Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was thinking about how the hobby was booming in the mid 90s. At that time it was really about diversity in collections and less morphs colubrids and boids alike.

Everything was commanding respectable prices and people were interested in large diverse collections, many species were viable and in demand.

What the hell happened? It's not like it used to be, do even colubrid breeders have the ball pythons to blame? Or was it simply the hobby hit a fad and it died.

Is this, the way it is now, the way it was for the old school guys through the 70s and 80s and the 90s was the boomtown?

I'm really nostalgic, I guess.

Well, the actual dynamics of how the hobby has evolved over the years is very complex and multi-faceted. But I think the short of it is that EVERYONE wants to be a breeder. The allure of walking through a big show, some money to be made, and of course the internet where you can simply click on thousands of photos on demand are certainly key-factors that propelled things to where they are today.

Supply and demand govern everything in this entire world, as well as this entire hobby. And there are good points about it, and very disappointing aspects too it as well. It is a neverending, constantly evolving wheel.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

***UUGGGHHHHHHH***

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_y_TCFuGr4
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Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

HAHAHAAHA!!!!...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

I resisted the urge to find a gif just like that one to accompany my remarks on the never ending hondo "debate".

Very funny.

Gerry

Before the "golden age of herpetoculture" we mostly kept what we could collect. About the only snakes most of us could buy commercially were boas and ball pythons. Every once in a long while I would see wild caught cornsnakes or kingsnakes show up in pet stores. This would have been in the 1970's to early 1980's. Then in the 1980's to 1990's, hobbyists figured out how to breed snakes. The market was very strong for captive raised snakes, with demand far out-weighing supply. There were several herp-related popular magazines with pages and pages of classified adds. Along comes the internet and new web-sites selling herps were springing up all over. Lots of fantastic herps became readily available to anyone with the click of a mouse. Herp shows with snakes in deli cups were within easy driving distance. The hobby was booming and prices were high.

Eventually, the market for herps started to saturate. Supply exceeded demand. Breeders now emphasized color morphs as a way to increase demand. However, this market also became saturated. Supply still exceeded demand.

Then, in late 2007, we got hit with a severe economic recession. In some species (e.g. cornsnakes, honduran milksnakes, ball pythons), demand, which was dropping anyway, fell further. People who lost their jobs are not going to spend money on their hobbies. They gotta buy groceries!

Here is the great irony in all of this. If you have the money, now is a great time to buy herps you have always wanted. It is just like any other market. When the market is strong, prices are high. When the market is weak, prices are unbelievably low. I just made a purchase of two high end herps for less than half of what I paid for just one back in 1999. This is a classic buyers market.

I'd like to add...my main interest in snakes can easily be said in one word, genetics.

I like working with unknown genetics...and of course producing multi-recessive traits in one snake is just fun.

My Grandfather was into orchids, my Dad was into birds and succulents...snakes are just more fun.

Why? Because it's cool! To be one of the few to do something for the first or second time has some reward.

If everyone is making X...then I'll go make Y...but not for money, I have to be interested in it. It must be challenging, fun, and almost cutting edge to keep my interest.

Will I make some money to pay for the cost of keeping them...surely.

But, I'd rather give stuff away to people that I know will care for the snakes correctly... then sell it for a 100 bucks, to some ignorant person and have it die.

-Rusty

I agree with this one also...first one I read too so...

and yes...right now is a buying market...you got room...buy the GOOD stuff you want...need....

1999...half price...spider balls...LOL....99'...15000??? I forget...now 75$....males....but still...

yes....you can get some stuff cheap....some stuff you cannot find....at all....

the future???...hopefully it gets better.....

....
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........JY

I hear ya!
Me and some friends were talking about that just the other day.
DMONG made some great points about your post, BTW.

My thoughts are this: During the 90s, this was a time of excitement and newfound wisdom within the herp community. I feel that back then, it was more about the love of the hobby than what it seems now with some, as far as treating it like a fad. Remember price lists? I used to come back from shows with a binder-amount in hand, full of breeder's price lists! haha! Or, receiving them in the mail. Anyways, it was an exciting time, that is for sure!

I bred normal, albino, and het albino cal kings, pueblan milks, sinaloans, and corns in the mid-90s. Had a blast, sold them for what I could get, and then decided to just concentrate on collecting specimens I could not live without, and I have not been happier.

The scene, as a whole, to me, was just not as big as it is now. Some ways good, some ways bad. Now, we have the internet! Everything is a click away. No more years of reading these things called books, about our beloved snakes. The days of checking out herp literature from the library are long gone!

