Reptile & Amphibian Forums

With all this recent debate I thought I would have some fun and an excuse to post some cool critters I produced.

Out of all these pictures of snakes there are two pictures that are not man made crosses, natural or unatural intergrades... And the real obvious ones are true hybrids.

Can you pick which 2 of the snakes are not any of the above?

Just copy and repost the picture in your reply. Make sure to name what they are as well!

P.S.
The mammal is not included in this. Just snakes!

Okay I will give these two away. They are-INTERGRADE GOINI X fLORIDA

http://www.fototime.com/{842A1FA3-4E6F-4035-B531-7AEBBA5A5ACF}/standardpict/exp=f&modt=39877.5450763426&ssdyn=1/P1016964.JPG[/img]

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www.Bluerosy.com

Here was the pic that was missing from the above post. i didn't match the tags.

Wish they had an edit function!

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www.Bluerosy.com

Wish they had an edit function!
They have a preview function...one just has to do a thorough job of proof reading before the final post.
As for he snakes I have no clue as to what is what; all are very interesting, though!
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Ah, the worst I can be is wrong...

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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

You got one right. Here is a hint...There are two pics of locale specific snakes in the pics.
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www.Bluerosy.com

The glossy was something I have actually seen in the wild, usually people think they are some sort of gopher snake. But the king doesn't look like anything I've seen. Of course that is not in my neck of the woods. Where did you find that?
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

This is a Pueblin Milk x Calif king. The amelanistic gene comes from the calif king.

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www.Bluerosy.com

"The amelanistic gene comes from the calif king"

That's right, because it sure didn't come from something like this known cross counterfeit "amel Pueblan" produced from the stolen Hondo amel gene back before 2006, because this photo is a 2006 produced animal. No matter how hard some might try to portray that these are real, they most definitely aren't.

The seller told this buyer that it was the best "looking" one he created so far, and that it was around 87% genuine Pueblan from back-crossing to the original target subspecies(L.t.campbelli).

Yeah, no doubt these should be showing up on tables right about now for people to be duped into buying them as real-deal amel Pueblans..

Now someone please attempt to tell me that this isn't exactly how it always works in this hobby..LMFAO!!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

What in heavens name is that mammal? That is just adorable, would love to have one as a pet.

Hairless hamster
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www.Bluerosy.com

Hairless snakefood. LOL
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BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
0.3 P. c. sayi Kingsville X Stillwater red bulls
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 D. corais Yellowtail Cribos
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

Thats some bizzzzzareeee stuff you have there. hahahahahahahaha
The glossy.

Frank, Here are a few more more for you.

And just so that everyone knows. THESE are hybrids and NOT locale specific wildcaughts like the spotted eastern king and baby glossys i posted...
HA HA HA HA!

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www.Bluerosy.com

that last snake is awsome. to die for. dang!!!! I am speechless.

21st pic I think...haha
point taken...well....maybe not!Who knows?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Geez, I thought I picked some hybrids and intergrades to make it easy. I am surprised that none of you experts caught both pics of the 2 non-hybrid/Intergrades..

I could have made it a lot harder with some hybrids and intergrades that are MUCH harder to tell.

Like these two. Which one is a hybrid and which is pure?

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www.Bluerosy.com

The bottom pic is the hybrid! I think.lol!
Jeff

Actually the bottom pic is a pure AZ Mtn king in Randy Wrights collection. The top Amel one is a Jurassic hybrid.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I can only make-out the real-deal "Arizona elegans" there. Some of the other's I have a real good idea about, but others I definitely can't.

Lots of Hondo crosses, and some "Imperial" type Pueblan x Cal. kings of different percentages, and I believe one there is a Yellow rat x floridana.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

There are 2 pics of pure local specfic snakes in the bunch.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Nobody got both of them yet.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Okay the 6th one fromn the bottom is I think a Glossy Snake. The pic of in the middle of the King with the spotted neck on your leg is a Eastern King

Bone

okay you got it, but I was posting the results the same time you posted.

Most people got the Glossys. And Mark Kenderline got the eastern king. But nobody else got both.
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www.Bluerosy.com

That Glossy is really cool looking by the way.

Bone

I wonder if anyone gets my point in all this!

WILDCAUGHT EASTERN KING-.

