Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a 4 foot yellow x gray (Gulf Hammock?) Rat Snake that I'm sure is wild caught. I've had her for about 1 1/2 years/
She has taken frozen mice from me in the beginning, but now she refuses (the past year or so) and will strike at them but not eat them. So I have been giving her live which she takes with no problem. I found frozen chicks and tried them. She'll eat them without a problem.
So I'm wondering if it's OK/healthy to feed a steady diet of chicks? She's been taken 2 every 5 days for the past few weeks. Her stool looks fine.
I still try mice but with no luck, luckily there's alway another snake to eat them, because she won't.
Thanks for any feedback.

Have you tried scenting f/t mice with chicks? This has worked for me with Chinese beauty snakes - which had switched to live mice...
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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

I haven't tried that (scenting) but maybe I will. Is there anything wrong with chicks being a main diet? I have access to them at a great price.
Thanks....

>>I haven't tried that (scenting) but maybe I will. Is there anything wrong with chicks being a main diet? I have access to them at a great price.
>>Thanks....

There seems to be conflicting info regrading the nutritional value of rodents vs. chicks. I have fed chicks (exclusively for several months at a time, in the past) to a few of my adult beauty snakes, and have seen no health problems related to doing so. The snakes continued to be strong and active...

Maybe someone with some actual nutritional data / info will chime in here...
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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

I don't think there is anything wrong or sub-par with chicks at all. Many ratsnakes eat birds/chicks as a very staple part of their diets. Maybe the only thing about feeding chicks to certain snakes that I've heard are a bit looser and smellier stools, but other than that, the snake could thrive just fine on them.

Here is a link with nutritional chart info on feeder animals.

~Doug
feeder animal nutritional value

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Thanks for chiming in and posting that link, Doug. I can attest to looser stools, with a bit different color from that produced from eating rodents. I did not notice them being any worse smelling though...
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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

Sure thing Toby!

It might very well be just certain types of snakes that have a bit smellier stools from eating chicks. I know I have heard this from kingsnake (getula)breeders in the past etc...

And although kings probably do fine on chicks nutrition-wise, I don't think it is a very commonly eaten prey by any means either since they aren't arboreal in the least. Maybe chicks to their systems is similar to beans or broccoli to us humans..LOL!

I would guess that some kings would certainly take some ducklings here and there though that they find along canals, lakes and ponds though. As you know, floridana and other getula are often found in close proximity to water.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Also, in the region I live in, there are other ground nesting birds (quail, sandpiper, curlew, etc.) which ratsnakes and kingsnakes will take eggs and chicks of. I have found ratsnakes killing /eating birds and rodents in the wild - and I think that they are fairly opportunistic...
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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

I have often considered feeding a chick once a month or so to my corns as i read that they are nutritious and will brighten the snakes colors a bit. I cannot remember the book or author where that information came from and do not know if it is valid although i figure it cant hurt. My only concern is salmonella. How much of a potential risk is salmonella if i buy chicks from a supplier like ARS?

I don't know about the color issue...

I am not concerned with salmonella, myself - and mice can have it too. I have fed off a LOT of chicks to my snakes, and have never seen any signs / symptoms of salmonella in any of them...
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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

"I have found ratsnakes killing /eating birds and rodents in the wild - and I think that they are fairly opportunistic"

I would have to agree with that statement as well Toby.

Birds, rodents, eggs, and many times lizards here and there where available......it's all good!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

....And kings??.....oh HECK yeah!, opportunist's to the 100th power,......and I just LOVE working with them as well.

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Awesome floridana, Doug!

I've recently started getting "back" into kings. Here is one of mine - a 2010 Green Valley, AZ locality splendida x californiae intergrade...

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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

Thanks Toby,...

It's actually an aberrant/striped Outer Banks king(L.g.sticticeps). I have a good number of other types of kings here as well that I am also working with.

Yeah man, That's a sweet looking locality king you have there Toby!. I love all the diversity that Arizona has regarding kings, especially the extreme southeastern portion.

Here is the nice classic patterned Outer Banks female he will hopefully be breeding this year....

Here is a nice pair of high-yellow floridana....

Just two of their many offspring.

a very green/yellow female....

a more golden-yellow male......

a cool little splendida female....

I would post a boat-load of king pics, but I don't really want to swamp the rat rorum too much..LOL!.....so here is a nice little localtity-specific "greenish" ratsnake to keep it in ratsnake theme.

