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This morning I see a few of my monitors copulating, once again we are having an enormous low pressure front coming through the mid west and it streches across most of the country USA. Im sure some of you are getting some of this storm, it would be good to hear about how your varanids are behaving with this weather pattern? Weather affects all wild life in certain ways and with Varanids it usually means breeding for us.
Bob

Cool, but you do understand there is a biology of reproduction.

That is, the female was actually cycle(drop ovum) and emitt pheromones to signal the male. That is, to become receptive.

Without that, copulation is merely copulation.

Its a dang good think we did not need fronts to intice our monitors to copulation. If we did, it would have been rare.

Ya, I do know about the reproductive cycle for sure, especially after breeding helodermas for many years. The point is Copulation and weather fronts. I do believe the girls here are ready this time of year because our first eggs usually come in the next couple of weeks.Actually my beaded lizards would copulate every memorial day weekend for 14 yrs, never seen any copulation before or after that date. My guess would be the front's & pattern's coming through here along with the girls being ready had everything to do with that. To boot I have a good friend in Germany that has siblings from my beadeds and his eggs are always 6 weeks ahead of ours, after being to Germany in the spring and seeing how the season was definetly 5-6 weeks ahead of ours here in Oh. Now that happened for 14 consecutive years as well.
Bob

The point is, fronts did and do not occur here, or in many places in connection to egg laying.

For instance wild gilas here do not nest after fronts, as they nest in the dry season when no fronts occur. Same for many wild beadeds.

There is no denying that many reptiles time nesting to the day. We have seen that with many many types of reptiles.

In fact in nature, reptiles will be at the same spot on the same day year after year. And, each year, the weather is different.

I would imagine that your weather patterns differ from year to year, as to exactly when a front passes through, and yet your beaded had a steady behavior. Thanks

Isn't the reproductive cycle in monitors related with the fat reserves of the female, rather than season or wheather?

I thought they could breed any time of the year, regardless of wheather.

The baby Varanus salvadorii's tend to be available every year in northen's hemiphere winter, thou.

Yes they do breed every month of the year, we have had a single female lay eggs for 12 months in a row.

Its all about support, if you take away support in order to mimic something and drop their metabolism, they cannot cycle. So what your doing is in effect, stopping them.

Some folks choose to stop them, others don't. I am not sure if ones harder then the other. With our animals, we do both. Indoor animals we let do whatever they want, outdoor, well they really do not have a choice.

With the monitors we have recieved eggs every month of the year but that wasnt what my original post was about, it was about copulation, breeding behavior with fronts that come through here. I know you live in BFE in the desert with low or no precipitation but Im sure there still has to be fluxuation in barametric pressure, maybe suttle but it's there. When we have tornado warnings its every adult pair copulatiing or males trying to very heavy. I do know Rustin Hartigan [Dallas Zoo] told me there Prasinus are triggered by strong weather fronts that pass through in spring and fall. Yes breeding/copulation is a seperate issue then getting eggs. Yes, with the other post, extra food, heat is a good trigger for girls to take the risk and put out some eggs. We pull back on the food to stop our females from laying if we feel they need a break. The helodermas need not worry, one chance per year and that is it.So I guess the fronts or fluxuations in barametric pressure can act as a viagra on the males it would seem:}
Best Wishes, Bob

I said that in the first reply, copulation for the sake of mounting, is more or less meaningless. It just excites you, I guess.

Heres the deal. There are two groups of reptiles that copulate, or mount things, all the friggin time. Thats torts and varanus. They will mount something(not picky), when a front passes, or you open the door, or when someone turns a lite on, or off for that matter. Or when you feed them, or pick up a bucket. Or walkby, or sneeze, or cough, or even if you fart, they get all excited and copulate something. If the temps are sufficent to allow movement, they copulate.

The difference between torts and varanids is, torts copulate all manner of objects, like rocks, upside down food dishes, tomato plants, a meteorite, even moving objects, tires, dogs, straw bales are also included, specially moving ones.