Here is a pic of a wildcaught bullseye pattern eastern king. I think this is in Bian Hubbs book. Just a different pic is used in the book.

And these are captive born Glossy snakes from gravid wildcaught female that i caught in the low desert of calif.

these guiys were cool as heck and ate pinks out of the egg just like a newborn cornsnake would. I am surprised that these are not more prevalent in the hobby. The only ones I see are w/c adults that eat lizards.

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www.Bluerosy.com

"I wonder if anyone gets my point in all this"

ummm, ......no, not really?..LOL!

I thought from the very beginning that king on your leg "could" have very well been an authentic getula from the head shape and patterning on it, and the "V" shape marking on the back of the head/neck. But with only a couple inches of body showing for us to see there, it ain't exactly proof of it being a pure form Eastern getula, or anything else really. Anyway, except for the Glossy, I know the other's certainly were hybrids and/or intergrades.

Anyway, what was your point?

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

"I wonder if anyone gets my point in all this?"

ummm, ......no, not really?..LOL!

I thought from the very beginning that king on your leg "could" have very well been an authentic getula from the head shape and patterning on it, and the "V" shape marking on the back of the head/neck. But with only a couple inches of body showing for us to see there, it ain't exactly proof of it being a pure form Eastern getula, or anything else really. Anyway, except for the Glossy, I know the other's certainly were hybrids and/or intergrades.

yeah sure you say that now, LOL!..Just joking w/ya!

Anyway, what was your point?

Well I think that spotted Eastern king and the Bullseye pattern was used Brian Hubbs KIngsnake book (I am sure your copy is tattered from use), which you frequently read and quote from.
The snakes are the same ones in his book. Just not the same pics. I hooked Hubbs up with those snakes. Since i live in GA I didn't want my name attached to any GA snakes.

(See. I am EVERYWHERE!! HA HA HA !)

....I have experience with breeding and reproducing hybrids and pure stuff as well as locality specific (rosy boas especially) have learned a hell of a lot from them.. One can learn a lot about how genetics work and conclude that most wildcausght snakes evolve from hybrids and intergrades very quickly anyway.

Also a lot of snakes in collections that are accpeted as pure by the hobby are actually hybrids. some of the pioneers back in the early 80's started secretly hybridzing. They sold them as pure along with actualy pure ones. Confusing huh!?

Anyway, I got a bit off track on my rant. But the point is..common snakes are cheap (inespensive) for a reason. If people don't know by looking at them. what makes them valuable? Knowing whats inside? or the actualy history of a snake? Then if so, then why not a long and accurate history on hybrids and multi morphs combos ? At least we can see what the results are
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www.Bluerosy.com

WOW if only every snake buyer could carry a "Pocket Bluerosy" so they dont get screwed into buying a natural pure Snake thats really a Hybrid. That goes Vice Versa as well for those that want a Hybrid and mistakenly buy a Pure Snake instead

Bone

that was great!..HAHAA!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Was your point that breeding Hybrids is reckless because many of them are hard to distinguish? In turn these animals get into breeding lines of known lineages and throw a monkey wrench into the mix. If thats the point then yeah I get it.

Bone

Bone, I was really thinking about saying that very same thing when he asked what his point was..LOL! Because that is the true reality of what really happens over, and over, and over again in the hobby.

Every time someone looks at a deli cup on a vender's table anymore it is just like Rainer's "guess the snake" game he just posted..HAHAAHAA!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

The mixing and matching occurs anyway, whether Bluerosy or I did it or not. As least we know we are doing it and represent the animals as such.

Also, at anytime muchless now, breeders should be very careful as to what they pair up. For instance, breeding snakes just because they are pretty. And that is not about crosses or hybrids.

Most likely over 90% of the folks keeping kings, do not know one species or morph from the other. Its here where the problems started.

Whenever you get an animal that all you have to do is follow a simple recipe, your going to lose control. Toooooooo many people out there.

You see, its not about whether some of you like it, or the few breeders who here who do it or have done it. Its about the mass number of people who do not care, one way or another.

There is actually no denying any of what you said there at all, and I have to totally agree. But It doesn't make what I just mentioned any less true either. The points I was trying to make were exactly what you just mentioned, only worded a bit differently.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

" Most likely over 90% of the folks keeping kings, do not know one species or morph from the other. Its here where the problems started."

