Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello everyone. I do apologize if this question is "stupid" or redundant, but I couldn't find any real answers online. I also tried searching the archives with no luck. So here goes:

Is it extremely difficult to produce CB Savannahs? They are imported so readily but I never see any pictures or hear any stories of successful breedings. As one of the most popularly owned species of monitor (in the wrong hands more often than not, no doubt, since they are cheap and available), why aren't there more captive born lizards offered?

Pardon my ignorance, I'm relatively new to monitors so I honestly have no clue.

It is not cost effecient. $15.00 USD for a WC baby sav monitor. CBB savs can't compete with that price. Unless they charge say hundreds of dollars for them. Monitors are much more expensive to keep then say ball pythons. So breeding them takes alot of space, elecrtricty, time etc.

Some people claim that they are not bred in captivity because they are hard to breed in captivity..... I don't personally believe that they would be any harder to breed then say ackies or black throats. If one can breed them, they should be able to breed savs. However I'm not saying its easy to breed any species of monitor.

I get what you're saying from a commercial standpoint, but what about hobby breeders? People who keep the lizards for no other reason than to share a home with them, with the offspring being a byproduct of healthy, thriving animals. There has to be some joy in the accomplishment and yet I have found absolutely no images of copulating pairs or hatching clutches.

Not a fan of this music but there you go LOL

I just can't buy that argument about the price of the imported ones vs the cost of producing the captives. What about the other popular argument, they are not so colorful and fun to keep for the advanced varanids breeders, c'mon... I think the exanthematicus is still a challenge, maybe one of the most dificult lizard to work with, and that's the only reason they are not succesfully breed in captivity (except few accidental clutches here and there)

Again, forgive my ignorance. I truly just want to learn. Why are they considered difficult to work with?

Also, I've seen some incredible color variations in pictures of Savs and I think they have a ton of potential for purposed breeding (not that I really believe in breeding an animal strictly for aesthetic reasons).

you will notice that the people that say they are difficult to breed,don't breed any of the other medium size monitors.Ravi one of the authors of The Savannah Monitor Lizard bred them-it's all about husbandry and finding a 'compatible' pair.after breeding them Ravi quit,other than the satisfaction it's alot of work as in breeding any other medium to large monitor and you have to compete like Elidog says with the imports.JoOaks just apply husbandry by the sucessful and you'll breed them.people who breed the gouldi type monitors and the blackthroats do so because that's their preference the fact you get more return on captive breds is just a distraction-as breeding is more because of a love of monitors than the fiscal part of it-

My guess is because there is not a sence of urgency, like there is with the ackies. With ackies once they are gone in captivity they are gone. There is no legal way to get WC or imported ones here.

>>I just can't buy that argument about the price of the
>>imported ones vs the cost of producing the captives. What
>>about the other popular argument, they are not so colorful
>>and fun to keep for the advanced varanids breeders,

There is something to be said for this. Having kept savannas, argus, and flavies, I have to say that the argus and flavis are more fun than the savannas. So, if I am going to dedicate limited space, time, and money to a new group of medium-sized monitors I am going to go with argus or flavis. Others may have different ideas of what makes a lizard fun, though.

Color in monitors is somewhat over-rated, I think. Timors are absolutely beautiful lizards, but they spend all their time hiding so you never see them. This makes them not fun compared to drab monitors that you can watch do stuff.

>>c'mon... I think the exanthematicus is still a challenge,
>>maybe one of the most dificult lizard to work with, and
>>that's the only reason they are not succesfully breed in
>>captivity (except few accidental clutches here and there)

I don't see savannas being any more of a challenge than any other mid-sized monitor. The reason we don't see more hobbyist breeding is that most people who get savannas get them because they only cost $50 at PetSmart and they don't realize how much work and expense it is to keep a large lizard like this in a manner that will let it thrive, and so most savannas languish in too dry too cold too small enclosures. For example, Niles are the other monitor that is readily available for cheap and purchased in large numbers, and I know of more breeding of savannas than of Niles. Certainly, Niles are hardy and have a fairly typical ecology for a large varanid, so since savannas are apparently easier to breed than Niles they can't be that much of a challenge compared to other monitors.