Monitors copulate or mount from the day they hatch, other males, other females, or any combo they can. Its kinda what they do. Many of us understand that mounting or mock copulation is a form of dominance. Or better yet, a language to establish and maintain social status. Its also used by the less fortunate individual monitors as a source of name calling. You know, Why you Rock copulator. Or when they attempt to mount their mother, you mother copulator, etc.

So Bob, your right, they do mock copulate during passing fronts, but they also do that when you open the door or close the door, or go out to eat, or went you go buy frozen peas. Cheers

Sorry, I guess I mislead you, they do always copulate for the most part however with the passing fronts and barametric lows they seem to with more attitude, kinda like my wife after a glass of wine on Saturday night verses the weeknight stuff:} And I have seen what appeared to be attemped copulation with 2 rock monitor females within 3-4 days of them each laying a clutch of eggs a few years ago, so it looks as if dominance is proven in the same manner as we have seen in our Agamids [Female frillies] 25 years ago. And for being mislead, many people believe odatria to go from egg to egg in 4 months as read on this forum but they are mistaking early copulation/ dominance/social projecting for egg production. The Gilleni seem to tolerate the groups if set up correctly but the Glauerti seem to get a bit unnerved and show signs of stress, kinked tails [being one] that seem to straighten themselves out in a short time when seperated.BTW do you have any pics of the Kimbara monitor you produced? Id like to see it if you dont mind?
Bob

Bob SaidAnd for being mislead, many people believe odatria to go from egg to egg in 4 months as read on this forum but they are mistaking early copulation/ dominance/social projecting for egg production.
Bob
Well Bob, I am the one who said that and I am the one who ACTUALLY DID THAT. But as normal, you take things out of context. Its not all odatria, I did in FACT, have several of the small species of odatria, V.storri, V.caudolineatus. V.kingorum, and V.gilleni, go from egg to egg, WHICH means, HATCH out of an egg and actually LAY eggs in 4months(give or take a few days)

As well as other odatria like, V.acanthurus, and V.pilbarensis, and kimberlys, go from egg to egg in the 6 to 7 month range.

Also, I had that occur and reported it, before you kept varanids.

You do understand Varanids are reptiles, and as such they are ectotherms. Which means, they are dependant on external conditions to achieve biological requirements. Which means, supporting conditions actually determine what level of metabolism they can obtain. In such, they have a potential range that can be expressed. minimum to maximum.

Those, the above times, were the fastest we had those species reach sexual maturity and actually deposit eggs(out of body) not cycle or form ovum. They were or are not the average time.

In that, reptiles have a potential range of abilities, Not a set number of days or eggs, or growth rate. They have a genetic low and a genetic maximum. I hope you can understand that.

What you achieve as an individual keeper, is based on WHAT SUPPORT you provide. That is, your results are based on YOUR individual suppport of your animals.

In my opinion, your a very controlling keeper, that is, you base all your methods on YOU. and not the animal. Please understand, you are successful. Which is great. But, because you withhold support of your animals, you do limit their POTENTIAL. That is a decision you make. Why you make that, got me.

No offense, and very simply put Bob. But even a braindead chimp could understand, that where I live is friggin hotter then where you live, So our animals are going to be exposed to more heat, for a much longer period. And that has nothing to do with me. Its just friggin hot here.

To add to that, WHERE THESE ANIMALS COME FROM, is also friggin HOT. So its their design to FUNCTION in that type of enviornment.

Just a simple explaination. We use deep nesting, WHY? because its so hot here that there is not way on earth that monitors would lay eggs in a nest box on the surface of the substrate. Its far too hot. So they must dig down into the substrate to find the proper temps. Again, THIS IS WHAT THEY DO IN NATURE. So while its inconvienent for me to dig way down for eggs, ITS THEIR DESIGN. So even something so simple as using nest boxes, does indeed stress these animals, WHY? because its contaray their normal behavior. But I am sure you cannot understand that.

My approach is to limit unnatural stresses, and offer as much support as I can. This approach is how I achieved the results I have. You know, by not TELLING THEM WHAT TO DO.

