Reptile & Amphibian Forums

State Senator Richard Alloway in Pennsylvania is seeking a state-wide ban on the sale and purchase (but not possession) of alligators and venomous snakes. A lot of misinformation has surfaced about this in the last week, but I want to share what I know and encourage all keepers to get involved and contact Senator Alloway's office. They are receiving a lot of feedback from the reptile community already. I corresponded with his office today, asking them to reconsider the law. They said they are still discussing it, so please get involved.

Here is the link for the current version of the bill:
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/CSM/2011/0/6934.pdf

At this point the bill has not been introduced because Senator Alloway is still seeking legislators to consponsor it.

Our reptile rescue receives weekly calls for unwanted alligators, which cannot be kept properly for more than a few years in our climate. We constantly get calls for gators which have been dumped in local creeks, or discovered around town or in vacant apartments, etc, creating bad PR for all reptile keepers (as well as a terrible quality of life for the gators). Consequently, I do support regulation on the sale and purchase (not possession) of American Alligators, but ONLY American Alligators.

I know that regulating anything in our hobby, even alligators, is unpopular with many keepers. But we can all agree that a ban on several species at once is not good for anyone. Please contact Senator Alloway's office and make your concerns known at www.senatoralloway.com. You can also find an email address in the link for the bill, which goes to one of his staff that is personally working on the bill.

Keep in mind the senator is being pressured by other groups that do not share our interests. But he needs to hear from us too, so please be respectful and reasonable.

Now is the time to make your voice heard in his office and be a part of the process.

Your friend in education and conservation,
Jesse Rothacker

Current bill banning gators and venomous

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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
www.forgottenfriend.org

"Our reptile rescue receives weekly calls for unwanted alligators, which cannot be kept properly for more than a few years in our climate."

The same could be said of Sulcata Tortoises, no? Its not really that hard to manage Alligators, and just requires space and dedication by a keeper who wants to put in the effort. There are people in the state of PA keeping Alligators and doing a good job of it. Same with PA & Sulcatas & Leopard Tortoises, and so on.

I've had a female American Alligator for over 10 years now, and she is a healthy wonderful animal to work with. I am glad that this is about the sale of and not possession of, so that at least the plan was not to strip your fellow PA herp keepers of the rights to possession of our current animals. I do not support the ban to sell these animals at all.

I had agreed with you before (years ago now) that a micro chipping situation IN THE HANDS OF HERPERS to help police ourselves to be able to identify animals that have been released would be a good idea, for all the "biggies" - ALL Crocodilians, large Varanids, Large Constrictors, Hots and so on, but I am aware that would be difficult to implement. I also know once government gets involved it often becomes a real complicated mess, so I don't have an answer for you.

At least as far as crocodilians go, American Alligators are know for having often having mellow dispositions & they are hardy even in (reasonably) cooler temps during the winter. While I understand as a rescue you get sick of seeing them as throw away animals, no reptile in the hobby is exempt, and if you want to ban via pure volume of animals dumped, why aren't iguanas & red eared sliders on that list too? (or is it just a matter of time...)

On the "protecting human safety" end of things, there have been no fatal attacks by a captive crocodilian here in the states, but there have been some by other reptiles in the trade. (I am thinking venomous snakes and large constrictors) I imagine if a law like this would come to be it would just be a matter of time before we'd see burms, rocks, anacondas, and so on tacked on as illegal to sell as well.

If you ban American Alligators some other crocodilian is just going to "fill the hole" - Years ago, it used to be that Spectacled Caimans that were purchased in droves and given away. The caimains I have, and have had came to me in that exact way. Those animals were imported in numbers and were at every show - until they were federally banned. Then gators took their place.

These Ban laws are not going to stop irresponsible people, but they will negatively affect those who ARE responsible and want to be right with the law.

Hi Ravan,
Thanks for engaging in this discussion. You bring a lot of intelligent questions to the table. Like anyone in the reptile community, the last thing I want is bigger government interfering in our lives. Supporting a new state regulation on our hobby was a hard decision to make, and not one I took lightly. Let me try to address some of your thoughts.