Sorry Charlie, but that broad yet uneducated assumption about those who keep kings not knowing one species from another only proves that you yourself like to speak about things you truly know nothing about. Seriously, and do not take this the wrong way, but who are you to assume that even ONE person, who has a collection of kings, doesn't know what they own or know of? Come on!! LOL!!

" Its about the mass number of people who do not care, one way or another. "

EXACTLY!! That is the problem! LOL!!!! You said it, I didn't.

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Genesis 1:1

I think you don't like Hybrids! Am I right?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I dont like them no. Im not militant about it in that I think they should be outlawed. I respect everyones right to do what they please. I just wish more people would think of the consequence of their hybrid breedings. Just look at some of the Brooksi being offered these days. They dont even look like a Brooksi anymore. What happened to the narrow thin crossbars and the high count of crossbars as well? Now many of them have 2-3 scale wide crossbars and a lower count of them. Many will say this is from simply back breeding stock etc...but I say BS Glades Herp has beeen back breeeding their own stock for years and aside from better color the pattern is the exact same on their Kings. Now this may be natural for Floridana to have pattern abberancies but with many outcrossing Goini into Brooksi it raises doubt on the authenticity of a king when they look considerably different. I do like the morphs like the PB's and even the Jellies as they have some traceable history. I used to really dig the Hypos but most look weird now. Needless to say Im very careful about what I buy and who I buy it from.

Bone

bONE,

Recessive traits effect pattern in florida kings.

Just look at the hypos. They all came from W/C stock. The original w/c stock are noprmal high band classic brooks. But the hypos had all these lines and stripes on them with practically no pattern of the original normal parents.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I was just messing with you cause you wear your feelings on your sleeve like I do. I can understand your sentiments. I have mixed feelings on the subject. I think the fact that there are so many questionable snakes actually makes the pure ones shine. I hope there will always be enthusiasts like you and Doug and others to help keep things pure for those who seek them, and to keep a piece of live history available. However I can appreciate pushing the boundaries and thinking outside the box. If you buy from people who are honest then I think you'll be fine. As for the brooks thing, that is so complicated that we will never have a perfect Brooks. I'm not sure there ever was a perfect Brooks. Since they got their name from the Canals where they were found, many from there didn't even look like true Brooks. Every one has a picture of what they think they should look like. Just my opinion.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

So true Jorge. My idea of a true Brooksi Im sure is different than many others. Again with Hybrids and unnatural intergrades I like how they look but if they could all stay compartmentalized I would be happy. I know thats a pipe dream though.

Bone

Having a lot of thoroughly researched and wild-caught stock myself, I don't have any problem with hybrids. There is an appeal there with creating something that has never existed before.

I appreciate hybrids when done with a sense of vision. The hybrids that get crossed back to a parent species just seem distasteful. Or those combinations of 8 different species and end up looking like a generic tricolor. Or when very similar species or subspecies get crossed.

I guess I've caught enough brooksi, and owned enough WC brooksi to have a pretty good idea of what one looks like. A lot of people place too high a standard on what a brooksi is.

Agreed Nick. Funny thing is my idea of the perfect Brooksi is what most people probably consider average or slightly above lol. These animals you photographed are damn near a perfect "Brooksi" IMHO Sorry for posting them without permission. I like mine with some black on them for contrast.
-

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Will you post a pic of what you have? I too, have what comes to my mind as a "Brooksi", but after all this, I'm not 100% certain anymore, cuz as stated so often, opinions vary.

Here's a yearling female Floridana, I presume she should lighten up much more as she grows, considering how much she's already changed in the past 9 mo or so. Also, compared to alot of the other "normals" I have, she's one of the lightest.

Thanks for any pics you post.

Mbrawley,

Floida kings (brooksi) vary quite a bit from range to range. Even ones found under the same board.

Foxturtle is correct in saying a true visual brooksi standard is way to high.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Bone already posted a couple that I've caught, but here's another:

I don't have all my pictures organized, but maybe I'll post some more later.

Most of the brooksi in captivity originate from Doug Beard, Len Krysko, and Bill/Kathy Love's lines. These guys all popped out hypos, so their brooks lines got bred into everything. They took the absolute best of the best of what the wild had to offer, and selective bred to make it even better. Captive brooks are usually a lot cleaner than their typical wild counterparts.