As long as you hold back support and give them support because its what YOU THINK YOU SHOULD DO, you will never allow the animals to explore the upper limit of their genetic potential.

Also, no offense again, but all the lines you work with, I had already established in captivity, long before you came along.

I will give you this, you do a really good job of taking controlling methods and MAKING THEM WORK. AGain, making them work is not exploring the potential of these animals.

Lastly, I do not believe we can surpass what these animals do in nature. As their genetic potential WAS DEVELOPED to THEIR natural CONDITIONS. That is, they cannot grow faster, or lay more eggs then what their genetic potential allows.

So please stop the whining like what you do is set in stone. Consider, your doing good, or OK, but without question your methods must be limiting these animals from reaching their full potential. What say you sir?

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So please stop the whining like what you do is set in stone. Consider, your doing good, or OK, but without question your methods must be limiting these animals from reaching their full potential. What say you sir?

Look man, I never claimed to set any corner stones but have done as well as I have ever expected, remeber I have a day job and producing numbers like joe did and you claim to have never been my goal, Im just a keeper like many on this forum that has been in it a while. Your ages from egg to egg do conflict with many keepers and some that are book writers in the field and I wont go any further then to say that. I do know I have one female pilbara that probably stands as the oldest in captivity produced by me in 01. You take anything I say as a competitive nudge or something? Give it a break, all I do is post real things I have done and maybe it will help someone who has failed with the group nonsense or the keeping trios of babies together results in 1.2. My findings are different, not saying others are wrong but if they fail for others then keeping an open mind and new ideas come into play.
Best wishes, Bob

I just want to say to you BOTH, keep the info coming..... Thanks!!! (But do it "nicely"....

Hey, sometimes folks get narly a bit narly when proving there point [no biggie]. My point is if groups, NO UVB, and housing neonates led to great measures of success we would be exterminating V. Glauerti, V. Pilbarensis and others out of the Fl. everglades by now. You have to realize the things Fr talks about were in play 20-30 yrs ago and if anyone listened and had real success we would be giving all the darn odatria away, probably have enough to replenish Australia after a tsunami but thats far from the truth, actually its at the total opposite end of the spectrum. But I do keep in mind what works for one person doesnt always work for the other, thats the nature of captive keeping.
Bob

Message to Bob:
Yes, discussing varanids can be a very "hot" topic, sometimes it`s good to wear a bullet proof vest!! I agree with you, there`s more than one way of doing it, (obviously, certain "standards" need to be met to do it successfully, and over long periods of time). Can I ask why you say no UVB if kept in groups? Also, have you ever raised monitors with the 24/7 heat/light method, if yes, did any health problems occur (short or long term), and can you give a few of the pros and cons of doing that, if you have tried it. Thanks!!

I have always supported my dwarfs with UVB and am the one of the largest supporters of UVB, to remove UVB is not good to say the least. Anyone who thinks UVB does not matter is a fool for believing so, I'm not saying you need UVB to breed but for the long haul of the varanids health UVB is a must. Why do you think some of these varanids like V. Pilbarensis remain so rare after being in the private sector for 15 years? Its because most peoples goals are to breed them and that they do readily but females can and will die from demanding to much calcium in a short time. To put it in layman's terms its like you wanting to start a family and taking a 13 yr old bride and keeping her bare foot and pregnant for production of 12 kids. After her 5th-6th kid maybe her teeth would start falling out or other signs of calcium depletion, hunch back? Who knows but she would ultimately regret having so many kids at such a young age when her skeletal development is not complete to start. I still have a female pilbarensis I hatched [ in 2001]and raised and bred many times over and she is still thriving, Its safe to assume the oldest specimen in captivity and a female to boot. You see I differ from many of the breeders that have puppy mill mentalities, first and foremost my herps are pets that I have high regard for not disposable experiments like many have proven . I have kept lights on 24/7 but mainly for heat, I now have them on a day/night cycle with hot spots they may sleep in. I have temps of 130 F but they tell me they don't need them because they very rarely utilize them. Heat is a motivator with all cold blooded fauna, fish included and as long as temps are high enough to metabolize food and daily activity they seem fine and will breed during our early spring,summer and fall [most heavily] but we get occasion clutches at random in any month. The rule of common sense really applies here, yes I have some 7-8 month old female kims I could put with a male, there size tells me that but knowing how young they are I am waiting a while. You see I want them to produce eggs but I also don't want the problems that come along with breeding at a young age either such as egg binding, kinked tails, bowed fore arms, ect. I have never taken a capitalistic $$$ value with my collection, general health and longevity is what I aim for. Breeding and good eggs is a by product of proper keeping, puppy mill mentalities work on a short term basis if your goal is $$$. I have seen the puppy mill mentalities at work here and I see it differently. As far as UVB for helodermas I think its a good idea but certainly not needed, they eat whole bodied prey that has fully developed bone and they get D-3 from the livers of the mammal. The dwarf varanids are better kept with insects and some rodents that are usually pinkie, fuzzy size, we have adult rock monitors with both species that will take adult mice but this is not a normal staple diet and insects are lower in nutrition. This is where UVB is leaned on to compensate a bit, not like the medium or larger varanids that are much like helodermas in getting all the goodies from adult mice and rats as a staple diet.
Bob

