Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Howdy Boys and Girls!!!!! Due to the plethora of Drugs (all legal!!!!) I must take for my varius ailments, I have a lot of time during my late night insomnia to ponder the future of our enterprise!!! Having been at it since ancient times and still having the awe and wonder I've had since first flipping a King some 50 years ago in Orange Co. Calif., I have been contemplating where we might be going in the next few years. I keep hearing stories about people leaving the hobby, leaving the business (I never assume hobby and business are the same thing!!!). I hear the sales of critters is as bad as it ever has been.(of course being an old fa&$@, I still remember when Captive Bred stuff was only a dream!!!) Rumors have fewer people getting in as more people get out. I drove to Calif. (I now live in God's country--Texas!!!) last year and was appalled by the loss of habitat. Is anyone concerned about new stock to strengthen lines? Where will that stock come from? And will we be able to ship our snakes? And what about Expos? I haven't even gotten to Daytona yet and folks are saying it isn't worth the trip unless you are into Ball Python Morphs? What say you Gang? Inquiring Minds want to know!!!!!

Pat G-C
2 Chronicles 7:14

You should come to Daytona. It is worth the trip. Plus you can meet a lot of people that you have known from being online.

And it is not "ALL" Ball pythons. They still have more colubrids and other reptiles than any other show.

The best part is the social activities after the show at the Hilton hotel. There we can meet and greet many people. Great time sitting down to dinner or breakfast with fellow herpers . Or just cruise around the lobby meeting new people through people you might already know...-IT's a big hotel.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I don't think anyone is going to breed "wild lines" of locality specific Cal Kings if there's no market for it. There may be some localities that sell well, but not all of them do.

I agree with Rainer on the shows. I went to my first show in five years. It was in San Mateo. There was an excellent variety of colubrids and lizards. There were far less boa and python breeders than colubrid breeders. The show was in April 2010 and it was well attended.

I haven't been to the Daytona Expo in ten years, but from what I understand, it's still the best place to see the widest variety of reptiles and amphibians in the hobby.

Tim

Vegas-locality king that I found last year:

Third Eye

What happens when we end up with weak lines and nothing new to chase the $$$$ to produce? We will be going the way of the Tropical fish hobby, I'm afraid. It's nothing we can do anything about. Kerby, afterall, can't supply everyone! It's human nature. But the Nostalgic part of me longs for things we rarely see anymore. BTW--I love your pics each year of your trips out to Vegas!!! I will always remember the first deserticola I found 20 miles from town!

Pat Glazener-Cooney
2 Chronicles 7:14

Thanks! And here's a pic of my first deserticola, found just outside of the city.

Wow! That is a beautty!
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www.Bluerosy.com

That is a fantastic looking find Tim!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

That's my new favorite Cola Tim! Beautiful find!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

After 20 years, I'm trying to reduce my cal kings to just a few. So yes, I'm getting out of snakes. It was fun, it was good, and I will still have a few special projects though. My snakes come out of brumation in a couple of weeks.....and I have no desire to start the feeding regime again.

Kerby...
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I will keep some special projects like these.

Kerby...

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we will have to organize an expo for the guys that have got out of breeding, lol...
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odelay odelay odelay hee hoooo...
heeeeya huhhhh!
~Back in the saddle (Aerosmith)

"we will have to organize an expo for the guys that have got out of breeding"

Maybe Wayne Hill can work on making that a reality and charging $300 per table and have an ex-expo breeder's reunion for everyone that got out of the business. As you would walk down each isle of the show, the ex-vendors would all be leaning back in their chairs in front of their very bare and empty tables with their arms folded in front of them gazing off in front of them with a bewildered blank stare..LOL!!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Maybe Wayne Hill can work on making that a reality and charging $300 per table and have an ex-expo breeder's reunion for everyone that got out of the business. As you would walk down each isle of the show, the ex-vendors would all be leaning back in their chairs in front of their very bare and empty tables with their arms folded in front of them gazing off in front of them with a bewildered blank stare..LOL!!