The more people who are encountering the awesomeness of snakes is a great thing!! But now, the reality of it all has hit. More snakes being produced, more consumers years ago buying snakes to breed only, and now, we have such an influx of product ( baby snakes ), that I see snakes for sale all the time on sites that have been there for months and months. Show sales for some have been slow. Breeders I know are not moving as many babies as they used to. All of this, while in ads, I see the general mentality of " buy this pair, and make your money back! ", I have seen so commonplace in ads. Thing is, will you really make your money back??? What does that really consist of? Do people really understand the time it may take?

It is all about supply and demand. Not enough demand, and too many people breeding everything they have. That unto itself is not a bad thing, but the question is, do you really have to breed everything you buy? And then, when they don't sell, the internet makes it all too easy for some to get onto forums and whine about not getting what they think is the fair market value, when they should be thankful enough that they live in a country where they are able to get ANY chunk of change for a snake.

And yep, everything has got to be made into a morph these days. Although I absolutely love morphs, and have quite a few, why so much is it of the focus, rather than ALL of the available color choices available, both normal and morphs? Do normals really bore people THAT much? If so, then you are right, things HAVE changed way too much!

Good thoughts!

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Genesis 1:1

Billy that's about the coolest tricolor albino I've seen.
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Randy Whittington

Randy,
Coming from you, that is quite a compliment brutha!!! Thanks!
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Genesis 1:1

Good subject.

For me, the interest in herps is still there, but the desire to house as many as I could has waned. And albinos and morphs do not awe me like they did in the past.

Anymore, a locality rosyboa, even if ugly as dirt, or a locality mountain king or Cal king still make me have that feeling I had way back.

I remember pricelists. Oh how exciting it was to get one in the mail. Because they mostly did not have pictures, one had to imagine what the snakes looked like, which made me want to try a few of each if the price was right. Fun times.
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Mark

"Back in the day" people were interested in locality animals as well as the unique aspects of the habitat where a specific snake was found. Snakes from different mountain ranges, roads and canyons were valued - even if they were the same species.

These days people are less serious about reptiles and learning about that natural history. Especially newcomers. They'd rather muse over idiotic thoughts like "What will I get if I cross a Boa with a Ball Python?"

It also has to do with supply and demand. After reptile shows proved that money could be made in the 90s, far too many reptile shows popped up. Snakes are relatively easy to produce and it doesn't take much to saturate the market.

There have also been Crested Gecko, Leopard Gecko and tortoise hobbyists that have entered the field and they have no interest in snakes. This may be a rumor, but I've heard there are even amphibian enthusiasts too.

I think the ease in making morphs has caused people to get "morph happy" and relentlessly pursue anything new. This can often be combined with the idea that some folks think they can make a living breeding colubrids (which is possible, but not easy).

The focus has definately shifted away from how cool specific animals are and how they may be uniquely suited to life in the wild to how to make a quick buck.

Tim

Exactly!!!! Your post is perfect!
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Genesis 1:1

Yeah, All that stuff was SPOT-ON guys!!

I could have went on and on, as there are literally "a million and one" different angles regarding the hobby, but all these posts are in fact a huge part of where this hobby has been going for years now, and why.

It seems that far too many people today are only interested in the aspect of "making" snakes than there are people that are actually interested in knowing all about them and their natural history because they are genuinely interested in snakes. In my opinion, countless books were my very best foundation growing up, then along with those books came lots of hands-on experience to further reinforce my knowledge and confidence with them.

I agree with the others, and that most of the book reading about snakes is indeed a thing of the past. Everyone wants their "instant gratification", and wants to throw their very own silly coined name on a deli cup.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Doug you are absolutely right. Took the words right out of my mouth. I'm willing to bet the herpers of today have never even opened up Petersons field guide or the Auduban Society guide.(not all herpers) I remember having the field guide in hand on my fathers friends farm when I was a kid.

I think you're missing a couple of important points here guys.

1) Lots of these people you're ridiculing might never have had the opportunity to get in the field or become acquainted with reptiles had it not been for the proliferations of cb herps. I can remember a day when what I could find was limited and what was in the pet stores was crap. Just trying to say that for a lot of people the hobby has advanced and provided opportunity not degraded. It might not be what you remember but many who where lucky enough to grow up where they had access to cool herp populations seem to have forgotten how fortunate they were or are.

2) Be thankful not everyone into this is hitting the field! I've seen and heard of too many sites being wrecked by over collection and poor field etiquette. Think what it would be like if everyone who travelled to Daytona hit and ripped up Okeetee on the way home. Even in the west where there is tons of habitat accessible habitat is limited.

3) Time was this was a pretty tight community. If you liked snake you were in and let’s face it, most of us don’t fit in real well elsewhere. Now the community has more than its fair share of snobs. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve seen a kid’s enthusiasm for herps dashed because some butthole had to make a negative comment like “cream cycle corns are hybrid trash man”.

