buy if I could afford one. I saw the AD in the kingsnake listings was removed...I'm guessing it was exiled down to the "retail stores" category or something. What a shame. It's a damn fine snake that newcomers are probably never gonna see now. I personally don't hybridize my snakes, but if someone else wants to, whatever. They have a right to advertise, and sell them...and the "other guy" has the right to "buy", or "pass on it".

My intent here is not to offend anyone on either side of the fence. I love snakes, (mostly colubrids) and specifically kingsnakes. "Pure", "Unpure", "locality specific" whatever - They're all nice. This recent segregation was not neccessary, and it seems to have proven to be more harmful than beneficial...Definitely a hot topic on this forum though. Maybe the whole thing's a prank the KS brass is using to spark a lively debate on this forum. LOL.

bone47 Jan 24, 2011 10:51 PM

Sweet Florida! How old is that one?

Bone

mbrawley Jan 24, 2011 11:36 PM

Thanks Bone. She's about 8 months.

markg Jan 24, 2011 07:12 PM

It is intriguing -

From the seller's perspective, one big section gets all their ads out there visible.

From the buyer's perspective, it is wonderful not seeing 10,000 Honduran ads when looking for Cal kings.

Perhaps leaving the current sections as is a good solution if KS will not worry too much about closely-related or well-established crosses.
-----
Mark

DMong Jan 24, 2011 08:35 PM

Yeah, or even vice-versa if you are looking for specific Hondurans. It works out either way I think.

Now "Carpalls", Angolan x Ball, and the like,...that's a different story of course.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

thomas davis Jan 25, 2011 06:20 AM

>>>I have been deeply involved with owning and studying coutless thousands of snakes since 1967, now if I cannot tell what the lineages of many milksnakes, kingsnakes, ratsnakes, and many others are in this hobby, I'ts togh to imagine how anyone else can.

>countless thousands for 40plus years and if I cannot tell, ahahahaha what a joke, gotta love self proclamation. i are a expert cuz i say so

lame
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

DMong Jan 25, 2011 10:49 AM

Your good buddy FR says that in just about every other post. How come you don't give him a big ration of your usual crap????

I'll tell you why, it's because you are a time-proven forum TROLL!!

While we are on the subject though, I just loved your thoughtless comment in an earlier post you made..HAHAHAAAA!!!! I could have easily commented on how silly it was then, but since you are always about getting your "dung ball" rolling, let's begin, shall we?

"captive pairings produce manmade snakes IE = hybrids/intergrades"

Wrong again "Einstein", but of course many of your captive pairings certainly do produce hybrids/intergrades.

See, if someone starts out with say for example a true Outer Banks pairing, or anything else for that matter, please explain to all of us how the offspring would then suddenly become something other than man-made Outer Banks kings (sticticeps). But even better yet suddenly turn into hybrids or intergrades..LOL!.

You cannot start out with a known pair of any true subspecies and then they just "magically" become hybrid/intergrade offspring. Anyone can plainly see that doesn't make even a tiny bit of sense!.......well, almost anyone..LOL!!

We all see that sort of lame "justification" all the time

By your ridiculous statement, people should also be able to melt junk metals into pure gold. Maybe that is sort of what you are always attempting to do by crossing your snakes too, a form of "serpent alchemy"..LOL!. In the end though, just like back in the dark ages, you are left with a pile of worthless molten metal(i.e. snakes).

Here's how it works Tommy......genuine subspecies in,...genuine subspecies out,....and by the same process,...intergrade/hybrid in,....intergrade/hybrid out.

See how that works genius???, come back and try again when you finally figure this very simple process of out..........

Yeah, I know, obviously you never will if you haven't already..LMFAO!!!..

