Reptile & Amphibian Forums

OK, this "thing" was found in my ball python's tub this evening. I have no idea what to think of it. Here's two pics of what I found in the tub. More descriptions and pics to follow these first pics.

Now, some descriptions. There was a normal solid waste and "pee" in the tub. No real amount of blood in the tub, but there is some small amount of blood on the vent area of the python. Here's the elimination (weird object removed):

And here's the vent area (sorry, it's a little washed out by the flash):

The area above the vent seems puffy, like there is something else in there. I have probed this python and it is male, and was also sold to me as male by a reputable breeder. He has also locked up with a female this breeding season and I've caught him doing normal male courtship activities.

Now, some description of the "object": it seems to be "anatomical". It does not seem like a foreign object. It also seems to have vessels on it. I would describe it as a very thin, yet stable (it did not rupture when I lifted it with tongs) connective tissue-like sac. It is full of an aqueous fluid, with no air inside. The fluid does not seem viscous. There is NO odor coming from this thing either. I did not rupture it because I plan to take it into the vet office with the python tomorrow. There does NOT seem to be ANY indication that this "object" was once attached to the python's anatomy...no tear, no other 'tissue", no structure that would indicate an entry/exit into/out of the
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Cheers,
Jessica Gibbs
Ball Pythons; Corn Snakes; Green Tree Python; Jungle Carpet Python; Bci; Bcl; Bco
www.supercoilconstrictors.com
LEARNING PREVENTS IGNORANCE OF THAT WHICH SURROUNDS YOU...AS LONG AS THE SOURCE FROM WHICH YOU LEARN IS A VALID ONE.

no structure that would indicate an entry/exit into/out of the "object, nothing! Here are some closer pics of the "object":

Other that some "puffy" feeling as described above, the python seems fine.

PLEASE, don't just reply, "Take it to the Vet!". I fully intend to do that, but have to wait until the morning. BUT, if ANYONE has any insight whatsoever as to what the heck this is, I'd be eternally grateful to get info.

Much thanks in advance!
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Cheers,
Jessica Gibbs
Ball Pythons; Corn Snakes; Green Tree Python; Jungle Carpet Python; Bci; Bcl; Bco
www.supercoilconstrictors.com
LEARNING PREVENTS IGNORANCE OF THAT WHICH SURROUNDS YOU...AS LONG AS THE SOURCE FROM WHICH YOU LEARN IS A VALID ONE.

.....looks an aborted follicle... which makes no sense since the snake is a male. Odd, very odd indeed. Someone posted on the BLBC about a female aborting her follicles and they have pictures...but the follicles are smaller than what you are posting but look very similar!
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0.10 normal balls
1.2 mojave
1.0 sulfur mojave
0.1 pewter vanilla
1.0 calico
0.1 sulfur
0.1 pastel
1.1 Butter
1.1 Pieds
0.3 Pinstripe
0.1 Spider
0.1 Cinny
0.2 Black Pastel
0.0.1 Sulcata Tortoise

Most importantly
1.0 hubby that shares my hobby

I agree! that looks like an aborted follicle. I would have the snake re-sexed...
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Sed et serpens erat callidior cunctis animantibus terrae quae fecerat Dominus Deus...

DON'T take it to the vet! OK, just kidding! Looks like a female thing! Are you sure you didn't have a female in there w/him and she left a gift, but wasn't discovered til now?

Very interesting!

From your post, I will assume this is the snake's first breeding season.

I can take a huge guess and say he may be a hemaphrodite and aborted a follicle..... Again a huge guess here!

Please update us on the vet visit!
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Best regards,
AlanColesReptiles

Hermaphrodite was what I was thinking too. I have come across a couple in my rodents. With how many snakes we cumulatively work with, it makes sense that we would come across one eventually.

Have you ever tried to actually pop the hemipenes of this "male" to give a visual confirmation? It wouldn't be the first female who had ruptured homologues, giving you a probe depth of male. Have you tried probing both sides too?