Luke

Interesting. I love the cheesy music. Sort of like soft core lizard porn.

>>I get what you're saying from a commercial standpoint, but
>>what about hobby breeders? People who keep the lizards for
>>no other reason than to share a home with them, with the
>>offspring being a byproduct of healthy, thriving animals.
>>There has to be some joy in the accomplishment and yet I
>>have found absolutely no images of copulating pairs or
>>hatching clutches.

There has been some limited hobbyist breeding of savanna monitors. It is not yet commonplace. The successful reports I have seen make savanna husbandry and breeding no different from that of other mid-sized monitor lizards. If you are interested in this subject, I highly recommend the book on savanna monitors by Bennett and Thakordyal. Ravi Thakordyal has bred his savannas and he describes the care and setup he used.

Luke

I'll try breeding some savs. I just gotta get a female or two. The one I thought was a female turned out to be male.... According to my vet.

>>I'll try breeding some savs. I just gotta get a female or
>>two. The one I thought was a female turned out to be
>>male.... According to my vet.

I wish you the best of luck. If you succeed, let us know.

Luke

Ravi Thakordyal has bred his savannahs just once if I'm not mistaken, not what we call a succes, but you're right his and Benetts book is really good, maybe the first book where the exanthematicus specialised diet is described. The failure in captive breeding has something to do with that specialised diet, or maybe not, some will argue with that, for some people the exclusive rodent diet is the best choice for every lizard, some people will tell you rodents can work even on green iguanas if you offer a 10 000 000 °F basking spot.

When are you going to start breeding savannah monitors on this special diet? Nobody I know of feeds rodents to iguanas either by the way.

breeding them once is a success-not being able to get rid of the offspring for the work involved in breeding them is called a "deterent" and this shouldn't take away from their accomplishment or be some judgement about them.from being on these forums there only seems to be a handful of keepers who breed the larger monitors more than once,they are the exception.

All monitors are easy to breed, but all monitors are a whole lot of work, and unless you live in a place like S.Fla. where you can keep them from using electicity, the cost is far to high. For all monitors

Savs are a normal monitor, but they are imported for under $5 each as captive hatched/farm raised. Which they are not. But still thats what they are called.

The cost of producing a single baby, is well, NOT EVEN CLOSE. By a long shot. Insect feeders such as ackies cost over $50 each when producing numbers. When only a clutch here and there are produced, each baby actually costs several hundred to produce.

So every once in a while someone will give it a go and because a few people would say, I will pay more for a real captive hatched, but after going through all the work, they sell a couple for more more and cannot sell the others.

That really takes away from the FUN of keeping and breeding. As each mouth has to be fed and no one will take them.

Consider, if you want a Sav, you can easily get them for FREE.

Back to the work, the hard part is responsibility, you have to be there at the right time, or all the work is for nothing.

Consider, we have hobbies because they are REWARDING. When it becomes lots of responsibility and little in the way of rewards, why do it.

For instance, you can take the same work and breed ackies, and gain some reward, at least help pay the high cost of keeping. Or even Blackthroats, or any species thats not imported like Savs. I hope this helps

One more thing, as a monitor breeder, after a while you keep the species that are FUN. Savs, not so much fun.

Don't get me wrong, breeding them is not the same as you keeping one for fun. Breeding means pairing them up, which often is not fun. Or just having a group, in which one is fun, and the rest are NOT FUN. etc etc etc. To breed monitors means you have a colony, not one fun one.

The reason I started this whole post was because I do have a single Sav. Once I build her(?) final enclosure, which I hope to be a quite large walk-in enclosure in my basement with multiple options for basking and shelter, I'd like to try introducing another of the opposite sex. I don't really care if they breed, I just like Savs. But, if they do end up being a compatible pair, I wouldn't mind being educated and prepared. What are some good resources for information on breeding these guys?

Also, I know this question is asinine, but what methods are there for sexing Savannahs? How do reptile vets do it?