Well Bob, Daniel Bennett, wrote up the Kimberly breedings and pilbara breedings in herp review I believe. At least I turned over a year or twos records of our captive work.

I think there was a couple other species in that report as well.

Of interest, I never recieved a copy or even read the article. But it was published.

Daniel wanted to publish the firs breeding of Kimberlys, but by the time he got here, I had produced many, many, many clutches. Look it up Bob.

And bob, so you never bred frillies either, because few are doing it now. I don't believe you did. hahahahahahahaha your a funny person.

How about the reptiles mag articules and Vivarium, Both published some of what went on here, and they came and visited.

Yes Bob, your a funny person.

And yes bob, I did set the varanid world on its ear, and all because I used common sense. i also used a real approach. i collected all the literature I could find. With the help of several great biologists, I actually spend lots of time in the field with MONITORS, 14 trips over ten years. and I built a facility to practice what I learned. Oh how weird is that.

I built indoor cages, outdoor cages and indoor/outdoor cages. Guezzzzz Bob. I did all that because nothing worked. hahahahahahahaha

So you insinuate things, without even looking. good on you.

FR, I ner implied you did not breed like you say, I even seen you at shows but their is some things you say that are just wrong and I know that from keeping and breeding them myself. Im not going to challenge you to a pissing match because based on your accomplishments every thing you say goes as etched in stone and I dont come here to argue. You did well as taking what the Germans had been doing [even went to Bernds a few times] and putting the puppy mill apprach to it and succeeding and then others did the same but they have moved on to other things now. If your happy with what your doing then God Bless ya.
Bob

I used bernies methods as what not to do. There is something wrong with you. Like jealousy or something.

Bernie did a great job, but he lived in frankfurt, and had a house full of tiny little rooms. his cages were tiny and his incubator was tiny. he had nothing I wanted to emulate.

I on the otherhand, have lots of land in a very hot ozzie like place. I have space, I have heat, I have buildings, I have desert, I have dirt. Etc etc. So what I did was nothing like what bernie did. AGain, he did great, but was very limited with WHAT HE COULD DO.

I was not limited, so I took a different approach.

Yes, My approach was and is different then your buddies thats why my results are also different. Bob, I know you have a brain, how about using it.

You do know that old saying, you know, doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results(insanity) Well I did not do what he did, nor did I recieve the same results.

That you copy what they do will not get you the results I have recieve, even a dumbbell can understand that. And man are you acting like one. Sorry.

Is you don't want a pissing match then don't start one. If you want to compete, I will challange you. And I will win.

Send me six of your hatchling pills. and I will have eggs within six months, I guaranteee it. Are you up to it?????