If you take it to the vet, you might want to get an ultrasound if the snake will cooperate and your vet won't take you to the bank for one. You might find your male is building a nice batch of follicles.
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.1 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 Whitesided P. catenifer sayi, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

Are there confirmed cases of hermaphrodites in ball pythons? that's an interesting possibility
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Sed et serpens erat callidior cunctis animantibus terrae quae fecerat Dominus Deus...

I had a female abort follicles last year and here's the pic. They look similar except mine were more solid/jelly like and boy did they STINK! I'm sure they would look very different depending on the stage of development.

Nice pic Mike!

I wonder what the vet has to say about the object in question.
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Best regards,
AlanColesReptiles

This is what I would expect with abort. But this thing is soft, watery, and clear. No stink.
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Cheers,
Jessica Gibbs
Ball Pythons; Corn Snakes; Green Tree Python; Jungle Carpet Python; Bci; Bcl; Bco
www.supercoilconstrictors.com
LEARNING PREVENTS IGNORANCE OF THAT WHICH SURROUNDS YOU...AS LONG AS THE SOURCE FROM WHICH YOU LEARN IS A VALID ONE.

Called the office this morning and they are booked today I have an appointment for tomorrow at 11am PST, and they'll call me if they have any cancellations today.

Thanks everyone for the comments and opinions. I am really hoping that this is not something called a hydatid cyst from a small species of tape worm... usually only found in dogs, cows, more recently found in foxes. Can't find any scientific literature about them being found in snakes (or reptiles). The cyst looks just like this thing. Someone on another forum posted a photo of aborted follicles that look like it too, and I'd take a improperly sexed female that has male courtship tendencies over worms any day
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Cheers,
Jessica Gibbs
Ball Pythons; Corn Snakes; Green Tree Python; Jungle Carpet Python; Bci; Bcl; Bco
www.supercoilconstrictors.com
LEARNING PREVENTS IGNORANCE OF THAT WHICH SURROUNDS YOU...AS LONG AS THE SOURCE FROM WHICH YOU LEARN IS A VALID ONE.

probably unfertilized,,, ovum....

she has more in there...hopefully they get fertilized and stay in her till ready to be layed at the correct momment...if she drops more....just let her...not much you can do about it anyways...

...good luck....

hundreds of eggs...never had this happen.....

...
....
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........JY

Well, I am not going to pair "her" (if this is indeed an oocyte and this is not a boy) because I don't feel this snake is physically fit enough to carry eggs to term. If this were a known female I wouldn't have bred her at all this season. Its got good weight for a 2008 male, but not a breeding female in my opinion. I'd rather her pass unfertilized eggs and be ok. Doesn't it take less out of the female than if the eggs were fertile and went to term? What do you think?
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Cheers,
Jessica Gibbs
Ball Pythons; Corn Snakes; Green Tree Python; Jungle Carpet Python; Bci; Bcl; Bco
www.supercoilconstrictors.com
LEARNING PREVENTS IGNORANCE OF THAT WHICH SURROUNDS YOU...AS LONG AS THE SOURCE FROM WHICH YOU LEARN IS A VALID ONE.

So you said this "Male" has locked with other females, but now we are all thinking it was a aborted follicle from this "male". How come we are calling it a female now if it has hemipene? Am I lost here? So more than likely it's a hermaphrodite if it's got hemipene, yet aborts follicles. Damn, crazy... it's like the story of the 40 year old female ball python that laid eggs without the presence of another snake it's whole life. Maybe he/she should just play with itself?? :/

Also, how could it be improperly sexed? Sexing a ball python takes what... 3 seconds? As a breeder, you have probes don't you? Probe both sides for hemipene and report back?

I probed both sides. Also, this animal was sold to be by a very reputable breeder as a male. Not going to get into that, but even if it does turn out it's a female everyone is capable of making an error. I've had a spider ball and a jungle carpet sold to me as female that turned out to be male over the years. My error was not sexing it when it (or the two mentioned above) arrived. Now a year and a half later, that's my bad.