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

thomas davis Jan 25, 2011 11:57 AM

dugg if your gonna split hairs and EVERYONE knows how much of a SPLITTER you truly are. you have to acknowledge if it wasnt made in nature it NOT NATURAL no matter how much you want it to be. captive pairings are NOT natural. wether its similiar or same ssp. within the same range or completely differant genus doesnt matter THEY ARE NOT NATURAL.
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

DMong Jan 25, 2011 12:20 PM

Where in ANY of what I posted do you see me say the pairings were/would be "NATURAL"?????????. I said they would be the SAME SUBSPECIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!and will ALWAYS be the same SUBSPECIES unless someone like YOU throws a different species/subspecies of snake into the mix!!!!!!!!!

For Chrissakes man!!!,....WAKE THE HELL UP!!!! They would BOTH be the very same SUBSPECIES, but it does NOT mean they are "natural" pairings!!. Even 20 years LATER they would still be offspring from the SAME SUBSPECIES..even though they were captive-bred. Nothing "magically" transforms them into "hybrid/intergrades".

Get off of this "natural/un-natural" kick of yours dude! when nobody is implying it would be a freakin natural pairing!!!. But the SUBSPECIES they started out as never CHANGES!!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

pyromaniac Jan 25, 2011 12:38 PM


Could no longer deal with the stress of the unending debate...
-----
Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

DMong Jan 25, 2011 01:10 PM

I hear ya man..LOL!!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

thomas davis Jan 25, 2011 01:47 PM

>>>But the SUBSPECIES they started out as never CHANGES!!

yeah ok dug if you had ever bred ANY snakes you would indeed know and acknowledge that they do change ALOT, if you wanna call them pure and that that somehow makes them superior to ANY OTHER CBB SNAKE then thats just your ignorance.
my point is ALL captive pairings are UNNATURAL producing unnatural snakes IE hybrids/crosses/intergrades whatever you wanna call them they aint natural and never will be and are absolutely NO DIFFERANT than ANY OTHER CBB SNAKE!!!
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

DMong Jan 25, 2011 02:31 PM

DUDE!!, of COURSE the SNAKES CHANGE!!, but the SUBSPECIES does NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's a great little quote from your very OWN website Thomass!,...READ IT BUD!!

"Albino Northern Pines! true Northerns! from cherryville farms stock"

Just simply change all that to "albino hybrid/intergrades"..LMAO!!

Huh???, what's wrong?.......oh yeah, I forgot!,...that only applies to me and MY SNAKES!..HAHAHAAAH!!

You are really something bud!

So what you are saying is, by this time tomorrow, all of your so-called subspecies listed will be changed to "hybrid/intergrades, right?..LMMFAO!!

Just ignore any of my future posts, because that's exactly what I always do with yours!. But don't forget to change those fancy title names on your snakes!..LMAO!!

bye-bye now!

~Doug

Image
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

thomas davis Jan 25, 2011 03:28 PM

talk about A DIM BULB...

>>>Here's a great little quote from your very OWN website Thomass!,...READ IT BUD!!
"Albino Northern Pines! true Northerns! from cherryville farms stock"
Just simply change all that to "albino hybrid/intergrades"..LMAO!!

>they are listed as what they are dug. john cherry worked with these snakes for YEARS mine are descended from his line. do i use the word pure? hmmm NO! i am happy to say they are fine representations of albino n.pinesnakes but pure, no, pure snakes are wild snakes.

>>>Huh???, what's wrong?.......oh yeah, I forgot!,...that only applies to me and MY SNAKES!..HAHAHAAAH!!

>did you forget your meds this mornin?

>>>So what you are saying is, by this time tomorrow, all of your so-called subspecies listed will be changed to "hybrid/intergrades, right?..LMMFAO!!

>why would i change anything dug? i happily explain my veiws to anyone, i have nothing to hide.

>>>Just ignore any of my future posts, because that's exactly what I always do with yours!. But don't forget to change those fancy title names on your snakes!..LMAO!!
bye-bye now!

>seek help, you need it.
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Aaron Jan 25, 2011 10:20 PM

"my point is ALL captive pairings are UNNATURAL producing unnatural snakes IE hybrids/crosses/intergrades whatever you wanna call them they aint natural and never will be and are absolutely NO DIFFERANT than ANY OTHER CBB SNAKE!!!"

