Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I posted this below but was afraid it may not be seen
I will re-post it here with a couple of changes to expand my target audience and to let a certain person know this wasn't as much to call him out as it was to call our community, in a whole, out.

I really can't understand why our forum members get aggravated by people coming to a corn snake forum to learn about corn snakes. A lot of people do not have anyone local who can help them...I never did..There just weren't any local enthusiasts that I could find or talk to...still not, really. PetCo and PetSmart employees??? I don't think so...and although you can find some excellent books it is sometimes much better and easier to learn from real time conversations with experienced keepers. You might find something in a book that is close to what you are wanting to know but a lot of times it isn't exactly what you're looking for. Not only that, if you haven't been in the hobby you probably have no idea which books and authors are actually the ones to go by. There are still some corn snake manuals out there that talk of using "turf carpet", pine and even calci sand as acceptable substrates. If I had never had a corn snake and went to Amazon to order a book or books on corn snakes how the hell would I truly know which authors were the best..I've seen some sorry excuses for corn snake manuals get high ratings..To me this just means the people that bought these books found the information THEY wanted and therefore felt this was a good book. And of course, if I came HERE to ask, people would jump on me and ask why I didn't get the books BEFORE I got the corn snake!!! I kind of thought that was why we come on here....Obviously to show off our own collections but also to talk to other people with our same interests and to help people getting into the hobby. When you do a search on the internet, for corn snakes, you go to the sites listed and garner what information you can, then you all of a sudden come to a forum where you can ask real time questions and hopefully get some more direct and insightful information, how can there be anything wrong with that. It is exactly what everyone says...do the research....Sometimes a snake buy is an impulsive buy, like it or not it happens and if truth be told I doubt there are many or any here that hasn't ever made an impulsive buy. Or acquired a snake out of circumstance that they really didn't think they would ever own. I just acquired a sand boa and a rosy boa from a friend who's husband just died. I didn't plan on owning these snakes but I took them to help her out and when I get to the point where I might need more in depth and direct answers to some of the questions I might have....I will go to the forums here on Kingsnake and ask those questions. The first person that tells me to do my research and that these forums are not an avenue for that research will be the last person I would ever trust for ANY information.
Any time anyone is doing any research to expand their knowledge then they are doing the right thing. I don't see how trying to gain knowledge, be it from a book, a pet store, a show (not as much great knowledge at a lot of shows as people seem to think), a neighbor or a forum, can be wrong. Trying to expand your knowledge base can only be a good thing.
Think about it
whew..getting dizzy on my soap box
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Corn snakes and rat snakes...No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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>>This is posted on the main page of the corn snake forum and basically says it all

"Here you may post messages or questions pertaining to all aspects and issues regarding the keeping, breeding, health, and conservation of all Corn Snakes.

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Corn snakes and rat snakes...No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Jimmy,

I think there is some "base knowledge" that someone should attempt to acquire before obtaining a pet. When I was a kid, I read everything I could about reptiles (in many cases I re-read the same books over and over again).

I get aggravated when someone who's never posted here before asks a question, gets answered by 2 or 3 people who basically give the same information, and then wants to argue with the people who took time to reply because they "heard somewhere" that corn snakes eat corn or rats are more nutritious than mice or corn snakes NEED ultraviolet light, etc. Any of these things can be easily found out without too much trouble.

I have seen a heck of a lot of misinformation on this forum as well as on many other forums on the internet. A person would be a fool to believe what some posts say. It is for that reason that I usually suggest that a snake owner get Kathy Love's "Corn Snake Manual" or Don Soderberg's "Corn Snakes in Captivity" book. They are inexpensive and in some cases available at the library.

While I do not keep snakes on astroturf or sand, I know many people who do and have been quite successful (though I don't recommend it).

I think part of the problem with today's "soundbite nation" is that pet owners think they can get all the information they need from a conversation with a pet store employee or care sheet or forum. In many cases, this is all they want information-wise. These days who wants to bother reading a book? But the truth of the matter is that topics such as trouble shedding, mites, refusal to eat, etc. are bound to come up sooner or later. Having a book onhand is a valuable resource. Those two books I mentioned would have been worth their weight in gold to me when I was a kid. But these days people are too lazy to read.