Fr, I do not copy Bernd or you, Yes I have a brain and that is why I bring out the detail in the rock monitor species that you seem to mesh into one along with the larger species. Let me house that group of 6 pilbaras into 2 groups to assure you 2.4 LOL. Jealous? Not my style dude. Here is a group held for a short time and they did fine, if kept for a longer period in that group there is no dobt there would have been some useless male's and maybe dead ones?
Bob

Bob, You really don't get it do you? Lack of UVB has never been cited as reason for success, only that worrying about such silly things as UVB bulbs distracts people from what it takes to breed them. And you are misqouting the qoute for success. It's Heat em and Feed em. Those 2 things when applied correctly get eggs unquestionably. Any idiot with enough food and a halfway decent cage setup can pump eggs from a varanid. Now hatchable eggs is a different story and where the nuances of monitor keeping come in. But the shear amount of food needed to pump eggs out like FR did in the 90's is mind boggling. If people actually learned monitor husbandry THAT would be the single variable prohibiting the excess amounts of odatria that you mention.

You mentioned that his methods are 20-30 years old. WTF does that matter. In those 20-30 years NONONE has matched his success. Oh yes but wait, you don't believe that do you. You see the overwhelming problem with your critiques of FR is that you don't even believe that he has produced what he has claimed, despite me providing you with PUBLISHED accounts. How can he present an argument to you of better methods if you doubt his results? Without being willing to accept his results any discussion between you guys is moot.

I haven't seen many true CBB frillies lately Bob, must mean you never had the results you once claimed. I mean if you had once bred the snot out of them they should now have the availability and price range of beardies...Right???

Lol, FR Jr. to the rescue. Never fails. Did Frank hatch him out too?

On a more serious note, lack of UVB isn't an issue. Many keepers have hatched out perfectly fine monitors with and without UVB.

So by comparison, that would make you, Bob Jr. hahahahahahahaha

Its very odd that if someone agrees with or has seen what is being discussed, they become a Jr. My opinion on that is, doing that is retarted And a immature comment to make.

Actually your agreeing with Nate about the UV bulb issue.

FR,

I was definitely agreeing with Nate. I try not to take things here TOO seriously and have some fun with it from time to time.

Bob,

I've worked with monitors for long enough to know that one doesn't need UVB to hatch out healthy monitors, in general. That's a topic we've all gone through plenty of times.

HOWEVER, You do make a good point regarding rock monitors specifically. I've never worked with them. They need those nutrients from SOMEWHERE and if you are putting a female through the stress of reproduction, they better have the proper nutrients and support or else they will go bye bye.

You do raise a good question regarding Why Frank didn't work with them longer than he did. Possibly because of the reasons you claim, possibly not. That's up to FR to explain.

Cheers

You know, really the pilbaras came out like in 95-96? and by 99-2000 Fr was out of them when we inquired so how long is that? Joe specialized in odatria and really anyone who owned a kim or pilbara back then claimed to have gotten them from Joe [people I know all over the USA] So I know Fr did produce some but I have a hard time to think it was huge amounts or the odds of everyone I know I would or should have ran across someone who bought from him. Joe got his original ones from Fr and so did some of the other big name breeders but then it seemed to stop? Just my take on it. No offense to Fr but its really how it seemed and remember I am only speaking of the rock monitors here.
Bob

Until you have worked with either of the rock monitor species your comment on UVB is iggnorant. I do like your comment on FR hatching out Fr Jr. ROTFLOL!!
Bob

Lol, FR Jr. to the rescue. Never fails. Did Frank hatch him out too?

Better check the pattern on his back when he has his shirt off, maybe flavi like? LOL
Bob

Posted by: Nate83 at Sun Feb 6 23:05:52 2011 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by Nate83 ] [ Log in to Follow this user on Connect ]

Bob, You really don't get it do you? Lack of UVB has never been cited as reason for success, only that worrying about such silly things as UVB bulbs distracts people from what it takes to breed them. And you are misqouting the qoute for success. It's Heat em and Feed em. Those 2 things when applied correctly get eggs unquestionably. Any idiot with enough food and a halfway decent cage setup can pump eggs from a varanid. Now hatchable eggs is a different story and where the nuances of monitor keeping come in. But the shear amount of food needed to pump eggs out like FR did in the 90's is mind boggling. If people actually learned monitor husbandry THAT would be the single variable prohibiting the excess amounts of odatria that you mention.