I think the future of the hobby will be in the hands of a few large scale breeders who will work the numbers. Because of the internet there will also be a few nitch breeders and I think locality will play into this but even there the motivation to hold back and produce specimens that are remarkable standouts will subvert the process as much as morph production has.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

To me, the big change is that you now have a hobby where over 80% of the people in it have never actually caught a snake in the wild...maybe even higher than that! I love the access to unusual morphs, and the glut of breeders have brought about more than I ever imagined as a kid looking at price lists!! However, I am myself a little burnt out and am contemplating selling off my collection, because its a lot of work and a lot of money, and the payoff in sales isnt very high anymore. While the payoff in watching a neonate hatch is still awesome, not sure its enough...
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel Sinaloan
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

I just got off work and read this thread and wanted to comment on it. I got into snakes late in life about 10 years ago. I started with cornsnakes and within a year I had my first pythons, Children,s. a friend of mine gave me two right out of the egg. It just so happened they were a pair. Then I got a pair of burms. I raised all of them from babies. That's what I really enjoy doing raising them up and watching them grow. when the Children's were three years old, I went ahead and bred them. When it got close for her to have them I was going and checking on her every day.One day when I got home from work I looked in on her and she was laying her clutch. I was just in ah I just sat in my chair that I had in the snakeroom and watched her. after she was done. I put the eggs in an incubator that I had made up. When the day came for them to hatch, and I saw the first baby out and about I was hooked for life. well I kept two out of the cluch and sold the rest. I raised up those babies. To me that's the fun of this hobby. About two years ago I had to have major surgey done. I was out of work for almost a year. I had to make some tuff choses. I sold off all my snakes. But I told myself some day I will get snakes again. And here I am to day back at my old job.( been there 15yrs) And I am able to get snakes again. Well I went back online and decided that since I am older now (55) that I needed to go a little smaller. I felt that burms were just to big, by the time they got to be huge I would be to old to handle them. So I went with some hondos and Fl kings. So I bought the all the books I could find and started to read. Will I breed yes. To make money no. I will breed so I can have a few snakes that I produced. Sorry if I rambled to long but I just thought that you guys should know not all new guys are looking to be the next best breeder.
thanks
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Tom S
1.1 Flame Lampropeltis getla Floridana
1.0 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Axanthic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis
1.0 Anerythristic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis

I have been a die hard snake fanatic since I got my first garter snake at the age of 5. Ever since then I've been hooked. I can remember the first time I saw an axanthic ball python for sale, priced at a crazy 10k. I remember the first tangerine Honduran I got with my mother at a Pomona reptile show. I remember catching numerous California kings and gopher snakes as a kid with my dad and surprisingly my mother was always more than supportive of my interest in reptiles, buying me my first albino Burmese python nearly 6 years ago. When I was younger I had a fascination with the ocean. It's unexplored depths and seemingly endless supply of mutant creatures and so many more still waiting to be found. I still love the ocean, but every time I see a new morph of any kind of snake I'm reminded of all the undiscovered color variations and new outlooks on genetics. For me the hobby hasn't changed. Last year was my first attempt at breeding. I had a few clutches but was horribly unsuccessful. But after seeing the first eggs I don't know that a true herp fanatic can turn back. My collection has grown to 20 snakes. I'm fascinated every day by the genetic combinations I have. If I make any money this year from breeding I know it will go in to making my collection bigger. Possibly diversifying my collection. For me the boom and recent recession has made it possible to have the animals I keep today. The people on this forum have helped me immensely and I don't know of many other hobbies where a nobody would be treated with the same amount of respect or tolerance. That's what makes this hobby truly unique for me. And I will continue to do it as long as I can afford it.
Just my two cents,
-JT

My attraction to snakes started at the tender age of 3 as my mother suffered from a skin condition that was only treatable by the venum of a glossy snake. I trained a male possum with an awesome sense of smell to track and then "round up" these special critters and I milked them in the desert sun of Las Vegas. After a few years, our family fell on hard times and we were forced to eat some of our stock but it wasn't a total loss as I used the skins to make socks and sold them to tourists for three dollars a pair..... Ok, I have done none of these things! I keep colubrids because I love to watch them eat! I have around a dozen and if breeding and selling them pays for a piece of the cost to keep them, that would be awesome! not making fun, just being a goof! Great topic gents! -Scott-.

LMAO Now I was buying that story until the part with the trained possum. If you had said a trained armadillo I would have taken hook, line and sinker. Funny stuff.
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BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
0.3 P. c. sayi Kingsville X Stillwater red bulls
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 D. corais Yellowtail Cribos
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

Thanks for a laugh.

"I used the skins to make socks"

LMAO!!,....sounds like something Bear Grylls would do in an episode of "Man vs. Wild"..HAHAA!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Holy Cow! So many of you guys hit so many nails on the head. To be honest that it why I started to think about it.