I disagree that just because the breeding and maybe a few generations of human selection can cause all that much change. If the two animals you start with could have met, or even if just their offspring could have met, a few generations of human selection is not going to affect them very much. You may change the pattern a little bit but you are not going to change the esential makeup of them very much. Tree dwellers are still going to be tree dwellers, dirunal baskers are still going to be diurinal baskers, etc., etc.

For each of those things you listed above, captive born subspecies, hybrids, intergrades, man-made intergrades, there are very different degrees of the changes that can take place. As far as captive born subspecies merely putting the captive born label on them carries the connotation that some small level of change may have taken place. Putting the label hybrid in front of hybrid snakes and saying what species and/or subspecies were used also carries a connotation of change, but to a different and much greater degree.

Also remember, all hybrids started with "pure" species/subspecies so purity is no less relevant a concept for hybrids as it is for so called pure captive born subspecies. If your cornsnake x cal king is really a cornsnake/emory's x cal/floridana then even a hybrid buyer who is looking for hybrids may be just as dissapointed with the future breeding results as a person seeking to buy a pure cornsnake is when they find out they've purchased a cornsnake x emory's.
-----
www.hcu-tx.org/

thomas davis Jan 25, 2011 11:09 PM

howdy Aaron...

>>>I disagree that just because the breeding and maybe a few generations of human selection can cause all that much change. If the two animals you start with could have met, or even if just their offspring could have met, a few generations of human selection is not going to affect them very much. You may change the pattern a little bit but you are not going to change the esential makeup of them very much. Tree dwellers are still going to be tree dwellers, dirunal baskers are still going to be diurinal baskers, etc., etc.

>yes im just saying they are not natural, and change IS change whats created is NOT natural and cannot be definitively defined as pure, so i'll agree to disagree

>>>For each of those things you listed above, captive born subspecies, hybrids, intergrades, man-made intergrades, there are very different degrees of the changes that can take place. As far as captive born subspecies merely putting the captive born label on them carries the connotation that some small level of change may have taken place. Putting the label hybrid in front of hybrid snakes and saying what species and/or subspecies were used also carries a connotation of change, but to a different and much greater degree.

>yes id go so far as to say applying captive born and bred F2 etc that a level of change HAS taken place, connotations aside same ssp. or hybrid no differance.

>>>Also remember, all hybrids started with "pure" species/subspecies so purity is no less relevant a concept for hybrids as it is for so called pure captive born subspecies. If your cornsnake x cal king is really a cornsnake/emory's x cal/floridana then even a hybrid buyer who is looking for hybrids may be just as dissapointed with the future breeding results as a person seeking to buy a pure cornsnake is when they find out they've purchased a cornsnake x emory's.

>see theres that word again i disagree with it strongly. ALL lineages hybrid or otherwise should be kept track of especially for breeding/breeders. but if lil douggy gets hurt cuz his pure corn turned out to be a cornXemory cross well im sorry but lil douggy shoulda either went to a breeder and traced lineages on his animals or went and captured some himself, if he is THAT possesed with captive snake purity.
,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Bluerosy Jan 25, 2011 04:27 PM

This is kinda like the anery vs axanthic debate in Florida kings. When does red trun into ornage and then into yellow.. When does a snake become something else besides just a snake?

With other species of animals (take an elepahnt for example) they are still elephants. Yet different ranges causes different effects (dry, heat, cold, food supply etc)

Selective pairings are unatural because they turn into something else in a box that nature would never reproduce. Natural selection is what makes them pure. Just look at thos beautiful golden 'brooksi' you have. Now look at nomenclatures newest revisions on all the eastrn getula.

The whole subspecies gamet is just a way for "man" to name the animals. Which is also changing all the time. So naming them does not make them pure. Nor is man always orrect otherwise there would not be countless revisions in taxonomy. IMO the taxonimists and 'herpetoculturists are our real enemy in herpetoculture.

I think the closest thing we can do is get locality specific animals and breed them. But even then divides such as roads, deveolpment, habitat and ALSO natural selection make them questionable as far as locality specific.