That's a great looking animal! Some people today would probably be shocked to know that's a Brooks, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Was your point that breeding Hybrids is reckless because many of them are hard to distinguish? In turn these animals get into breeding lines of known lineages and throw a monkey wrench into the mix. If thats the point then yeah I get it.

Bone

I guess all the $25 kingsnakes and Milksnakes are ruined forever, LOL!
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www.Bluerosy.com

Its not about Money for me. I like the 25 dollar snakes. Money has a way of corrupting everything it touches.

I'm charging you double next time!

J/K

I woulda paid it too lol. Love those snakes I got from you!

glossies and long nose are two I'll work with if I can in a year or two. They're neat, small, and pretty. good combo.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

glossies and long nose are two I'll work with if I can in a year or two. They're neat, small, and pretty. good combo.
]

You know that most of the W/c glssys you see on the classifieds end up dying in captivity.

Glossy are great if you can find captive born. Which is not easy. The wildcaught ones you see on the classifieds are usually strict lizard eaters and are very spastic to hold. Though some W/C Texas Glossyseat mice (the western glossys that are W/C are strict lizards feeders). But the texas ones are still spastic.

But captive born Glossys take pinks right from the get-go and grow and eat just like cornsakes. They are calmer than cornsnakes in the hand as well. I think they are great snakes and one that is not worked with much in captive breeding programs.

I don't know why Glossys snakes are so overlooked except that people don't know the captive born Glossys are nothing like the W/C ones.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I was planning to try to catch some juvies myself actually and see how they do-for both species. I figure worse to worse I can buy feeder lizards for a few months.
I don't want to start with WC adults of them cause that seems like asking for trouble (it is with most stuff) but if I can catch young ones...
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

I don't want to start with WC adults of them cause that seems like asking for trouble (it is with most stuff) but if I can catch young ones...

Young w/c are lizard feeder to.

Just catch some adult females during spring. They are probably already gravid and will lay. Just release them after they lay.

Or... just get a few pairs of adults. keep them all together and they will breed and releae them after they lay eggs.

The babies that hatch will be great mouse feeders.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Why if you have W/C adults and they lay eggs that the babies will eat mice. But the parents don't. What changes in the babies hatching in captivity that makes them go to mice? Just Wondering Thanks
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Tom S
1.1 Flame Lampropeltis getla Floridana
1.0 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Axanthic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis
1.0 Anerythristic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis

Why if you have W/C adults and they lay eggs that the babies will eat mice. But the parents don't. What changes in the babies hatching in captivity that makes them go to mice? Just Wondering Thanks

Newborns will eat mice as long as they don't first imprint on lizards. Lizards is the more prefferred food item in the wild. And the most likly they will encounter.

Glossys tend to imprint on their first food item pretty strong. So if they eat a pinky first, they will always eat mice.

But don't ever offer them lizards or they might switch over.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Thanks Bluerosy

Tom S.

A friend caught a juvie, and it took scented pinks, then unscented a few weeks later. Grew up tame. I had a juvie that ate pinks as well. I know not all do that, but the odds with juvies are at least better.

I agree with Blue, w/c adults are trouble.
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Mark

Every time I go to the Mojave I find some. You're right, they're great looking snakes! I never kept any though; aware that they feed on lizards primarily, and the fact that the Mojave is a "once a year" trip for me, I never wanted to risk bringing one home and NOT being able to switch him over to mice, and then not being able to just "take him home" after a few weeks of realizing he wasn't gonna thrive.

they're local for me here Not terribly common though.
Longnoses are fairly regular finds but glossies, not so much
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

I wonder if anyone gets my point in all this!
Don't be judgmental about the lineage of captive bred snakes...they are like a box of chocolates...LOL!

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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

can get chocolate to breed you could retire right now as a very rich man
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

can get chocolate to breed you could retire right now as a very rich man
But they would have to be pure chocolates, not any of those with the yucky cherry or creme centers!
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

The Glossy Snakes and the Dotted Eastern King that is sitting on someone's leg.

Oh well. Still right!