The sense of wonder and mystery that used to revolve aroud herps is gone for so many. Sometimes it seems like all the "ooohs" and "ahhhhs" and "look how pretty" have died. That sense of interest and wonder has taken a back seat to money concerns.

This is it though, we have conquered "herpetoculture" and krrp and breed, most of the worlds species with ease.

I think the colubrid community does such an excellent job of keeping interest up for wild type locality animals as well as the beautiful and exotic looking morphs.

Its important because I think once you feel a wildtype animal is a throw away you've lost the meaninG and I love morphs.

I think the biggest change is that we used to go out and collect the target snakes we wanted and kept them. With new laws restricting this the hobby had to change over to breeding.

Without going out and catching your own zonata, greyband, Indigo, rosy boa, pinesnake, milksnake etc. You don't understand and appreciate the ecology of these animals.

Also if you wanted something exotci you either had to travel to S. America or mexico and bring it back yourself. Either that or you purchsed direct from the collector who caught them and get to hear the story of how they found them.

I will never forget when I saw the first Sinaloan milksnakes brought over. The collector just got out of his vehicle from Mexico and started pulling them from bags. He described how and where they were found and even the type of small mice indigenous to the area. ..which is why w/c adult sinaloans always wanted fuzzies.

That time is long gone and it made it more interesting for the keepers because we actually had an interest in the snakes and not just breeding.
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www.Bluerosy.com

This is one of the better questions posted on this forum in a long time. And I've enjoyed reading everyones answers.

I like what Rusty said:
my main interest in snakes can easily be said in one word, genetics.

While I don't have much interest in breeding morphs(I do keep and breed some though), I do respect Rusty and others who show interest in this end of the hobby, and follow along w/ what he and others are trying to accomplish.
Morphs are a huge part of our hobby, whether we want to participate in breeding morphs or not.

I also liked what Tim said:
I think the ease in making morphs has caused people to get "morph happy" and relentlessly pursue anything new.
Although I like what some morph breeders are doing I totally agree w/ Tim's statement and think there is to many "morph happy" people breeding snakes.
I'm still dumbfounded how quickly morph breeding fell into the Hognose hobby. And I never hear anyone on that forum talk about locality Hognose, which for me would be one of the more interesting things about keeping Hognose.

It's been said before here and I'll say it again. Keep/breed what you enjoy, if you can make a little money at it to pay for expenses, great. But you'll have longevity in this hobby if you keep herps because you enjoy it, not because you need to make money at it.

Bluerosy wrote in while I was typing this up, and I agree w/ all that he said, but this stands out for me.
Without going out and catching your own zonata, greyband, Indigo, rosy boa, pinesnake, milksnake etc. You don't understand and appreciate the ecology of these animals.

I think a lot of folks are missing out on this important part of keeping snakes.
But these are only my opinions, what do I know?

-Dell

n/p
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Jimmy Tintle

Everyone here has touched on their likes/dislikes of the hobby and how it has changed. They are all valid thoughts and feelings. The one thing we all( well I hope all) have in common is the definition of the word hobby:

An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure

This is why I am here at KS.com, the shows, and out in the field teaching my children about these animals. I really don't care which way or another this hobby turns as long as I am able to keep the species I enjoy. I think Rainer touch on the fact that it is hard to go and appreciate the species you like without laws regarding that species making it hard.

As many of you, I started my love for this hobby as a child, not in a store, or a show but right in our own backyards. Unfortunately now, the start of this hobby is online, this is where the kids start most of their learning now a days.

I would like to thank all of you on this forum who provide us with your vast knowledge and personal opinions that guide these beginner hobbyist to what area of the hobby they find pleasurable. The one nice thing about the animal hobby is we have a chance to make some of our expenses back.

Hope everyone has a great spring breeding season and you produce what you want whether a morph,locality animal, or even a hybrid(I didn't just say that)!!
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Jimmy Tintle

....had alot to teach me!

Good post Jimmy. Excellent point about how many get their start in the hobby online now vise in there back yard. That is bound to have an impact.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Well said everyone. Lots of different viewpoints, and stated better than anything I could write. If your opinion of the herp hobby today is negative, blame it all on Carl Kauffeld and his "Snakes and Snake Hunting" book. If your opinion of the hobby is positive, then give Carl Kauffeld full credit. It was his "Snakes and Snake Hunting" book that really started it all. How many old timers haven't traveled at least some of his routes covered in this book. Not many I'm guessing. Thank goodness everyone in the hobby today isn't into personal field collecting; there wouldn't be a rock let unturned today. Just one quick statement on morphs; I personally love them but, if anyone ever produces a pure albino southwestern Green Rat Snake, please, just kill the darned thing.