Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
Click for ZooMed
Click here for Dragon Serpents

Question about bosc monitors...Long

calebjg Feb 09, 2011 03:37 PM

I did find some great care sheets.
I was wanting some personal experiences from people here.How difficult are they to tame? What should I look for when I go to the expo? I would prefer a female but Im under the impression they cant be sexed until adults, right?
How are they with other animals like cats and dogs? My tegu never cared a bit about them except once when he was watching my cats tail swish around and I promptly removed the cat.
Years ago I had a huge male arg.tegu I had for several years.This guy was a monster and not altogether nice.He was known to chase me around his enclosure on occasion.But he could also be a sweetheart and let me handle him.So Im not a complete noob.

The key here is my son who is ten wants a savi.Im still a bit unsure.I would rather him get another snake.Snake bites are nothing compared to a lizard bite.BUT if we do this together it may be okay(joint ownership).He also isnt a noob and has had several snakes since he was five, including a male boa(supervised of course).
So what are opinions here.

Replies (16)

JoOaks Feb 10, 2011 10:03 AM

Finally, someone doing some research before acquiring an animal. That's certainly a breath of fresh air. Kudos, sir.

Sav specific care sheets I like, personally, are on savannahmonitor.org, and Bamboozoo.weebly.com. Varanus.net, in the Captive FAQ, also has a general care sheet guideline that can apply to savs as well.

As for getting a monitor because your son wants one, don't do it. However, if YOU want one for your own personal enjoyment, then continue researching and researching and researching until you decide you really do actually want one. These lizards, if given proper care, can live for a long time. At the ripe old age of ten, your son has yet to develop a real social life. He has yet to find a significant other. He has yet to deal with high school sports teams and extra curricular activities. Not to mention college and employment. If you're not getting this lizard for your own purposes, it will be nothing more than a burden and an obligation for you if your son loses interest, which is most often the case.

Consider these facts:

These lizards can exceed lengths of up to four feet. No tabletop enclosure is going to suffice for long. They need custom-built enclosures; not fish tanks, or hamster cages, or screened terrariums. The materials can be costly, especially when you get to building his adult enclosure (which you should be planning and thinking about before you acquire a lizard). An 8'x4'x4' enclosure is the absolute MINIMUM for an adult. Even a juvenile will utilize every inch of that enclosure if given the chance. Do you have space to accommodate something that size or larger?

Savs are built for burrowing. Their enclosure must allow for this. Any of the care sheets listed will get into further detail, but they should always have access to dirt.

These lizards are not like snakes. They require small feedings very often. I feed mine twice daily. Are you willing to go out and buy whole food prey items every day or keep yet another container for raising your own live food? The first two sites I listed above have lists of prey items.

Water must be changed daily. They need something large enough to soak their entire body in, which even for a juvenile requires a good amount of water. It's a huge pain. The enclosure will also need upkeep.

It takes me about two hours a day to care for my savannah. We have a specific routine in the morning, afternoon, and night. How you care for yours is totally up to you, but my particular routine goes like this (it's a bit excessive):

Morning: Check temps, humidity, equipment. Remove water basin from enclosure, bring to bathroom, dump water, lightly scrub inside, refill, return to enclosure. Spot clean excrement.

Lure Sav up my arm and carry to a large area for training purposes. For her entire feeding, I make her work. She gets food for walking up to me or for following a "target." I make her climb and run for exercise. She will get food from tongs or I'll toss a live feeder for her to chase, which she loves. After watching some of MDFMonitor's youtube videos, I now have her mount my hand or climb my pant leg, as well. All this provides her with exercise, mental stimulation, and reinforcement that I am a good thing to be around.

Afternoon: She eats a second meal with the same routine as above.Afterwards, I'll sit in my room with her and let her roam if she chooses to leave her enclosure. Usually she'll explore for a little while then wander back in.

Night: I check all the temps, humidity levels, and equipment.

If after all this you decide you want one, here are the answers to your questions:

Taming: Browse the forums for a post titled "Need help taming monitor" That has a lot of information regarding this topic.

At the expo, most, if not all, of these lizards will be wild caught. If you find a cute little hatchling that is super sweet and easily accepts handling, walk away. You want the most lively lizard there, which probably means the one you can't go near because he's hissing and tail whipping and trying to bite. Don't worry, this is normal (see taming post). Also, your lizard should appear alert with clear eyes, clear nose, clear vent area and appear well hydrated (skin that doesn't tent or look pinched) and well fed (nice full tail base).

I'm under the impression that until your lizard lays eggs, you'll never really know. If you catch him going to the bathroom and he everts his hemipenes, than yes, he's a male.

Your dog or cat, just like you, will most likely be viewed as a predator. When he's full grown, your very small dog or cat might look appealing as a snack. Then again, I've seen videos of them co-existing. I guess it all depends on your monitor, your dog, and your cat. I wouldn't let my dogs near my girl because they would think she was prey.