I think conversations with experienced people are very important too...after a person has done some basic research. And only if the person asking the questions is going to respect what someone more experienced is trying to relate - rather than endlessly arguing about a topic they know very little about.

I think if someone posted on this forum "I'm thinking about getting a Corn Snake, what should I know?" the answer would be relatively universal: Get one of the books by the above-mentioned authors and read it.

I've sold Corn Snakes to people and upon receiving the snake would e-mail me asking: "What does it eat?"

I sold a Corn Snake to someone who e-mailed me and asked why their snake isn't eating. What they told me that they were keeping it at 65 degrees, I explained that snakes need a heat source and then told them about UTHs - they then put their snake's cage on a radiator and promptly cooked their pet.

I had someone buy a Corn Snake from me and then go on vacation for three weeks. When they came home they wondered why the snake was dead. They didn't know snakes drink water (the snake dehydrated).

All of these needless deaths could have been averted if the owners picked up a book and did some research.

I've acquired a great deal of animals over the years that I never, ever planned on owning (iguanas, a ferret, a ringneck pheseant, etc.) and you know what I did? I went on a forum and I asked "What book do you recommend for a (fill in the blank)?" It's not that hard to get good information.

I reckon I disagree of your phrase "Any time anyone is doing any research to expand their knowledge then they are doing the right thing." Because:

1. Often times people aren't coming here to expand existing knowledge - they're going to forums for 100% of their information, without regard to if that information is coming from a reliable source (informationis only as good as its source).

2. I've seen people who come here asking questions argue endlessly when someome who knows more on a particular topic that they do gives them an answer they don't want to hear.

Tim

My ferret, Boo, found living on the streets of Cleveland, "helping" me clean snake cages:

great input, Tim
Highly appreciated
always good to have views from all angles
thanks
I do agree...someone without experience or knowledge comes on here, or any forum, asks a question then argues when they get the answer, can be extremely aggravating..but people using the forums as one of their sources of information IS a good thing and that is why these forums are here...to help. Especially when they ask legit questions and want to listen to the advise they get. You are also right in the amount of garbage that can be found on these forums which makes it even better because people are usually called on their B.S. on the forums...there is no discussion or alternate views in books. It is the author's way only. And although people have used those certain substrates with success that doesn't mean they should be recommended and a newbie to the hobby doesn't know which books to believe without asking.
basically what I'm saying is...when people ask questions on these forums..help them or not..your choice.. but don't bash them for asking...only bash them if they start to spew the BS we all know is out there.
There's not one of us that knows everything we need to know. Any and everyone can have questions at one time or another. If everyone felt this information should already have been researched and is unwilling to help then we all suffer.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes...No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I've never had snakes with either, so I am probably not up to speed with proper treatment. Sure I've read books and posts and care sheets pertaining to these problems but I would probably come to these forums to ask people i know and trust what their opinions of treatments would be.
Should I get blasted for asking for information that is in books and care sheets or should I get the help I'm asking for, from people I feel may be more up to date. Most books take years to hit the shelves...You have research time, writing time, proofing time, publishing and marketing time...like any other interest hobby or endeavor there are new things discovered every day. Something that came out in a book last year most probably was from two years ago or more. You may come to a forum and find that over the last couple of years a new and better remedy has been found.
use every source at your disposal and find what works best for you and your animals. don't ever take ANYONE as all knowing. They aren't. The first person that tells you there way is the only way is the last person you should ever listen to
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Corn snakes and rat snakes...No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

"basically what I'm saying is...when people ask questions on these forums..help them or not..your choice.. but don't bash them for asking"

Jimmy, it's almost like you're indicating that if you don't have anything nice to say, then maybe you shouldn't say anything at all! And yeah, I've got to agree with that. I think having a positive atmosphere where people can go for information is important.

And I agree with you somewhat on the book issue. Treatments for ailments can and do change. But these days updates of existing books come out relatively frequently, especially with the company Herpetocultural Library, which published a revised and updated Corn Snake Manual (2000) calling it Corn Snakes: The Comprehensive Owner's Guide (2005).