Your best bet is Right here. The problems with monitors and it doesn't matter what kind is a bit different then other reptiles. Which is why you do not see everyone having success.

They are behavioral, that is, behavior is more important then conditions. With many reptiles you can follow a care sheet and expect success. You may have to make a couple of decisions.

With varanids, You set up the enclosure PERFECTLY, and you as the keeper become a key player if what kind of success you will recieve.

Its kinda interactive reptile keeping.

From your reply, you sort of expect something, you do this and they do this or that. Hmmmmmmmmmm not the case with varanids.

First off, varanids are egg laying machines. You feed them, and they throw eggs all over the place, but sadly they die doing that if you do not GET IT RIGHT. They also DIE getting them to pair up.

The common practice and it leads to a common result is, I will get one and if it does good, I will pair it up. Hmmmmmmmmmm That is the exact wrong way to do this. THESE ANIMALS ARE BEHAVIORAL. That is, they form bonds with their mates, not just screw them. I say it that way on purpose, thats not what they do, and people expect them to just copulate.

Well monitors are a bit like torts, they copulate, EVERYTHING, other males, non reproductive females, water bowls, sticks. YOU!

But do not fertilize everything.

So, its a series of behaviors that lead to success. Not put A in with B. Well to be honest, you can get lucky and have that work, but not often and not for long. Which is why you see, one clutch wonders.

With a working pair, you can see many many many clutches, Our record for one female is over 80 clutches in her lifetime.

But, you must have a working pair, not just one screwing the other. Again I say it that way, because what usually ends up is, one normally gets screwed and dies.

Males attend the female, they protect the female, they can and do help dig and prepare a nest, they also guard the nest while shes laying and afterwards. And do it over and over.

How much they do is based on how well they bond. So you can see all of that and more, or none. I have pics of all of that.

The problem is, varanids require space, in that space, you must include areas to support all these things. Which is sort of impossible. So you have to change the cage to fit what they are doing. Or move them to different cages. See, it really does envolve you the keeper.

Most folks that breed reptiles, want to put them in a box and then they are done. Ain't going to happen with varanids.

Like with anything difficult, once you see success, its very rewarding. But its work. Sadly, most folks do not want to work.

Which leads to this, most snake keepers like snakes over other animals, because they are NOT WORK. Sadly, snake keepers often suck at varanids. So if you like work and like great rewards, then go for it.

But your approach would better be served by keeping your sav as a pet, it looks female by the way. And getting babies and raising them together. They then naturally form bonds. Or you can get lucky and find a male that will not abuse her. Sounds familiar to humans huh.

I do recomend, do it as soon as you can. The older they get, the less they are good canidates for pairing up. again like humans. I am serious, if you have any intentions about breeding them, get them grouped up NOW.

About sexing them, once they are mature, they are easy, but when immature. A flip of a coin is better then any vet. Vets suck by the way(at that)

So I will end this with a tag line I use on another forum.

Well, I am going to go get drunk and sex monitors for fun. Why do I say that? cause it doesn't matter what we say, they know how to figure it out..

So off I go, sexing monitors for fun, and getting drunk.

Its funny you mention getting drunk and sexing monitors. I had one reptile vet tell me a monitor was a female. I took that same lizard to a DIFFERENT vet a year later and he told me it was most likely a male. Neither of the vets were drunk at the time.

I read your post, in its entirety, multiple times. I appreciate your help, so I am going to be a pain in the ass and further pick your brain.

My brain would like clarification on a couple of things:

"First off, varanids are egg laying machines. You feed them, and they throw eggs all over the place, but sadly they die doing that if you do not GET IT RIGHT. They also DIE getting them to pair up."

What do you mean by this? Do you mean by not providing enough calcium in the diet (or Vitamin D for it's absorption) for laying females? Or something else entirely? By pairing up, I can only assume you mean incompatible animals killing one another..?

"How much they do is based on how well they bond. So you can see all of that and more, or none. I have pics of all of that."

So, if I do wish to introduce another Sav, how would you suggest one do it? I had no intention of simply throwing one in to see what would happen, yet I'm not sure how to actually go about it. With that said, I will see what options I have at the upcoming show with hatchlings in mind.