You mentioned that his methods are 20-30 years old. WTF does that matter. In those 20-30 years NONONE has matched his success. Oh yes but wait, you don't believe that do you. You see the overwhelming problem with your critiques of FR is that you don't even believe that he has produced what he has claimed, despite me providing you with PUBLISHED accounts. How can he present an argument to you of better methods if you doubt his results? Without being willing to accept his results any discussion between you guys is moot.

I haven't seen many true CBB frillies lately Bob, must mean you never had the results you once claimed. I mean if you had once bred the snot out of them they should now have the availability and price range of beardies...Right???

Yes, 20-30 yrs doesnt mean a thing except for nobody has had the urge to puppy mill the dwarfs like he and a few others once did or has not tried to? There is a huge differance in an insectavore varanid that produces 10 clutches a year verses a flavi that eats fully develeoped rodents 100% diet. The fact is the insectovore varanid is not getting enough D-3 calcium to sustain those 10 clutches and bad things can happen. This is where UVB comes in, Im sure I could always hold back hundreds of the rock monitors to replace all the girls Id be killing without UVB like the puppy mill mindset does but I choose not to. It can be done without UVB I know for a fact but the females will not last more then 3-4 years. Ive seen this on a large scale just like he speaks of him doing. In fact back in the day when kims were all over the place almost everyone I knew that had them got them from Rare Earth or Python Pete. As far as the frillies? They are very cheap now and the killer red ones I had are gone. They sell imports under 100 ea. Wouldnt be worth the food bill to even consider breeding them. If there were some nice red ones around, no doubt I would still have some, at least a pair. I know of his success, that is not even the issue or question here. But he does not differentuate between species and there is a differance between a kim and a flavi and Im not talking about size.
Bob

I have no idea, why or how you think like you do. And thank god for that.

Nate, who has been here many times and seen evidence of the volume we once did, and the facilities that I still have. he linked a publication to you in the past. hes also seen thouands of hatched monitor eggs we still have, thousands.

You still think I am telling stories, and Daniel would not investigate what he wrote up, and the articules in both Reptiles and Vivarium, were bogus as well.

You want to believe Joe, because if he told you the actual truth, you might not make the purchases from him. hahahahahahaha Joe does what was called for to support his company.

That articule was a report on the first few years of producing those species. They were in no way the record or best results we achieved. As I am always open to improving our setups.

In some ways I can understand because I stayed out of the public eye. Even way back in the kingsnake days, I sold to the big dealers and they resold my animals. Same for the python days, and the same for the monitor days.

What is so weird about you is, you have no understanding at all. Like, why don't you still breed frillies, my guess is, because you don't want to. Or beadeds? again, because its your choice to not breed them or breed them in numbers.

And you don't understand why I stopped or slow down with monitors, that is odd.

I still love varanids, but as you know, they are a lot of work to do correctly. And, I tend to favor larger, non-odatria, these days, again, its my choice.

You fail to understand so many things, like you say, you don't do it for money, well neither did I. But I sure as heck was not going to give them away if I produced excess. But money was not a driving force for me.

Curiousity was and still is. Being curious means, I enjoyed exploring the bounderies of what these animals are capable of. Not what they do is some limited set of conditions some keeper wants to force on them. To me that is brain dead boring. Put them down, bring then up, breed them once or twice a year, do it over and over and over, again to me. Thats boring, really boring. I like to see these animals GO FOR IT. Do what they do. In nature, they go as hard as they can.

I love to explore the exceptional, their potential, not their friggin minimum efforts.