I hope this huge rant helps.

murrindindi Feb 10, 2011 11:42 AM

To JoOaks; You give good advise, I agree with just about all of it. (I don`t see it as "ranting"!!

These animals under optimum conditions could very easily get well past the 10 year mark, though unfortunately, most die within a couple of years, or much less. So it`s a looong committment if you do it right. Children can have quite short "attention" spans...

JoOaks Feb 11, 2011 03:43 PM

Thank you!

calebjg Feb 10, 2011 03:30 PM

Wow great reply. First off, yes I am just as excited about getting one as my son so taking over wouldnt be a problem if he gets bored.
I do have Q. I was going to build it an enclosure in our snake room.BUT in order for it to be big enough it would have to be in an L shape. as in one 5x2 with another section off that also being 5x2.Would this still be reasonable? IVe heard they are rather couch potatoes so if they get plenty of out time and exersize the cage size shouldnt need to be huge.
Im sure if and when we actually do this I would love to pick your brain on training.
BTW we homeschool so plenty of time to train etc..

Also Im thinking we need to go ahead get a roach colony started.Maybe dubias for it while its small.But would hissers be okay when its bigger?

lwcamp Feb 10, 2011 05:04 PM

>> Also Im thinking we need to go ahead get a roach colony
>> started.Maybe dubias for it while its small.But would
>> hissers be okay when its bigger?

I have never known a sav to turn up its nose at a hisser.

Roach colonies take several months for the population to build up large enough to sustain a reasonable harvest, so start your colony early. Once you have a colony going, it requires minimal care and is a great source of lizard food. I currently have a hisser colony and I cannot feed them off fast enough.

Luke

murrindindi Feb 10, 2011 05:08 PM

Hi, I`m not sure where you heard they`re "couch potatoes", but I can tell you that a healthy monitor, kept in optimum conditions is quite an active animal!
The L shape itself is o.k as would be the total length, but are you saying 2 ft tall and wide, if so, nowhere near large enough? The minimum space for an adult savannah monitor would be in the region of 8L x 4H x 4W (feet), bigger is always better, in my opinion.
You need the height to get a decent depth of substrate, in this case that would be a sand/soil mix, although you don`t need 2 ft as some think is absolutely necessary, at least 15 to 18 inches is needed, that allows them to dig/burrow, also good for the humidity which should be somewhere between 50 to 70% (it will vary, being lower around the basking area), but that`s acceptable, providing the rest of the enclosure`s higher (the hides/burrows will be quite a lot higher, anyway).

murrindindi Feb 10, 2011 05:23 PM

Sorry, I missed the roach breeding part; yes, they`re excellent food, this species is a specialist insect eater, although they do take vertebrate prey, even if only rarely (in the wild).
My personal opinion is that provided insects form the bulk of the diet, it`s acceptable to offer a moderate ammount of vertebrates, e.g. ONE suitably sized rodent/bird/freshwater fish/crustacean etc, per 7 to 10 days or so(difficult to measure what`s "moderate"!

lwcamp Feb 10, 2011 05:13 PM

>> How difficult are they to tame?

Tame is probably not the right word. Adult savs can lose their fear of people, even become trusting. That trust can be broken quickly, though. Also, once they trust that you will not do things to hurt them, they have no hesitation about trying to rip off your fingers and eat them if they believe there is food nearby (if they don't think food is around, they tend to be amenable to interaction and even limited handling).

>> What should I look for when I go to the expo?

A healthy, active juvenile. It is okay, and probably preferable, if it is afraid of you and tries to escape or defend itself. It takes time for trust to build up, and juvis are naturally flighty. Any juvenile that seems tame is probably sick and a poor candidate for a long term pet.

>> I would prefer a female but Im under the impression they
>> cant be sexed until adults, right?

Correct

>>How are they with other animals like cats and dogs?

Those I have had mostly ignored other pets (except for the ferrets, who liked to "play" with the savs by nipping them on the head. The ferrets got their come-uppance, though, when they tried to mess with the Nile. Ferret baseball, with the ferrets as the ball, and the Nile's tail as the bat).

>> So Im not a complete noob.

I found that keeping other lizards and snakes didn't really prepare me for monitors. It is a considerable step up, and monitors have peculiar requirements that you can get away with neglecting when keeping other reptiles.

Luke

murrindindi Feb 10, 2011 05:32 PM

To lwcamp: Can I ask why you allowed the ferrets to "play" with the savannah and Nile monitors, not very responsible, to my mind?
Babies and juveniles especially, are terrified of anything that moves, so I wouldn`t allow ANY dogs, cats, ferrets etc, etc anywhere close. (Just my personal opinion).

murrindindi Feb 10, 2011 05:36 PM

It might could be possible to sex the babies and juveniles using the "candling" method.

lwcamp Feb 10, 2011 05:26 PM

A few more thoughts ...