And I agree. Takes only three minutes. But I probed it as a male. Sold to me as a male. Exhibits male breeding behavior. Weird. I am just waiting either on my vet appt tomorrow or finding someone I trust to confirm the sex. Not ruling it out that it could be female, I am just not comfortable popping adults. I'm afraid I'll crush something.
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Cheers,
Jessica Gibbs
Ball Pythons; Corn Snakes; Green Tree Python; Jungle Carpet Python; Bci; Bcl; Bco
www.supercoilconstrictors.com
LEARNING PREVENTS IGNORANCE OF THAT WHICH SURROUNDS YOU...AS LONG AS THE SOURCE FROM WHICH YOU LEARN IS A VALID ONE.

I pop....I don't trust probing....too many people don't know how to do it...no matter how good they think they are....trust me....I got the wrong sexes from 30 and 40 year veterans in this hobby/field.....I can probe or pop...I just want to see the results...(unless it's a 16 foot retic....popping is just too emotional...LOL......(for one of us)...

anyways...I'm going back to read the origional post...I looked at pic and wrote what it was...didn't read a ''male''part in it...

.

.....
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........JY

probed male...

.....how many sub-caudals is "male" ?

I probed alot of females long ago...all kinds of species...and trouble was...they say male is this count and female is that count...and most stuff I popped came out 7....and 7 was always the "in-between" both sexes.....

so....female 3 to 7 male 7 to 14....what is 7 everyone?....

.....why I pop....

I did sell a female baby amel to a guy last summer...he came back and yelled ""MALE"" whaaaaa...money back....I gave him money back....popped it in front of him and said...female...you popped it too hard and now it's "sacs" are all screwed up and pop out....you popped too hard...I showed the guy in front of table and beside me in back...they both said...female...and the guy in front ...bought it as female right away....
he didn't come back yet complaining....

some people pop too hard....
some people pop too softly....

....I was taught to start on amel corns...you can see through them before you pop.....
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........JY

I agree with everything here. That's why I am willing to accept it is probably female, some females can probe deeper and appear male. By tomorrow I'll have had someone qualified to pop and adult do it and know for sure. I feel like I'd be the person you've described above- pop too hard you force scent glands out of a female and not hard enough you may not get hemipenes out of a male. I am OK with hatchling, but I don't feel qualified enough for an adult ball.

Thanks for all the info!
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Cheers,
Jessica Gibbs
Ball Pythons; Corn Snakes; Green Tree Python; Jungle Carpet Python; Bci; Bcl; Bco
www.supercoilconstrictors.com
LEARNING PREVENTS IGNORANCE OF THAT WHICH SURROUNDS YOU...AS LONG AS THE SOURCE FROM WHICH YOU LEARN IS A VALID ONE.

you cannot really overpop an adult female that much ...not like a baby .....

....some adult males you cannot pop....some just fly right out like they really didn't know what you were up to....we /I have popped 5 foot balls...males...sometimes it surprises me it happens...LOL...(like said...some will no way pop anything out...)...

...sometimes you don't have to actually pop anything out...you can feel it/them moving from side to side...(but this is not 100%)...
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........JY

I have a big (proven many times) female here. She probes 7 one side 8 the other. So do all her female offspring!

I have not seen hemipenes on him. I don't pop. I probe, and he's probed male on both sides. He was sold to me as a male. He's exhibited male courting behavior, and I've seen him lock up with female twice. However, some people have reported to me that they've seen females do what looks like male courting behavior and trying to lock with another ball. The only female he's been in with probes female.

I can certainly be wrong about his gender. He was a yearling when I received him. I'll pop hatchlings, but not older animals. I am trying to find an experienced breeder with popping older animals in my area, but as of now, I've only probed it. I am pretty confident in my probing, but I can be wrong.