Shucks!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Just you and I got it then. They cant all be Colubrid Zen Masters I guess lol

Bone

And I think that Bone put 2 and 2 together after he saw that some people picked the eastern and some picked the glossy.

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www.Bluerosy.com

I posted my answer first then looked at the other posts. Its insulting for you to assume I cheated when you dont even know me.

Bone

okay you didn't cheat. I am sorry. I just thought that by looking at the other posts from some knowledgable herpers picking either the Glossys or the Easterns. It was deductive reasoning after that point.

But you are right. I just guessed you read them all before posting because those posts where up for a long time.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Yeah I know. I purchased a Hypo from Doug Beard in the Mid 90's and it was very aberrant. My point was that even then the pattern aberrancy had a look to it. Now they look like hypo Eastern X Goini X Brooksi....and God knows they have crossed all those things together. One cant even possibly ever hope to keep track of what happens to offspring thats beeen crossed. That stuff changes hands way too many times so careful record keeping is pointless.

Changing gears I really dig your site and LOVE the Phantom Florida King. Its cooler than the Ghost becuase of the contrast etc...I dont see many Anery Florida Kings posted. Are they just butt ugly or what?

Bone

I love Anery's. I think he's purdy.

Thats a sweet looking snake! Where did you get it?

Hey!,..wait a minute!!....don't they have to be very expensive "cutting edge" crosses to be considered nice looking??

HAHAAHAA!!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder my friend. Speaking of Beauty I hope you have a stellar year with your Florida Kings. Love your Breeders!

Bone

How true,...

Yeah, I'm sure you know I was pouring on the major sarcasm with what I posted earlier..LOL!!

Anyway, thanks a bunch Bone!, I look real forward to this season too man. I really like those classic phenotypes you posted too. I had one almost identical to the top photo as a kid in about 1970. He had a very greenish/yellow cast, and very thin cross-bars. Sure wish I had him now bro!..LOL!

Here is a pic of one of the female's those two produced. This was taken on 9/26/10, almost 5 months ago, so she is even more basal-speckled and greenish/yellow now. She should be quite ready to "go" this season!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Now that's a screamer.

Thanks !....glad you like that little girl.

Here is another sibling of hers taken about three months ago(I've posted this one before too). He is more of a very golden yellow.

oops!,..how did this ugly-looking extreme hypo get in here??..LOL! This animal is proof that you don't have to cross snakes for them to still be mind-blowing gorgeous!

a little amel nelsoni that is het for the "t-plus" albino gene.

another normal that is also het for the "t-plus" gene....

here is the stunning sire that produced the kids above. He is owned by Shannon Brown, and the photo credit on these t-plus pics go to him.........thanks Shannon!

Here is the breeding that produced two of the normal hets I have. This gene was just only recently discovered from a clutch of normal nelsoni that were hatched by Christos Skliris of France in 2005. A few years ago one or two were acquired by Shannon with the help of a fellow German herper friend Gerrit(Burnsy).

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Thats right you dont have to. Those are beautiful!
Gerard

Thanks bud!,....yeah, if that extreme hypo and t-plus aren't freakin EYE-POPPING, I don't know what the heck are!!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Thats a beautiful King! I used to not like the greener tinted ones but after seeing Nicks I changed my tune. Thanks for the pic!

Bone

Thanks Bone!....

Yeah, I like them a good bit too. She started out as a very clean, fairly typical dark brown and butter/cream colored individual, but I just knew she would be a sweet one as she matured and develop some killer speckling as well.

I really like the deep rich coloring on some of yours too!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Last year I picked up a group from a guy whose name I shall not mention on this forum. hahaha! Anyway, these "normals" are among my favorites. They're "PURE" too. At least in my mind, I choose to believe they are. hahahahha!!!!!!!!

Here's a sibling of the same snake a year ago. As you can see, I think she was not a willing particpant in this photo shoot.

LOL!!,....awesome little youngster there!

Yeah, that looks as genuine floridana as the day is long. Many from the southern Lake Okeechobee can fields have that very same phenotype, and of course other places in Florida too.

Nice king with attitude!..LMAO!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

AHWELL...great post rainer and i totally understand why you posted it. TOO funny how even some of the self proclaimed experts couldnt tell whats what.
great looking snakes
,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oA3QqJ9m2w
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."