First, I realized if we didn't start to regulate ourselves it was only a matter of time before other groups (PETA, HSUS, etc) would try to. In fact legislators told me some groups are pressuring them for a wider ban, so I stepped in and urged them to consider something more reasonable. If we refused to take a seat at the table, and waited for other groups to work with legislators, you can imagine where it would go. By being proactive, however, we have a chance to suggest reasonable regulations with middle ground.

The reason I support a ban on the sale and purchase (not possession) of A. mississippiensis is because we are building in a loop hole for serious keepers, while making impulse sales more difficult. Crocodilians are already illegal in NJ, MD, DE, NY, and other states. But people still have them and there will always be a need for good keepers to take in "rescues" from those situations, which stays legal. Likewise there will still be opportunities to get them out of state. Serious keepers will never have a problem finding an animal that is farmed in our own country, considering that many serious croc keepers buy imported, rare species.

I know this question will not be popular, but please think it over. Does our right to own alligators really need to include the right to purchase them at pet stores and shows as easily as we can purchase corn snakes and leopard geckos? The "sale and purchase" ban is meant to crack down on impulse sales, while protecting the rights of serious keepers. And in the long run, the rights of serious keepers will be more protected with less impulse gators making the news.
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
www.forgottenfriend.org

Jesse,

A ban on sales and purchases will prevent anyone from purchasing these species even the "serious keepers." How can any future "serious keepers" obtain these animals? After your gator dies and you want another one it will be illegal to buy a new one. It is about PA fish and game doing their job. They need to regulate folks with permits, cage requirements and husbandry experience. Florida has a system that works well. All animals have caging requirements. For venomous, 1000 hours experience must be documented. Some form of this is your answer not bans. Taking away the rights of PA citizens to purchase and sell these animals is wrong. Why is it wrong? Check out the US Constitution. Requiring them to safely and properly care for these animals is reasonable. Bans are the lazy way out and not the answer. You do not have the authority to give away your fellow citizens rights.

Welkerii

"First, I realized if we didn't start to regulate ourselves it was only a matter of time before other groups (PETA, HSUS, etc) would try to."

I second what was said prior to me about this, what you are proposing, (a ban) is not regulating the keeping of these animals, its preventing it, or, should I say, preventing it from being legal.

"By being proactive, however, we have a chance to suggest reasonable regulations with middle ground."

I support being proactive 100%. I don't think what you are suggesting, NOR bans are proactive. Working towards that herper based micro-chipping, THAT would be something I consider VERY proactive. Why not push for a bill to demand ALL American Alligators sold in the commonwealth be micro-chipped? Why not All crocodilians? Why not all Venomous? I'd completely support this if it was reasonable. Sales would be made accountable because animals would have numbers - "I purchased Alligator #359378 & #507684 from X vendor on this date." If the animal shows up in a PA lake, X vendor can say, OH, I sold those animals to *insert here*

Why not offer to hold (or find someone reasonable who would hold in the herp sector, maybe multiple people) the Name of the purchaser & the animals ID number, so if one turns up, we can say SEE this animal came from *insert here* and belongs to *insert here* I am aware of the concerns over peoples privacy and fear of persecution from lists like these, but there has to be a way to make a reasonable and secure list that is in OUR hands.

Make having a valid PA (or other legal state) a requirement when purchasing one of these micro-chipped animals.

There will be buyers and sellers and people who ignore this, and buy and sell micro-chipped animals, sure. There is no way to prevent that. It would drive the cost of gators up though, if every animal legally sold required its own avid chip, and the documentation that it was chipped and came from X seller. I think that would probably be a good thing.

"The reason I support a ban on the sale and purchase (not possession) of A. mississippiensis is because we are building in a loop hole for serious keepers, while making impulse sales more difficult. Crocodilians are already illegal in NJ, MD, DE, NY, and other states. But people still have them and there will always be a need for good keepers to take in "rescues" from those situations, which stays legal. Likewise there will still be opportunities to get them out of state."

How will keepers be able to purchase them out of state if the purchase & sale of these animals is illegal in PA? As a PA citizen if I travel to another state and buy an alligator, am I not still "guilty" of purchasing an alligator? Or does the law make the sale and purchase illegal ONLY when it is done actively IN the state of Pennsylvania? IF it only bans the purchase and sale of Alligators in the state of PA, and allows PA residents to purchase the animals in other states, that makes me feel a bit different. I still don't know that I agree, but I do agree that would allow keepers who really want alligators to still acquire the animals but prevent impulse buys.