I am sure the vet can also confirm its gender tomorrow.
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Cheers,
Jessica Gibbs
Ball Pythons; Corn Snakes; Green Tree Python; Jungle Carpet Python; Bci; Bcl; Bco
www.supercoilconstrictors.com
LEARNING PREVENTS IGNORANCE OF THAT WHICH SURROUNDS YOU...AS LONG AS THE SOURCE FROM WHICH YOU LEARN IS A VALID ONE.

Hello Jessica,

Perhaps your "male" could be a female.
Although not so common in Ball Pythons it is possible that your snake is a female that has been "punched through".
A more common problem to encounter with female Diamond Pythons (M. spilota). than with Ball Pythons.
It is possible that someone's inexperienced attempt at probing could have penetrated through the tissues. Once this happens, it can cause a female to probe more deeply...and thus be mistaken for a male.
Some people prefer probing...others prefer popping....both methods are reliable if done correctly. If not done correctly, either method can cause damage.

I would be interested to know what your findings are.
(I hope you have a vet who is well versed in caring for herps...as this is always a plus)

The watery thing leaves me kinda scratching my head.
Usually ovum have more viscous albumen inside of them. Never seen thin watery ovum. So that seems a little odd. But I guess it is possible.
Other than that, I would agree with most of the others who replied. It is likely a female that was mistakenly sexed as a male.
Good luck. Keep us informed on the outcome with your vet.
Also...I would not recommend that you try making an omelette with that thing.
Nobody likes a watery omelette! LOL.

Take care,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-255-9255
970-245-7611

I agree with the "should not be that watery,clear" ...I had this happen just once...and it was more like PinHeads post's pic....like Crisco balls or blobs of fat.....mine dropped like 8 or 10 of them...all at once....so she just blew the whole batch at once....which is even odder if you consider that is both ovaries/oviducts at once???....I think so anyways....my fatty little blobs were like 3/4 inches if I remember correctly...(they're still in freezer somewhere)...

....I never had one only
......never had this large
......never had this watery....we saw like 4 of these happenings now on here?....all white and fatty ....

Dave Barker could answer if watery means not fertilized or not even viable from the start?...like not even really an ovum...just a mistake that formed in the ovary....???...don't think it sounds possible...but everything is possible as we find out....

.....

....

....
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........JY

Hi Jessica,

That definately looks like a slug to me, but it depends on whether that blood is from the snake or is it vascularization in the ovum/egg. If we are seeing the red vessels inside, then the egg has already been fertilized and it was dropped prematurely. If it is a slug then chances are that the potential for fertilization has passed anyway. So I wouldn't worry about trying to breed her this year, as we are likely passed that part of the cycle. I would quickly set-up a comfortable nesting area so she can drop the remaining slug(s) in peace. It is much harder and more stressful for a snake to pass unfertilized ovum than fertile eggs. Slugs are rougher in texture and softer, which makes them more difficult to pass. Every eggbound snake I have ever dealt with had two factors that likely caused the event: #1 poor nesting options, which stresses the female and may cause her to hold the eggs too long and #2 a slug blocking the way. When a slug is the first in line to go, it can increase the egg-binding process for the above mentioned reasons. So make sure her cage is comfortable, dark and secure and she will hopefully pass whatever is left. Don't mess with her, handle her, or try to palpate the remaining ones out. You will just complicate the process. Good luck.

Will

OK, here we go:

The vet first probed the ball, and said male. Then popped. Looked like a hemipene on the right, couldn't get one on the left, and got what looks like a sperm plug. The vet got photos of what looks like the hemipene (reason I say "what looks like" is because it seems a bit smaller than normal, but does not look like a female scent gland either) and will e-mail them to me, but for now, here's what looks like a sperm plug (it is in a wee bit of isotonic solution):

The vet also drew fluid from the sac thing and is sending it off to the lab. We are also doing a fecal sample. Finally, x-rays. I had to leave the ball with them overnight because I was unable to pick him back up before closing and couldn't stay until the x-rays were complete. So I'll report on that stuff tomorrow.