Better still at only $300/table do the complete setup with banners et al. Cover the table with mislabeled empty deli cups.

"Super dwarf bateater x lemonblast BP triple het for Carpall, Coelens and black back BHP." SOLD

or since this is the king forum.

leonis thayeri x ruthveni x okatee corn x everglades rat. poss het for splendida, cali king and black rat.SOLD
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BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
0.3 P. c. sayi Kingsville X Stillwater red bulls
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 D. corais Yellowtail Cribos
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

HAHAHAA!!!

....well said!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Some recent developments:
My friend with the Mom & Pop pet store is closing shop for good this March. She is going to send all her mouse customers my way. She just could not make enough money is this poor economy to cut it.

I have another friend who has gone and bought several dozen ball pythons and corn snakes and is hoping to make money with breeding them. Heh...But I am not saying anything; why rain on his parade...

My snakes are just a little hobby, not a business, so I can't speak much to the difficulties of late mainly due to the onset of the next Great Depression...at least with the housing boom having gone bust hopefully there will be less destruction of native habitats by developers...

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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Well, nobody will need to re-stock the wild with any snakes if there is no habitat left to support them, no matter how many are produced and let go. any habitat can only support a certain amount anyway....*shrug".....this part is truly sad to me.

I have never thought of being into snakes as just a money commodity anyway, like they are ingots of gold like some in the hobby do, so the market will not affect me nearly as much no matter what. I will also roll with whatever prices the market will bare on the snakes I have, rather than [bleep] and complain all the time like I see so many do as well.

I have absolutely LOVED owning snakes since about 1967, and no matter how bad the economy gets, or anything else, I really don't see myself EVER not owning any snakes. They are simply too big a part of my life to drop. It seems I eat, breathe and live snakes to be quite honest..LOL!. The comradery and friendships I have been involved with over the years is absolutely priceless too, and I am just very thankful to have these good friends with similar interests as mine.

I agree with Rainer and Tim on all points too, the shows are more of a fun "get-together" for me as opposed to only going there to look or buy snakes, even though sometimes it can be a crucial mission to do just that!..LOL!

Anyway, I am certainly not EVER getting out of it, although one day I might very well cut way back on the number I own and breed though. Nothing stays the same forever as alot of us older peeps know..LOL!

In any case, ROCK ON! everyone, and enjoy whatever the hobby/business can offer while you still can, because it is getting harder and harder to enjoy a great hobby in this world when the hobby involves the icky, slimy, creepy name ...SNAKE!.....at least that's how the ignorant general public sees it anyway.......

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Markets fluctuate, and shift and renew. it's all part of the ebb and flow. I think many people getting out of the buisness can actually be a good thing. Remember there are new herpers being born everyday. Much depends on the economy, and of course our law makers! Overall I still see the hobby surviving we may have to just adjust to the changes a bit. There are new morphs and combinations coming all the time. As for the wild populations that may be a different story all together if steps to concerve them aren't implimented. Yet at the same time I cringe everytime the Gov impliments anything!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Right now is a buyers market! Anyone thinking about getting in or just contemplating that special snake they've always wanted, NOW is the time to do it! I know i have been buying up all the snakes I have always really wanted to have but never could afford. As people get out and the markets stable, supply will also decline and so prices on many snakes will go back up. Many over inflated snakes like ball Pthons will continue to loose value becuase they are just too over priced as it is.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

To me the future is designer morphs outside the protected status of recognized native types. They will have to be exempt from protective regulations as a basically domesticated manmade morph. Habitat destruction will never end. Wild forms will be functionally depleted in the wild, and protected until they eventually dissapear. When the San Diego gophers (or insert your make and model) become protected, we will have designer versions that are so far removed from wild stock as to be worthless for reintroductions or any resemblance to the protected natives. I think they will be unable to shut down the hobby breeders working with these specialty lines. We will have “fancy” snakes that can be outrageous eye candy, or designed to cleverly mimic a “classic” locale made famous by Mother Nature. The responsibility for maintaining the integrity of the genetics of native types will fall on zoos and publicly funded conservation breeding, for which I can see very little resources being allocated. So I do think the future is bright for hobby breeders, and as stated there are new herpers being born every year. I think the new morphs make the shows exciting because every year there will be new things to see. Imagine how many times would you go back to see exactly the same unchanged thing? The hobby will keep the buzz going and keep pulling in new blood.