>> I would prefer a female

Females have a lot of health problems associated with laying eggs, unless you get the nesting just right. If they don't have proper nesting options, cycling will be extremely stressful on the female and can dramatically shorten her lifespan.

>> Snake bites are nothing compared to a lizard bite.

Sav bites do hurt, but they cause a lot less injury than the bites from other monitors (I know this from painful personal experience). This is due to the blunt teeth they have for crushing shells which cause less trauma than sharp-toothed lizard bites. Unfortunately, when they bite they tend to grab on and hold and their jaws clamp shut with a lot of force so they are difficult to pry off. You can be waiting for quite a while for the lizard to let go of your unfortunate body part.

Luke

calebjg Feb 10, 2011 06:21 PM

I am wondering if they are not unlike arg. tegus?
Ours was just a hatchling and was pretty wild, actually jumping at me from inside his enclosure.But while he tamed down okay he still had his moods.He was well over 4ft when I had to rehome him due to illness(long term).
As for a 4x4x8 I doubt many people have anything that big inside the house.It may be perfect but thats just a bit unrealistic. While height isnt a problem(I would worry about them falling and breaking something from 4ft up) 4ft deep is not doable.
Our tegu had 3 enclosures.A 6ftx2x2 in the kitchen(more of an emergency enclosure).A 8x4x4 outside and a 12x12 in the attic where he spent his winters mostly hibernating.

I am pretty sure Savies dont hibernate right?
This is my favorite pic of our tegu.I put a ton of work into this guy and will do the same for a Savi.

lwcamp Feb 10, 2011 07:00 PM

>>I am pretty sure Savies dont hibernate right?

Savs do not hibernate. However, wild savs are known to be inactive during the dry season (which lasts about 2/3 of the year) and actively gorge themselves during the wet season.

Luke

murrindindi Feb 11, 2011 06:18 AM

Hi, in the wild, savannah monitors CAN brumate for up to 8 months of the year, (possibly because of a shortage of food, rather than just the change in temps etc), but I don`t recommend trying this in captivity, unless you have a good deal of experience with these animals.
No, they are not like tegus (except they may look similar), varanids have a much higher metabolism, and need much more food, and higher temps (basking) especially.
The reason 4 ft tall is recommended is as I mentioned, it allows for a deep substrate, which is very important.(I`m simplifying it all).
As has been suggested, I think you might be better with one of the smaller species such as V. acanthurus. (Great that you`re asking questions first)!

JoOaks Feb 11, 2011 03:43 PM

Hello again,

I'm glad my post above was helpful. Regarding the enclosure size, yes, an 8'x4'x4' enclosure is huge. It takes a lot of thought and consideration to decide to build something like this. That said, it's not unreasonable. I'm currently building a 10'Lx6'Hx4'D enclosure in my basement. It will dramatically decrease the usable space in that particular area of the house, but it will allow HER to use that space.

If this next statement of opinion comes off as rude, I apologize. This is not directed at you, more of a general belief I have about anyone who decides to keep an animal. If one cannot provide the minimum requirements for keeping an animal, one should NOT get that particular animal. The term "minimum requirements" is self explanatory. People always comfort themselves with the thought, "This is good enough," when really the animal is the one who suffers for it.

I just recently switched from crickets to dubia roaches as a base for my sav's diet. They gross me the hell out, but the many benefits of using them trump the deterring ew-factor. I would look into hissers and what they call false death's head roaches for larger lizards.

A healthy sav with ample space and an interesting environment is not a couch potato. There is a lot of burrowing and basking, which are obviously sedentary activities, but they are very active otherwise. I believe this idea was created by people who kept savs in inadequate conditions in a too-small enclosure. Youtube is littered with videos of people who think the best set up is a fish tank lined with newspaper, a half log, and a water bowl. What the hell else is there to do but lay down?

Having read your new thread about possibly not getting a sav, I think that is good. Not in a "Ha-ha, you can't get one" kind of way, but the fact that you realize you are unable at this time to adequately provide for that type of animal. That is the responsible thing to do, and it is a selfless decision to have made. Again, kudos.

I am by no means an expert on savs or any kind of monitor. I am quite the "newbie" myself, but I've done a tremendous amount of research and have learned a lot from the folks on this forum. I *am* however a professional dog trainer and behaviorist who employs a method that can be applied to any animal capable of learning. If you do get a lizard, I would be more than happy to share my knowledge on training. It is quite interesting to watch as the animals begin making connections.

Best wishes,

Jo

murrindindi Feb 11, 2011 04:07 PM

Another very thoughtful reply JoOaks!
I`m not new to varanids, but I`m still learning, even after 30 years. I think the best way is to question the answers, if you do that, you`ll (hopefully), have an understanding of WHY things are said to be so... rather than accepting everything without question, in which case, you don`t understand much at all... (A gem of a statement, if I say so myself)....

Site Tools