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Forgot about the Outer Banks kings - my getula knowledge fails a bit out east. I got Hubbs' book and am working on that though. Best of luck with that Outer Banks pair, this year!

That is a great bunch of snakes you posted there!

Can you say what locality the greenish rat is?
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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

LOL!, yeah, I knew you would realize what it was as soon as I mentioned it. And thanks for the compliment on the few kings I posted too.

Yes, Hubbs' well-written kingsnake book is the most in-depth and detailed book there is on this entire planet regarding common kingsnakes,...glad you were able to get a copy for yourself. You will REALLY enjoy reading it,...guaranteed!. As a matter of fact, both the Outer Banks kings I just posted are featured there on page 260 of the book when they where just tiny hatchlings. The big aberrant male was only 9 grams at the time that photo was taken, and the classic female was a whopping 12 grams..LOL!

The "greenish" rat I posted is extremely special!, it is heterozygous for a newly-discovered hypo morph that my friend Jim Godfrey captured. He captured the original male morph AND the normal females he bred it to in the northeastern corner of S. Carolina in Conway,S.C. within 150 yards of each other. Here is a link to the full, more detailed story on these very special snakes.

~Doug
"moonshine" morph story

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Doug, I have a strong interest in natural, locality intergrades - and you have two very interesting examples.

I remember the "moonshine" rat, and just re-read that story - thanks for the link. Very interesting locality morph - and very tempting to me as well...

I also just read the section (in Hubbs' book) on the Outer Banks kings - a VERY interesting read! Also cool that you have some famous kings in the book. I got a signed copy BTW - now we need a ratsnake version of Brian Hubbs to put out a book on all of the Pantherophis species, localities, and morphs! LOL
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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

Thanks Toby, and you are very welcome. I'm glad you like and appreciate those guy's too like I do.

Boy, I could not agree more about that Outer Banks chapter being very intersting. For that matter, ALL of the chapters are extremely good reads as you know. Yeah, I got mine while chatting with Hubbs in Daytona in 2009, and he signed mine as well. I would think he would be able to make a pretty decent go at a ratsnake book if he really wanted to, but they are nothing close to his forte like kings are as you know..LOL! He really did a bang-up job on that king book for sure.

Enjoy reading it my friend!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Thanks for all the replies. Great chart Doug, it's very helpfu, thanks.
I'm going to continue with feeding chicks to her (I bought a lot) and keep an eye on her. She really seems to like them. Plus, I get them cheaper than mice. I never fed any of my snakes birds, so this is all new for me. I even bought a large frozen Quail that my stubborn African Rock Python ate (he usually only takes live jumbo rats and recently frozen Rabbits). I found both birds taken by picky eaters, thaw quicker and are cheaper.

I've had a few snake develop digestive issues after taking chicks. No way to tell if it was caused by the chicks or not. Most of the snakes I've fed them to have done fine.

Chicks seem to get digested more easily if you remove their feet, which will often get pooped out undigested. Not sure why this is, but they do have huge feet compared to typical birds.

Chicks seem to get digested more easily if you remove their feet, which will often get pooped out undigested. Not sure why this is, but they do have huge feet compared to typical birds.

Because the scales of the feet and claws are made of chitin, the same material as fingernails. It is not digestible.
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BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
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I think chicks would be okay, but I would still try to supplement with with mice if you can. The reason being that chicks still have yolks in them, increasing cholesterol levels in the snakes, and also their bones are not completely calcified. You might not see an immediate problem, but decreased calcium levels over a period of time (years?) might cause bone density issues.

Also, the yolks dont really contain much nutritional value (only needed in small quantities) and add a lot of weight to the chick. So a 25g chick may only be around 18g. Depending on how old the chick is.

Angela
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5.6 Cornsnakes
2.2 Baird's Ratsnakes
0.1 Granite Spotted Python
1.0 Western Hognose

I personally don't like feeding a all mouse diet or all rat and use chicks and quail frequently in my feedings. The idea that rodents are a complete diet (or any single food item) is a bit silly to me. The only thing I try to stay away from is fish, reptiles and amphibians because of the parasite transfer worry. If you are willing to do frequent fecals and treat accordingly it would not be an issue.

So to be more direct, I would not feed only chicks for an extended time. I would also suggest offering a chick and a mouse together that were thawed together. That might stimulate the feeding response and get both eaten if the snake is left alone for an hour or so. Just drop them both in with the mouse on the top of the bird.

Jason