I also think that would drive the sales of Alligators in PA underground. They'll still be there, and they will still be sold, just not in public eye. Like if they are made illegal altogether.

"I know this question will not be popular, but please think it over. Does our right to own alligators really need to include the right to purchase them at pet stores and shows as easily as we can purchase corn snakes and leopard geckos? The "sale and purchase" ban is meant to crack down on impulse sales, while protecting the rights of serious keepers. And in the long run, the rights of serious keepers will be more protected with less impulse gators making the news."

I appreciate the concern, and I think I can appreciate your point of view. I'll be the first to agree that I don't like seeing Alligators in pet shops, knowing the fate of many will be a miserable death, or discarded if they survive and outgrow their owners "means", but then again, I'm not a fan of seeing ANY reptile treated that way, like all the other species I mentioned initally (Suclatas, Iguanas, RES (who are a risk of becoming, if they have not already become, a PA "invasive exotic", Monitors, and so on and so on.

I know the fate of many cute puppies and kittens people produce is possibly death in a shelter or kennel. I don't want to ban these animals though. Dog licenses don't seem to stop the impulse buys of puppies...

To answer your other questions, let me start by saying I do not want to regulate any species but A. mississippiensis. That's why I have been sharing the link to the bill with as many people as I can, and working on other ways to stop the bill if it includes more than one species.

"The same could be said of Sulcata Tortoises, no? Its not really that hard to manage Alligators, and just requires space and dedication by a keeper who wants to put in the effort."

Good analogy, but there are a couple big distinctions between a 200 lb land tortoise and a 500-1000 lb aquatic. A fenced in yard is all you need for a growing sulcatta (and an indoor area for the colder months). However an adult alligator has its own set of requirements that you know are much more involved. If someone leaves the gate unlatched and your tortoise gets loose, people think it's cute. Same thing happens with your gator, it's bad news. If you sulcatta gets too big for you to manage, call the dealer and he'll probably give you more than you paid for it as a hatchling. If your alligator gets too big for you to manage, it will be hard to find anyone willing to take it for free. There are certainly not as many homes for adult gators as there are hatchlings being sold into the pet trade.

Sliders and iguanas are great comparisons because they're the two most common species that end up at rescues. But sliders can be kept in "native species" outdoor conditions easily, or a basic fish tank indoors, and max out around 12 inches. Big difference from 12 feet. Likewise, keeping an iguana that weighs a few pounds and lives on land is nothing compared to an aquatic that weighs hundreds. Even our big constrictors are in 6 or 8 foot stackable setups. It's a huge difference from setting up a growing alligator, putting them in a class of their own.

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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
www.forgottenfriend.org

"Good analogy, but there are a couple big distinctions between a 200 lb land tortoise and a 500-1000 lb aquatic."

The thing is many captive American Alligators never get that size. I know Osceola was stunted by poor care in a former home, and she is shy of 7' long and around 140lbs.

Many female American Alligators never exceed the 8' mark. Females RARELY exceed 9' even when power fed, and many are around the 200lb class MAX.

"However an adult alligator has its own set of requirements that you know are much more involved."

Indeed. Especially if you get the larger of the 2 sexes. Tending to a female American Alligator is not that much more then a Water Monitor though, another animal that I mentioned, maybe even less. Water Monitors need even more stringent requirements to keep the ambient temps proper for them to live long healthy lives. American Alligators do well at much lower ambient temps.

"call the dealer and he'll probably give you more than you paid for it as a hatchling."

Or usually more, as even with Sulcatas, the large ones are wanted by people, especially if you get it to maturity without pyramiding the poor thing up.

"If your alligator gets too big for you to manage, it will be hard to find anyone willing to take it for free. There are certainly not as many homes for adult gators as there are hatchlings being sold into the pet trade."

^ I completely agree with this.

"Sliders and iguanas are great comparisons because they're the two most common species that end up at rescues."

I made the comparisons broadly, not ever meaning that the care that an alligator requires equals the care the other animals mentioned required. What I was getting at is that every species has drawbacks, and it seems peculiar to me to go after American Alligators specifically.

