Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I HATE reading sad news, and I really hate giving it, but I am baffled! I walked into my snake room thursday night and smelled "that" smell. So, I was looking in bins to find a regurgitated or uneaten rat. (I feed on fridays ONLY) I didn't find a regurgitated rat, but I did find my 300 gram fire male dead and bloated. He looked like he was in the movie The Ring. His neck and face was all distorted and there was a gooey mass outside of his mouth. I have cypress mulch for substrate, and the ONLY thing that I can think of that killed him was that he choked on a piece of substrate and then tried to regurg it and some gaged edges caught his esophagus and he eventually regurged his own esophagus.....????? Is this possible?

The last thing he ate was a large live mouse, last friday. I watched him kill it, but did not watch him eat it.

Anyone else have this horrible misfortune happen to them? I think I am going back to unprinted news paper.

Sorry to hear about your loss.

It's always tough when you loose a snake.

Don't beat yourself up, try to move on.

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Brian Gundy

www.for-goodness-snakes.com

I am really sorry to hear about your loss. It always hurts to lose a pet.

I do not think he could have regurgitated his own esophagus. As much stress as regurgitating does put on a snake, they are well designed to be able to do it. Furthermore, if he were "choking" on a piece of substrate it would be in his larynx, the opening to which is on the bottom of their mouth, just behind their tongue. If he had something stuck in it he would have been able to push his larynx right out of his mouth and "spit" it out. Snakes run into this kind of problem often in nature and have mechanisms for dealing with it.

Do you have any other theories of what might have caused this?
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.1 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 Whitesided P. catenifer sayi, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

I have no other theories. I didn't examine him, because he smelled really bad, and I was SOOO distraught that I just picked him up and put him in a bag. When I picked him up his neck was expanded and looked like a typical neck of a ball swallowing a rat or mouse, and just the tail is hanging out....he looked like he was at that stage of eating a rodent, but like I said I didn't examine him. There was NO tail hanging out or anything, so he must have gotten the mouse down, but I also didn't see a piece of cypress hanging out either. There was dirt and little pieces of cypress stuck to the sides and in his mouth, but not ONE big piece or anything. I think he swallowed cypress, and tried to regurge it, and it got stuck on the way out and he was probably battling it for days for all I know.

I am trying to move on, but it sucks. Every now and then (times like these and respiratory incidents) that I feel like just selling my whole collection, but my girlfriend really helps me get through these times by pointing out the things that I have accomplished with this hobby.

Got news for ya kid! The bigger your collection gets, the more you run into this! You're right, it truly sucks! Like I tell my wife: When you deal with exotics, exotic sh*t happens!

Sorry for for loss. It's terrible to lose one of your animals. I lost a female cinny last year. She was a beautiful girl and it's hard to accept that they've passed, especially when you don't know why. An autopsy by a her[ vet can help you understand why, but it doesn't make it feel any better. Hang in there.
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Cheers,
Jessica Gibbs
Ball Pythons; Corn Snakes; Green Tree Python; Jungle Carpet Python; Bci; Bcl; Bco
www.supercoilconstrictors.com
LEARNING PREVENTS IGNORANCE OF THAT WHICH SURROUNDS YOU...AS LONG AS THE SOURCE FROM WHICH YOU LEARN IS A VALID ONE.

I'm so sorry to hear about your fire male. There isn't much that I can say to make this situation better, but I can let you know that you are among many of us who have lost a snake for one reason or another. It sucks no matter what!
I wish you well.
John
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John Woolard Reptiles

Sorry for your loss. Like everyone else said, in this hobby, it's just one of those things that's going to happen. I lost a couple of snakes the same way not too long ago. Haven't had any other problems and have no idea what happened. They were fine one day and bloated up and dead the next. It's tough, but you just have to move on. Not necessarily anything you did wrong.

did it look something like this?
notice the large bulge right at the neck area.

It looked exactly like that!?!?!?!?WTF??? So what happened?

Email me.
Raphymartinez@Maballs.net

Awe, but I want to know too! Is it something strange and rare?
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.1 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 Whitesided P. catenifer sayi, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

I was thinking the same thing.
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John Woolard Reptiles

Had a spider male that that hapened to a couple of months ago. It realy sucks losing an animal.

What caused this issue? Is it something that could be prevented? Treated if early signs are detected? Genetically linked?
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.1 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 Whitesided P. catenifer sayi, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

I would love to let everyone know what he says, but I will respect his wishes. I will ask him if it is ok to tell you guys, but if he says he would rather I didn't, I won't.

I hate to be seen as a nag about this (anymore than I already am, perhaps), but if this is a learning opportunity that could save the lives of snakes in our collections, shouldn't we be told?

Isn't the point of this forum to help each other improve the lives and health of our snakes in captivity? Improve the quality of Ball Python herpetoculture?