Tim

Corn Snakes: The Comprehensive Owner's Guide (2005).

In my opinion, the best book on corn snakes out there.
But there are others and it would definitely be better if new hobbyists would ask which books we would recommend.
Here are a few I would recommend when it comes to the basics, and more, of corn snake care

Corn Snakes: The Comprehensive Owner's Guide: Bill and Kathy Love
Corn Snakes in Captivity: Don Soderberg
The Corn Snake Manual: Bill and Kathy Love
Corn Snakes & Other Rat Snakes: Patricia P. Bartlett and R.D. Bartlett
Corn & Rat Snakes: Philip Purser
Cornsnake Morph Guide: Charles Pritzel

to name a few....

It would be helpful if we could get people to list books they would recommend.
I know I'm always looking for more books
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Corn snakes and rat snakes...No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

>>"basically what I'm saying is...when people ask questions on these forums..help them or not..your choice.. but don't bash them for asking"
>>
>>Jimmy, it's almost like you're indicating that if you don't have anything nice to say, then maybe you shouldn't say anything at all! And yeah, I've got to agree with that. I think having a positive atmosphere where people can go for information is important.
>>

in a sense, yes, but it seems to be a lot harder to do then to say....I know I have trouble keeping my tongue in check a lot of the time...but yes we do need to try to keep it as friendly and as informative as we can so we can keep people coming back and to expand participation.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes...No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

It's kind of a shame there aren't more folks chiming in. The flip side of reading a book is so many folks do just that, and become instant experts and basically quote one (or more) books verbatim. There's just no substitute for experience. Back to Jimmy's point I know I've answered the same basic "I just got a corn, NOW what?" questions on another form over and over (and over) in the 8 or so years I've participated, and it does make you groan. But as was said we were all "that guy" at one time; whether or not we were pain in the @sses is subject to who ya ask . But the hostility and negative "vibes" put out truly does suck; nothing like seeing a new hobbyist's enthusiasm get squashed :*( And no one out there knows it all, theres always something new to learn...

While I understand the frustration some have with the obvious questions, I always try to take the time to answer as best and polite as I can. I wish there would have been a site like this one I could ask questions in when I was starting out. There are a few old timers here and we can give different views and opinions and call out the really bad ones. I have seen too many kids kill a snake like was mentioned above and maybe the info they need to save it is going to come from one of us. By the way what's wrong with Pine shavings? I've used it for about 30 years with no problems. Now Cedar is another story all together, but pine is ok as long as it's not sappy. The stuff Walmart sells is fine.

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>While I understand the frustration some have with the obvious questions, I always try to take the time to answer as best and polite as I can. I wish there would have been a site like this one I could ask questions in when I was starting out. There are a few old timers here and we can give different views and opinions and call out the really bad ones. I have seen too many kids kill a snake like was mentioned above and maybe the info they need to save it is going to come from one of us. By the way what's wrong with Pine shavings? I've used it for about 30 years with no problems. Now Cedar is another story all together, but pine is ok as long as it's not sappy. The stuff Walmart sells is fine.
>>
>>
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>>King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
>> J Sierra

It seems that the kiln dried pine has proven to be pretty much safe but cedar and pine emit aromatic hydrocarbons which can be dangerous to smaller animals such as snakes (pine to a lesser extent then cedar)...cedar has actually been discovered to change the liver enzymes in small animals. I think the older, non dried pine with bark and wood fiber combined were more suspect to cause respiratory problems, especially when wet or in higher humidity. If you use it and haven't had any problems that is good. I've talked to several people who have, which leads me to believe it is probably OK and improvements have been made. I prefer to ere on the side of caution...my snakes can get messy, they seem to take pleasure in spilling their water bowls.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes...No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Yeah, if I had read these warning prior to my ever having used the pine shavings, I probably would never have started using it. However after at least 30 years of keeping snakes on pine shavings. I am confident that there's no problem. I did buy some from a feed store once that was intended for horse stables and it did have a strong smell and I refused to use it. I also learned my lesson quickly with the red cedar chips, after having it kill a baby Speckled king about 25 years ago. The kiln dried stuff at Wal Mart is pretty safe.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I agree,