Maybe attaching a minimum size requirement to sales would solve the problem.
Once I ran a small local reptile show and was inundated with WC dealers wanting space at the show. Since show policy was no WC, that excluded most of them but there were always a few CB vendors that tried to bring baby alligators, baby RES, baby iguanas, baby common burms and retics with impulse sale pricing, that you could see would be dumped in the future. My show policy then became, all CB crocodilia and iguanas must be at least 4 ft. All burm, retics, much be at least 10 ft.All turtles must be 4". Problem solved! Pet stores arent going to stock 4' crocodilians or 10 ft pythons for retail impulse purchases. Anyone competent could still get these from rescues or other sources.

I know many of the vendors who sell these animals wouldn't be pleased, but especially with American Alligators, a 4' minimum would be a great move. Many less impulse buys for 4' gators!

Could we throw the animal pricing at shows a bit more into the equation as well? Adding on to Ed's idea above with regards to the large constrictors (Burms, Retics, Afrocks, etc), there could be a show sales policy along the lines of "morph sales only" or "high end only" for the sales of these species. I believe that the prices of most Burm and Retic morphs/cultivars, for example, should be effective at precluding novice or impulse purchases associated with inexpensive "normals" while still being available for the serious keepers and buyers. Another idea could be to require vendors that sell crocs, or large boids to bring and display one or more of their adult animals for comparison purposes. That may discourage the naive impulse buyers who wouldn't have known better, but then again it may also attract thrill seekers who may not be qualified/equipped to handle or keep such animals properly and wish to acquire am animal simply because it would be "cool to have a giant python to scare the neighbors with".

I am also wondering if these policies should be applicable to animals of Dwarfs or Super dwarf locale or lineage as well? Or only to mainland forms? In some cases, a 10 foot super dwarf retic for example, I would consider an exceptionally large adult specimen that would be quite difficeult to even locate in most collections. Just my thoughts.

The only thing that is good about this idea of selling BIG SNAKES is that it would give them a market place and that might stop people from taking them to a shelter or letting them go in nature. We were all impulse buyers at one time or another. Thats how we got started. Other animals are dangerous and there is no Ban on them. Therefore we "the herp ind." are being singled out which is unconstatutional. The reptile showes should raise money for a class action suite against the personal people who write totally bogus papers that effect laws that ruin our industry and the people that have worked their whole life for. If you can buy a horse then you should be able to buy a Python. We dont want to give them any foot in the door. If you give in on one animal,they will add more, its the begining of a black and white list. We'll end up with Bearded dragons and gecko's as long as they are bought with a permit and a 1000 hrs training. Everything is going to go underground if they keep it up. Then they will see all kinds of cruel treatment/smuggling/gang involvement and released reptiles. They'll be taking your cell phone and internet next. Just look around the world. We, America, are the model for freedom around the world but letting it go while other people have had little and are FIGHTING BACK! GET A PAIR....of Pythons too! pic DANGER "I'm next" Vic Morgan

"If you can buy a horse then you should be able to buy a Python. We dont want to give them any foot in the door. If you give in on one animal,they will add more, its the begining of a black and white list."

Extremely valid point. You can purchase a Horse, Bull, or other 1,000lb plus potentially lethal hoofstock animal here as easily as you purchase an American Alligator or Burmese Python.

Just for the sake of arguement. The size requirements solve the impulse buy problem for larger species but at the same time it hurts breeders. Breeders are not going to want to raise up their offspring to these lengths. And what happens if every state adopts these size requirements? Why not let the market and regulation control this rather then having these size requirements? I just don't like the idea that the freedom to raise up a baby whatever is taken away. Many people buy smaller species as impulse buys as well. I just think the bigger species stick out more. And smaller species are easier to place should someone lose interest in their new pet.

I also do not think that we are going to regulate ourselves. We have enough trouble trying to get people to fight back against the banning agenda. We have rule of law in this country for a reason. And some people don't follow it even with the possibility of prosecution. We try to educate and screen our customers but how good of a job can we really do at that?

As for micro chipping venomous, this was discussed in Florida and for many neonate snakes this would not be possible and could jeopardize the health and survival of certain species (eyelash vipers). The costs of micro chipping is also a concern. For species which can be micro chipped without issue I don't see (other then cost) why it should be a concern. However, will we eventually have to micro chip all of our animals so we can identify any invasive releases or other situations? Some academics are so anal about things that natives might need to be chipped. Think about it.