I feel this falls into the same category as when breeders do not post a failed clutch, duckbilling, kinking, etc. I certainly wouldn't not judge a simple mistake if we can use it as a chance to prevent it from happening again.

How about if I say "please"? "Pretty please"?
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.1 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 Whitesided P. catenifer sayi, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

Hi,
I am guessing it could be one of two things?
-- food was to big
-- the rat wasn't dead and was maybe unconscious and came around and fought like heck to get out? Killing them both.

Can you please let me know if I am right because I am almost made the first mistake with my rosy boa? Luckily she was smart enough to give up on getting it down or I think she would be dead right now.

Thanks, Paige
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1.1 cinnamons, 1.1 pastels, .1 mojave, 1. spider, 1.1 super pastel, .3 normals, 1. lesser, .1 black pastel, .1 pinstripe .1 rosy boa, 1.1 gophers, 2.1 kids, 1. hubby and a bunch of other animals

It turned out that it was not the same thing. He mentioned that he got a bunch of balls from the same breeder and some showed signs of bubbling and wheezing, and some just died for no reason, and that there was salmonella in the cultures, so....

Mine had something that looked fleshy hanging out of his mouth, but was in no way a rodent of any sort, so...this is going to have to just be an unsolved mystery, and I am leaning towards substrate or possible salmonella, but I wouldn't even begin to know where or how my snakes would have acquired salmonella.

And as for the "not telling" thing. I ALWAYS want to help make this hobby better, and I would tell everyone in a heartbeat the outcome of anything suspicious, but I didn't know what or where he was going with "what he was going to tell me" so I opted to respect his wishes, what ever they were. It turned out that he just needed to get some personal info from me to see if my snake came from the same breeder that he got his from that died. He didn't tell me the breeders name, so I don't know that info.

I have had the fire since Tinley Park of 2010. I feel that is enough time to clear the breeder of responsibility.

I didn't know that it was going to be this hard to figure out what happened, or I would have kept the carcass and had a necropsy done, but I figured it would be an easy thing for you guys to just tell me what had happened. This is just another one of those bad learning experiences and I am going to move on from here.

Let me reiterate that I feel EVERYTHING should be disclosed about this hobby. Including, what makes certain morphs, and failed clutches and deaths and their causes. I would love to know what certain combos are so that I can work towards acquiring the ingredients in my collection to make my own. I would like to know what things have killed your snakes so that I can dodge those causes. I would love to know what breeders have been less than ethical so that I can steer clear of them.

Thank you so much for sharing. So sorry about your Fire!! I was hoping it was something easily explainable so I could avoid it too. My daughter had a corn snake(Mr. Pretzel) and we kept feeding it after it regurgitated, didn't know any better and we both feel bad that we killed it. Live and learn and trying to suck up any knowledge that I can from you all. V/R Paige
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1.1 cinnamons, 1.1 pastels, .1 mojave, 1. spider, 1.1 super pastel, .3 normals, 1. lesser, .1 black pastel, .1 pinstripe .1 rosy boa, 1.1 gophers, 2.1 kids, 1. hubby and a bunch of other animals

Now that I think about it, my fire may have been impacted, cause I don't remember cleaning any feces. He ate every week, but I don't think he was pooping......sigh, oh well. Sometimes life is just a bee-sah-niech.

That really is too bad about your Fire. A young one, too, is a hard loss.

I am still familiarizing myself with Ball Python physiology. More familiar with mammals and venomous snakes. Do BPs have a set of glands around that throat area? Swelling of those glands could have caused some serious problems.

There are also a number of bacteria and viruses that can take up residence in a larynx or esophagus, but if this is the one and only time you have seen this I would doubt that could be the cause. I am sure you would have noticed an illness that severe. Hmmm...

Did you have him on entirely on Cypress mulch? How moist was it? When was the last time you did a full tub clean out? Do you bleach out when you do a full substrate change?
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.1 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 Whitesided P. catenifer sayi, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

I don't know about the glands.
I had him on just cypress.
Total clean out was about 3-4 weeks prior.
I don't use bleach, I use Priority Care Chlorhexidine Solution diluted to about 1 ounch per gallon.
I spot clean and spray the substrate on Mondays, and feed on Fridays. His substrate wasn't moist. I was told that mold grows on aspen but not cypress, and I have seen some mold on my cypress from time to time. The reason I switched to substrate was to cut down on my cleaning time on Mondays. I am going to go back to paper and just put in the work hours again.

Mold and fungus will grow on Cypress mulch, but it is very slow. If you just had a clean out, and sterilization, within the last month I don't believe it would have been either of those. Strange indeed.
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.1 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 Whitesided P. catenifer sayi, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

Sorry I couldn't provide more help

I am ecstatic that you made the effort that you did. Thank you for your dedication to this hobby!

so who was the breeder so we can avoid him?