"The problem is, varanids require space, in that space, you must include areas to support all these things. Which is sort of impossible. So you have to change the cage to fit what they are doing. Or move them to different cages. See, it really does envolve you the keeper."

When you say "these things," what do you mean? What must one or multiple cages provide in order to support them?

I ask all these questions because I hate the idea of my monitor sitting in a box full of dirt, only ever being able to eat, bask, sleep, and burrow. We're working on target training using a marker signal, which helps utilize her mind, but surely there are other things she can do, like interacting with a bonded cagemate. Maybe I'm too idealistic. I just want her to live an enriched life, performing as many of her natural behaviors as possible.

I have two juvenile monitors housed together, one melinus one peach throat. My plan is to keep them together as long as they seem to be getting a long. Of course it would be awesome if they paired up but I am also assuming that having two together that could potentially be both male or female will accept a possible mate later on when there sex is more easily determined. If they happen to turn out to be both of the same sex then I could possibly put another adult whos sex is more easily determined. Im guessing it might make it an easier transition then housing an animal by it self then introducing a third. I would just purcahse more animals now but Im new at this and yes I wish i had started out with ackies which I still plan on getting but for now, I want to get these guys to adult hood and see what happens. There both such beautifull animals and growing freakishly fast. My peach throats gone from ten inches to maybe close to pushing two feed in two months. Does that even sound possible? This is just an eyeball and memory estimation as far as two months. Ill have to really try and figure that out. Also Ill be making a time lapse video of these guys here in the next week, to study there interactions more carefully. They sleep in different areas and some times look a little freaked out when one first sees the other in the start of a new day but bask togeather and hide in the same spot when awake but like I said once there back to there sleeping areas its in different locations. Its funny i think i could set a clock to the peach throats routine. Ill go in my office around the same time and almost always catch the peachthroat deficating in its water bowl at the exact time. Just wish there scedule matched mine I have to stay up late and wake up early to see some of the activities.

Rhendrickson
This should make sexing easier on you.
Mike

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Mike's Monitors!

Thanks will that even give me an idea when they are still juveniles? It will be hard to get a pick like that without disturbing them. ill have to wait for the right opportunity or when I transfer them to there new enclosure

One thing I think alot of people don't realise is their is a very high divorce rate with monitors. As many as 2 out of 4 end up getting divorced. Thankfully the second time around they learn to appreciate their wives better.

Just wondering what people prefer to use for their heat/lighting. I currently have a CHE and a few spot lights that run damn near all day. I'd like to set the non-basking heating elements onto a pulse proportionate thermostat since I constantly forget to turn them off at night. Also, since the enclosure is in my room, if it malfunctions I'll know within a few hours.

There's a herp show in late feb so I'm hoping to catch some deals but I want to know what to look out for. So, what are your preferences for equipment? Relevant info: I live in the US.

Temp guns?
Thermostats?
Bulbs and CHEs?

Thanks for any and all help.

i like the questions you've been asking,there have been many similar discussions else where on monitor compatibility and husbandry.i am new to monitor keeping-i started looking at all the fancy equipment you can get and dreams of naturalistic display-and found that it was all about me.i know this is expanding from your original question on heating and equipment.but you can get what you need from your local hardware store and compatability is not as simple as putting two monitors together of the opposite sex.just to research this opens you up to how interesting monitors are,especially if you give them more choices(larger cage,temps, humidity,hides,social interaction)

oh my, this is going to hurt, Throw away the CHD, or whatever it is, Throw it far, and throw it away, did I say far.

The key to success in any friggin reptile is temperature RANGE, not one temp. Which means your thermostat thing is not required either. I do use many thermostats, but they are used to KILL. that is, if the temps get to high, they cut off the heating elements. Which means no need for pulse or proportional.

With varanids its far more important. They do use a wide range of temps, THEY seem to REQUIRE a wide range of temps. Which is why you throw away that ceramic deal.