It is all splitting hairs. Both your arguments are correct and each has its merits. So can we all just get along and instead worry about government imposing new laws and regulations? I wish these discussinons would turn more about governrment and how we can protect our hobby and ourselves..

A house that is divided will fall.

So does anyone have any problem with Florida kings being eastern kings now? How do you think that effects me here in GA? ....my point is herpetologists and herpetocultursts are at odds with each other. They don't care for what we are doing. And it is the herpetologists that don't care about us. So why do we discuss what they are doing?
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

daveb Jan 25, 2011 05:57 PM

>>So does anyone have any problem with Florida kings being eastern kings now?

sorry for living under a rock, but did this reclassification really happen?
-----
odelay odelay odelay hee hoooo...
heeeeya huhhhh!
~Back in the saddle (Aerosmith)

foxturtle Jan 25, 2011 08:32 PM

Yes it did.

http://cnah.org/pdf_files/1302.pdf

http://cnah.org/pdf_files/1249.pdf

DMong Jan 25, 2011 07:02 PM

Yes, Rainer, I totally understand all that you are saying, and I certainly think that you know I am fully aware of all that already. Yes, the word "purity" is all totally relative of course, but as "Troll Boy" stated to me in his slandering initial post, breeding two subspecies does NOT instantly create hybrid/intergrades, that is absolutely insane!. What it creates are more of the same subspecies you started with, only they are a bit different from the selectively-bred equation, as opposed to meeting up in their natural environment, nothing more, nothing less.

If Davis knew more about what different terms actally meant, and used them, maybe he could type some thoughts that were far more accurate. How the heck can two subspecific-type snakes breed together, then instantly become hybrids or intergrades?. They don't, and we both already know that. That is my only point here.

This whole thread got twisted around when Davis stuck his nose in just to troll and mock what I said much earlier anyway. I have no intent on trying to explain all this basic stuff to anyone else but Davis, and that is only because he decided to pop in out of nowhere and tell me how much I don't know about all this. I am certain it's the other way around.

His comment that "all captive produced snakes are hybrid/intergrades" is simply ridiculous, and we all know that.

Anyway, yes, I understand what you mentioned there Rainer.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

thomas davis Jan 25, 2011 08:40 PM

>>>His comment that "all captive produced snakes are hybrid/intergrades" is simply ridiculous, and we all know that.

>i NEVER made that comment dong. show me or anyone where I made that comment. completely clueless
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

foxturtle Jan 25, 2011 09:48 PM

We all know what we produce in captivity is unnatural, and at best emulates nature.

There's a pretty much agreed upon standard for what passes as "pure" in this hobby.

Most of us don't view this as a black and white standard either. Breeding two corn snakes collected from under the same board is more natural (closer to nature) than breeding corn snakes collected 500 miles apart. Most can see this distinction and can still understand that the product of both breedings can still be called "pure" corn snakes.

mbrawley Jan 25, 2011 11:02 PM

A couple other things I'm glad to have clarification on are a few little known facts, regarding Doug also working as a male nurse at an insane asylum and Thomas commonly being referred to (by his friends of course) as a dung-ball rolling troll whom reportedly lives beneath a bridge somewhere.

Gentlemen, this has been a most entertaining day on this forum. I must say, thanks to my blackberry, I was able to follow the drama in real time, as it unfolded. The suspense, the comedic relief, the action, the dung-slinging and most of all, the romance...or let's call it what we all know it really is - the obvious and steaming sexual tension between the two of you. For selfish reasons I loved every minute of it. Thank you both. I laughed my rear off all day. God knows I need it sometimes during the work week.

All joking aside though, and to be PC, I hope you guys can eventually come to terms, and agree to civilly disagree, and maybe enjoy a cold one, with two straws, together sometime at a 2011 reptile expo...or... just keep on doing what you've been doing all day. LOL!!!! The peanut gallery loves it I'm sure.

Good luck to both of you; hope you guys can work through it!