I also took the sac thing to the lab at the school I work for and put a small section of the lining under the microscope. Here's photos under two magnifications:

Those look like vessels to me, I don't know. One thing I am pretty sure of is that it isn't the wall of a hydatid cyst of the life cycle of a particular species of tape worm. You'd see the asexual structures adhered to the "wall" and there aren't any of those. The vessel things make me think unfert. egg, but lab results will confirm that.

I'll get "hemipene" photos up as soon as I receive them for everyone's judgement.

All this is just CRAZY. If this IS a hemipene and plug, and the lab reports come back as "egg", I've got a hermaphrodite. That might explain the smaller hemipene, as most hermaphrodites have reduced sexual structures and are sterile.
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Cheers,
Jessica Gibbs
Ball Pythons; Corn Snakes; Green Tree Python; Jungle Carpet Python; Bci; Bcl; Bco
www.supercoilconstrictors.com
LEARNING PREVENTS IGNORANCE OF THAT WHICH SURROUNDS YOU...AS LONG AS THE SOURCE FROM WHICH YOU LEARN IS A VALID ONE.

I caught one of my females scenting her cage about a week ago when I put her mate in and got a photo. Here's female scent glands. What we saw at the vet's today did not look like this.

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Cheers,
Jessica Gibbs
Ball Pythons; Corn Snakes; Green Tree Python; Jungle Carpet Python; Bci; Bcl; Bco
www.supercoilconstrictors.com
LEARNING PREVENTS IGNORANCE OF THAT WHICH SURROUNDS YOU...AS LONG AS THE SOURCE FROM WHICH YOU LEARN IS A VALID ONE.

wouldn't vessels mean it was fertilized? I would think that vessels would not grow if there was nothing to support growing.

typing on the ipad takes getting used to

What say you?

Sorry, I know the photos are a little out of focus. They were taken with a phone cam.
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Cheers,
Jessica Gibbs
Ball Pythons; Corn Snakes; Green Tree Python; Jungle Carpet Python; Bci; Bcl; Bco
www.supercoilconstrictors.com
LEARNING PREVENTS IGNORANCE OF THAT WHICH SURROUNDS YOU...AS LONG AS THE SOURCE FROM WHICH YOU LEARN IS A VALID ONE.

looks like a hemi to me....?

wonder...does it have 2?....

....hermaphrodite would be weird-- yet cool-- yet might never produce so...I guess it's not cool....

sorry..good luck....
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........JY

Couldn't get the other side to pop. Either he doesn't have another, or has really good control of it.

My thoughts exactly...cool if it is a hermaphrodite, sucks if it is a hermaphrodite. Probably won't produce, and he's my best looking pastel.
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Cheers,
Jessica Gibbs
Ball Pythons; Corn Snakes; Green Tree Python; Jungle Carpet Python; Bci; Bcl; Bco
www.supercoilconstrictors.com
LEARNING PREVENTS IGNORANCE OF THAT WHICH SURROUNDS YOU...AS LONG AS THE SOURCE FROM WHICH YOU LEARN IS A VALID ONE.

The cytology results of the fluid that was taken from the "object" will not be in until Tuesday or Wednesday from the lab...I forgot those take a few days.

The x-rays did not show any more of these in the animal, in the ovary or oviduct regions.

Fecal was negative for worms.

As soon as I get word from the vet about the cytology I'll post the results. Sorry to keep you all hanging.
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Cheers,
Jessica Gibbs
Ball Pythons; Corn Snakes; Green Tree Python; Jungle Carpet Python; Bci; Bcl; Bco
www.supercoilconstrictors.com
LEARNING PREVENTS IGNORANCE OF THAT WHICH SURROUNDS YOU...AS LONG AS THE SOURCE FROM WHICH YOU LEARN IS A VALID ONE.

please post wen you get results.. very interesting.
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Jeff Davis
1.0 Norm Royal Python(Rescue)
1.0 Albino Ball Python (high contrast)
2.0 Shi Tzus
1.0 Pug
0.1 Lovely Wife