Depending on the base temp of your room. If your in it and your not nuts, normal room temps are PERFECT, you know, 68 to 80F. I know, most think 80F is nuts, but thats what it is here.

Then heat the HOT SPOT, up to 150F plus or minus 25F. Surface temps. The hot spot needs to be the SV(snout/vent) length. So at least 18 inches wide for a Sav. Doing that will heat up the rest of the cage. Unless your cage is giant, If its giant, then do two hot spots and all is good. If its really giant or your room is frozen, then add more hot spots. This approach works. Other approaches are like feeding and infant sika pine filled baby food. While its ok, it only takes away from feeding MOMMAS MILK, which is best. So other types of heating is LESS THEN, not better then. You add, subtracting instead of adding.

Monitors require extreme heat, and cool. Like uros, no, more then uros. hahahahahahahahaha

And yes, there are all manner of lite to choose from. The very best are, 45w/50w floods from GE. They do not have the hot center of Phillips(homedepot/lows) A bank of two of these is much much better then one 250 watt stupid thing. If you have a big cage a florescent fixture for your viewing pleasure is Ok, with that, one plant bulb and one blue bulb emitts nice viewing lite. You can turn it off when your not watching.

Of course there is more. Time to sex monitors and drink, hmmmm one leads to the other, I have not figured out which is the horse and which is the cart. Awwwww who cares,

The problem with the enclosure she currently inhabits is that it is long and tall but narrow. She was given to me by another girl who bought her two years ago as a hatchling. She was only 1.5ft head to tail tip and eating [bleep]ty wet dog food as a staple. I thought she was stunted but grew to well over three feet in the few months I've had her. This growth spurt, I did not expect. Now she needs a much larger enclosure.

On the "warm end," I have two basking spots set up, one high, one closer to the substrate. The high basking spot ranges from 154-157 degrees and the lower basking spot ranges from 142-145 degrees. She uses both spots regularly with no apparent preference.

The other side of the tank, however, is too cool without a basking spot. And since I do want her to have a cool side to retreat to (she likes to burrow and sleep on this side), I added a CHE on a thermostat to make the ambient air temp 75-78 versus 65ish. I did experiment with a third basking spot closer to the middle of the cage but it boosted the temps of the other basking areas and she spent more time in her burrows. Now she's utilizing every part of the enclosure.

Poor cage design on my part along with very cold room temps (damn Pennsylvania winters) necessitates the use of a CHE, at least for now.

Defenitly one of the best ever post on heating/lingthing.

I second that, thank you FR !

Some have managed it more by luck than judgement!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmGzUALFYG0
Link

Thank's for the link.
I'm fan of YOUR videos

I'm sure there's more CB out there just not recorded on the net & thank you!

Cool video, reminds me of when my Mexican beaded lizards would hatch, they would pop there heads out of the egg and look around flicking their little tounges, funny thing was you could actually pet them and they were totally relaxed but as soon as they came completly out of the egg shell 2-3 days later they would bite yo in a N.Y. second. They also use to lap up any left over liquid from the egg being there first meal. Wish I would have taped it to.
Good luck with them, Bob

Just better explain my comment as in more luck than judgement, from what i remember the eggs were laid on the soil rather than in a nest site, which suggests the exanthematicus was unhappy with the nest sites available.

I lost my exanthematicus in a similar incident & that was bad judgement on my side. But it was nice to see this CB exanthematicus

I dont think they would be any different then any other species to breed except for the size of the enclosure you would need. If you love that species and are keeping them anyways then the money should be not be a factor but if you are trying to cash in on it I think you will end up in the red. I do know the eggs are pretty easy to hatch, I plucked 3 eggs that were being laid from a giant tub of freshly imported adults at a local importers back in the late 80s. The other monitors in that tub were eating the eggs as fast as the big girl was putting them out. I set the eggs up in a deli cup with moist vermiculite and placed the container in the drawer of our water bed where it was 79-80F. From what I recall it was over 200 days but all 3 hatched. It was pretty cool because way back then there wasnt to many people hatching varanids so I was surprised they hatched. Wish I would have kept them but gave them to a friend of mine.
Bob