By the way, Thomas, Doug's more righter than you on this whole topic...hahaha!!!

thomas davis Jan 25, 2011 11:16 PM

>>>By the way, Thomas, Doug's more righter than you on this whole topic...hahaha!!!

yeah well thanks, i guess?!?!? im more of a lefter than a righter anyway opinions are like sphincters we all have one and they all stink!
,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

mbrawley Jan 25, 2011 11:20 PM

True 'dat! LOL!!! I think we can ALL agree on that.

Bluerosy Jan 25, 2011 11:52 PM

Well i agree with brawley. It has been entertaining!

LOL!

-----
www.Bluerosy.com

mbrawley Jan 26, 2011 12:00 AM

Hello my fiend.

But let's get down to business...I'm inclined to say "what a nice looking snake you've posted". But before I do, I need to ask, is it pure or worse yet, unpure? Hahhahaha!!!!

Hope all's well with you brother. God Bless you and Take care!

foxturtle Jan 26, 2011 01:42 AM

That its a pure Jurassic Milk!

mbrawley Jan 26, 2011 02:07 AM

Foxturtle, what are you still doing up? What's the matter, can't sleep, like me? My wife is asleep, snoring away next to me. Even my dog is snoring. It sounds like I'm sleeping next to a bear.

I lay here, close my eyes but I see trolls and dung beetles in my mind for some reason...and unpure hybridized intergraded man-made snakes. In another hour or so, if I don't go to sleep, I'm gonna go look at the ball python forum for a few minutes...that should do the trick.

Well I'm gonna get back to this nightmare and try to sleep...have a good night! Tomorrow's a new day and its only a few hours away.

TTYL!!!!

markg Jan 26, 2011 01:35 PM

I would spend my hard-earned money on that. Won't care if it has every genus and species under the sun in it. Awesome. And I'd sell its offspring as pure captive-manipulated Squamata.
-----
Mark

jwmetz Jan 27, 2011 06:13 PM

Don't stress out Doug. There are some serious intelect wanna be's here. You make absolute sense and I always appreciate your posts.Thomass is obviously a moron and loves to "think" he knows what he is talking about. It's sad really!

Thanks

thomas davis Jan 25, 2011 08:20 PM

>>>Selective pairings are unatural because they turn into something else in a box that nature would never reproduce. Natural selection is what makes them pure.

>thats all i was saying...
as for a house divided yep, absolutely,wholly and completely correct but i wouldnt compare herptoculture to a house, its more like an asylum with many many wards, DGong is like nurse hatchett keepin everyone inline
,,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

DMong Jan 25, 2011 08:31 PM

"DGong is like nurse hatchett keepin everyone inline"

Not everyone, just you "thumbass davis"........

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Bluerosy Jan 25, 2011 08:40 PM
thomas davis Jan 25, 2011 08:44 PM

Ddong IS nurse Hatchett!!!
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Bigtattoo Jan 24, 2011 05:07 PM

I have no dog in this fight and my opinions regarding hybrids/intergrades/man made crosses don't matter. This is about being able to sell you snakes in the classifieds.

Zenny was singled out due to posting a Goini/Brooksi in the kingsnake section and was moved involuntarily into the hybrids section. Where most likely his ad will go unviewed and lessen his likelihood of selling his stock.

Why were only kingsnake hybrids singled out? I just perused the cornsnake varieties. Imagine my surprise to see ads for creamsicle corns in there. It's a well known fact that they are a cross between corns P.g. guttatta and emoryi P.g. emoryi making it a far better candidate for moving to the hybrid section. Worse the ad I looked at the seller listed it as E.g.guttata with no mention of the emoryi influence in creating this "morph."

I understand and agree with Zenny's frustration and chagrin at his ad being moved. He is selling a kingsnake and it should be allowed to be listed under kingsnakes.

I for one am a big boy and as long as I deal with breeders/dealers I trust to give me information as accurately as they possibly can regarding the lineage/origins of the animals I'm considering purchasing I'm a happy camper. If I'm not interested in a goini/brooksi or a L. g. getula x L. g. californiae I can skip over those ads very easily.