Hey, I am glad you do. I really am. But don't get all goofy with me. Cheers

Fr, when I comment on monitors it is aimed at the few species I have kept/bred for years and doesnt include anything larger then odatria except for prasinus and a short visit with flavis. So what I post is what I see with primarily with the rock monitors. The rock monitors didnt seem to be your fortae did they? You seemed to be in them long enough to sell a few groups and then were out of them. They are much different then flavi or goulds and maybe all your info pertains to the more recent larger ones you work with? They [the larger ones] I can relate to with my beadeds as there are some simularities. Gilleni in 4 months from egg to egg is quesionable after having them. Maybe its been so long your confused?
Bob

No offense sir, I bred the rock monitors far longer then you have. Just because you came along after I was ending with them, means only that you are LATE.

And no, the rock monitors were not my favorite species, but they are indeed great. They breed like flys and you know it. There just no so much fun.

That is compared to other monitors I go in the cage with and play with them. Like the gouldi types and lacies and croc monitors. To me, they are fun.

There is no doubt I made my money off kimberlys and pilbaras. But I question how much fun they are. Sir, I still do this for fun.

As I said, read the friggin paper DANIEL BENNETT published. That indicates some numbers in the first couple of years. My bet is, I produced more in two years then you have in your entire life. So what is your problem.

The problem is you apply monitors as being one in the same across the board [one species] as far as husbandry in most cases.
Ask someone who has really spent much more of there time with odatria about uvb in females and offspring, there answer will be far different then yours. Most knowledgeable people with the larger varanid species do know uvb is not necessary to breed them. Although in helodermids it is the same scenario as is the med-larger varanids proven no uvb needed. Yet the most successful breeder of helodermids in the world, well spoken and many books written, many articles written likes to use uvb on his gilas [Dr. Seward] because he knows it is part of the everyday life in the wild and does have some benefit. Nobody likes to spend money on bulbs they don't need but your all about choices and yet deny a real biggie without uvb in odatria. Fact is some of the other breeders told me you got out of the pilbaras because you lost all your females?? Hmmm? I have seen what multiple clutching does to odatria females with and without uvb and their is a difference. Although telling you this means nothing because you know it all, dun it all or seem to without uvb. Ask Doug price about the difference in his black head babies with and without uvb, I think you will find the same answers I have given. Not everyone on this forum is looking to produce on the scale you have and keeping is different if you have a pet's verses a disposable breeder's that you must hold back many offspring to ensure a continued success with. Anyway I know Bernd never intended to mass produce, his captives were kept along the lines of pets with study and focus on a given species followed by books. Yes there is a need for different opinions and experiences because not all newbies are out to copy what you once did. Some people are simply happy with a pair of a given species and enjoy them. If I had larger outdoor facilities I would have kept the flavis I once had but the space required by my likings would be greater then what I had for my beaded's. Point is it doesn't take thousands of hatching's to learn from these animals, I did set the new world record of largest clutch of beaded's with one viable pair, it can be done on a smaller scale but this is a topic you seem to land on with every post you make, seems you don't want anyone to ever forget. I have bred nothing but lizards for the last 25 yrs and there are alot of parallels with all of them, geckos included. The only reason I even post about this and take all of your crazy reactions is to let people know who think if they buy 3 kims or pilbaras,gilleni that they will not end up as 1.2 if kept in a group, heck from what I have seen they will be lucky not to kill them by doing so. We have proven these varanids are sex able at 3-4 weeks old and have been 100% on any sold or held back so now we can remove one myth [someone???] created about them back in your heyday. The uvb issue is a no brainier for anyone who has really kept these dwarfs for any length of time and has seen the difference. I think knowing the subtle differences in species makes the big difference here.
Bob

CrocDoc's myth? He disputes your 3-4 week sexing theory.

Im not even going to get into the details [ to much typing]of this but the bottom line is odatria are born with a given sex nothing to do with socialization of groups like so many believe and have learned on monitor forums [so I'm told by some buyers of odatria]. We have sexed the odatria and so far it has proven to be pretty accurate. And if we would be wrong with one then its a simple mistake but does not mean they are not born with a given sex. Hermaphrodites maybe the only situation that is promoted by socialization of groups [just my personal theory].They [Hermaphrodites] are normally males with under developed gonads suppressed by the presence of a more dominant male in the same little cage. Ive seen other things with other lizard species that leads to this theory.
Bob