Welkerii

For the record, I only agreed with the size limit & American Alligators here in PA. No one in this state is breeding gators, but I agree that a size limit like 4' would end the impulse purchase of American Alligators & it would still provide people with a legal avenue to purchase them if they really wanted and had the set up for an Alligator.

I am not for any ban laws, but if they feel that they HAVE to pass something to prevent sales on American Alligators, that would be something I would agree with more then making no sales allowable.

Micro-chipping tiny animals, and tiny venomous snakes (or any tiny reptile) it does indeed sound like it could be a problem.

I am not personally against micro-chipping natives, as a matter of fact I'd love that instead of taking our right to keep animals like Eastern Box Turtles, Spotted Turtles & Wood Turtles here in PA, if they allowed us to have legally acquired (be it CB or WC) animals, even if micro-chipping was part of the requirement.

I hear you. On the micro chipping of turtles, how would you handle the neonates? They would be to small to chip. Wouldn't it be easier to just be inspected by Fish and Game? Have bag limits on wild caughts and keep track of what is in possession. You know, fish and game gets in the field and monitors collecting spots too. What do fish and game officers do when it isn't hunting season? They get paid all year. They could be monitoring herpers. DNA, micro chipping and any complicated or expensive regs just seem to much. Basic record keeping and inspection just seems easiest. If you are not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about.

Welkerii

PS: States who are thinking of enacting new regs look at other states to see what they are doing. PA size sale requirements could start a trend.

quote "As for micro chipping venomous, this was discussed in Florida and for many neonate snakes this would not be possible and could jeopardize the health and survival of certain species (eyelash vipers). The costs of micro chipping is also a concern."endquote

It would have to be a very small snake for it to be a concern as pit tags have been used successfully in newts as small as 1.7 grams with no effects on survivial.. see the following pdf..

http://www-leca.ujf-grenoble.fr/membres/fichiersPdf/miaud/miaudJakobetalCanJZool2003.pdf

Ed

Ed,

I read the paper. Although, as with many scientific papers, it was difficult to determine EXACTLY what the COMPLETE data results were. There were 474 newts marked with micro chips. And only 196 were "captured" if I read it correctly. That is less then 50% recaptured. What happened to over 50% of the newts? Mortality from micro chipping? We don't know. Breeders are not going to go for one mortality much less mortality of greater then 50%. Further, in the discussion section the authors extrapolate that the low survival of the study population was a symptom of poor climate, microhabitat and body condition. Sounds to me like they are trying to justify their high mortality.

So, I would have to say the statement "pit tags have been used successfully in newts as small as 1.7 grams with no effects on survivial" is a false statement.

In addition, when I was taking Dr. Tilley's salamander field course at Highlands, Dr. Andy Ashe was pit tagging marbled salamanders and having many problems with mortality. And, Dr. Eliot Jacobson was involved in the Florida discussions about pit tagging all venomous and seemed to think it was not a good idea to pit tag smaller animals.

Welkerii

In my opinion DNA identification and tracking offers significant advantages over micro-chipping:

1. it is minimally invasive and can be used on tiny animals

2. it can not be removed as can a micro-chip (e.g. before disposing or releasing the animal)

3. it can be used for sex determination and genetic defect identification

4. it can be used to confirm blood lines and lineage

5. it can produce other scientifically valuable data (e.g. taxonomic data)

Currently, DNA testing is expensive, but I believe the costs for DNA testing will drop considerably in the future.

Here are some links to show what is possible (note: currently DNA testing is used mostly for dogs and cats, but it can also be applied to other animals, such as reptiles):

www.ingen.bs/

www.exploredna.co.uk/dna-testing-for-pets.html

www.canineheritage.com/

www.dnaworldpetregistry.com/main.asp

I agree, if some form of DNA testing can be cost effective, it will be the best defense against the banning agenda. I think it can be done from a shed skin.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

It would just be a concern about affordability - micro-chipping has gotten quite reasonable.

A 25 pack of chips ready to go can be purchased on E-bay for 350.00$, plus 14.00$ shipping - making it about 14.00$ to chip each animal.