I spend time on these forums not only for educational/entertainment and a camaraderie with fellow herpers but to also find those breeders/dealers I can trust to be as honest as they can be. I'm not a hybrid/man made "intergrade" kind of guy. I know if I buy from Doug, John, Jorge or Shannon that they will give me to the best of their knowledge accurate data on the origins of my animals.

If I was a hybrid/intergrade enthusiast I feel Zenny and Tom D. would also be straightforward and honest as to what I was interested in and how it came to be.

I left KS about 8 years ago and back then it was the same arguments between the "purists" and "hyrbrids" The worst was and to me still is the graybanders with the generic/locality battle. I totally understand why one would chose purity over hybrids or vice versa. I also understand the locality/generic with the graybands. But isn't it about time we all stop crapping in each other's hats over this? We are all reptile enthusiasts and we have those that aren't trying to put limits/regulations and in some cases completely banning on something we all enjoy greatly. While we're busy arguing over these differences of opinions they are actively acting on their agendas. Why don't we get together as a group and crap in their hats instead?

As for Jeff B. and his decision to handle it the way he desires says volumes about Jeff.

>>Big T puts his soap box away and puts his flamesuit on.
-----
BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
0.3 P. c. sayi Kingsville X Stillwater red bulls
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 D. corais Yellowtail Cribos
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

varanid Jan 24, 2011 05:42 PM

but..I have to crap into a hat my toilet is broken. And I'd rather it be someone else's hat

If they're going to be strict about this, then it needs to be across types; any "root beer" or creamcicle or whatever needs to be put into hybrids too.
-----
We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

bone47 Jan 24, 2011 11:16 PM

OMG! Can this topic die already! The buyers of the animals are the true customers. All you breeders are serving us the "Buyers". I as a buyer I like the way the classifieds are set-up now. ZF and some others would like to change that back to something I don't prefer? Doesn't that alienate part of his customer base and make my shopping experience less enjoyable? Breeders you are not Jeff B's customers your are his tenants. You rent space to sell your wares to us the true customer. Jeff's main goal is to appease the buyers and make our shopping and learning experience easy and enjoyable. The breeders should have that mindset as well. All you breeders who are crying to Jeff that "the customer is always right" seem to not realize they aren't a customer at all. That being said and for those of you who follow "the customer is always right" mantra then I say as a customer I love the way the classifieds are now and I'm right.....right?

Bone

Bluerosy Jan 25, 2011 07:03 AM

The buyers of the animals are the true customers

Th buyers don't help to support the site.

But I agree that JeffB can do WHATEVER he wants to do. It is his site and he is attentive enough to let this rambling go on.

Other sites that I go to that are not snakes related the owner of the site makes the rules in the classifieds and things get moved and if sellers don't comply after the first time they simply get bannned.

also anyone complaining on a sub foruum like this one gets banned.

I look at it this way. It is his house and would we allow the same thing in our own living room?
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

pyromaniac Jan 25, 2011 08:37 AM

COLUBRIDS
Kingsnakes
Milk Snakes
Mexicana Complex Kings
Gray-Banded Kingsnakes
Mountain Kingsnakes
New World Rat Snakes
Old World Rat Snakes
Corn Snake Varieties
Bull, Pine, & Gopher Snakes
Hognose Snakes
Garter & Water Snakes
Other Colubrid Snakes
Hybrid & Intergrade Colubrids

Jeff has now put the Hybrid and Intergrade in the "Colubrids" listing instead of in the "Other" listing. Hopefully that will appease the folks who were concerned.
-----
Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

kingsnake1 Jan 25, 2011 09:32 AM

Excellent.....I think that helps alot. Thanks Jeff.
-----
Greg Jackson

Bluerosy Jan 25, 2011 10:57 AM

Thank you Jeff!
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

bone47 Jan 25, 2011 06:01 PM

Actually bluerosy the buyers do support the site. If they didnt come here and purchase snakes from the breeders then the site wouldnt exist.

Bone

Site Tools