"To me the future is designer morphs outside the protected status of recognized native types. They will have to be exempt from protective regulations as a basically domesticated manmade morph."

That sounds nice, but it simply isn't the case. In Ohio morphs are regulated the same way as wild phenotypes (PIT tagging for snakes over 18 inches, annual fees, permits, inspections, etc.). Even a Black Rat Snake hybrid is regulated the same as if it were a pure Black Rat Snake. I believe morphs are also regulated (or banned) and treated the same as wild-type native snakes in Georgia and South Carolina as well.

Tim

Because we allow them that type of authority. It is idiotic and would not stand up to a court challenge. They would be unable to prove your guilt to possess that type of snake, because you do not. If confiscated, what would be it’s fate? If it can not be returned to the wild, it is something else, period. Just my butt headed opinion, of course.

>>Because we allow them that type of authority. It is idiotic and would not stand up to a court challenge. They would be unable to prove your guilt to possess that type of snake, because you do not. If confiscated, what would be it’s fate? If it can not be returned to the wild, it is something else, period. Just my butt headed opinion, of course.

Based on what legal precedent? The states have always had the legal right to ban certain animals. It doesn't mean it's a good idea, but if a law had to be a good idea to get passed, the US Code would 1/2 the size it is or less.

If it is illegal to posses a black rat snake in Ohio, and the law does not carve out exceptions for morphs, then morphs are also illegal to posses. A court won't overturn that law just because it's a bad law; it is a legal law regardless of how stupid it is.

Justice Kennedy's famous dictum that you have to sometimes uphold laws you hate and strike down ones you like is a true statement if you want to have any sort of consistency in jurisprudence.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

I agree with varanid.

In Georgia ALL snakes are illegal to keep. Even though they are in every petsmart, pet shop, newspaper etc.

The law as it is written does not break down into subsopecies. So all kings, milks, ratsnakes are illegal. They just turn the other cheek and choose to look the other way because they know it is ridiculous. So they only ENFORCE native getula, ratsnakes like corns and blackrats, etc.

So if one ever decides to challenge the law in a "supposed" unlawful seizure due to misidentification. They have the "true" law in their back-pocket protecting the agnecies that enforece the subpecies determination.

In other words we are at their mercy in whatever they want to do and challenging them will result in losing.

These laws are instilled are just as ridiculous in other states. Like calif which started their "protection" os species and have a bag limit. This "protection" had no studies, no PROOF that any of these species are in danger. And when confronted in court they say there was but years go by inbetween court and in the end they say the studies done were lost.... BUT THEY KNOW NO STUDIES WERE EVER DONE AND THEY ARE LYING!

This is really about gov't agnencies creating new jobs and those people who work for them have to protect their jobs. Otherwise if there are no laws they don't have a job.
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www.Bluerosy.com

>> The law as it is written does not break down into subsopecies. So all kings, milks, ratsnakes are illegal.

UGH! At least in texas the state regulations go into subspecies level. Thank God for that.

BUT THEY KNOW NO STUDIES WERE EVER DONE AND THEY ARE LYING!

>>I've never seen any studies done that comprehensively assess herpetofauna of a whole state. I'd strongly suspect it's next to impossible to do, at least without breaking the bank. Can you imagine trying to survey something the size of Texas to get a good grasp on the population of each of the 150ish species/subspecies of snakes we have? And I don't know how many amphibians and lizards and chelonians.
It'd be a blast to try though
>
>>
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

actually a survey would cost next to nothing. You take a hectare and use that info for the avaliable habitat in the state.

I recall Brain Hubbs Mountain Kingsnake book explains it. I don't remember the details.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Too many assumptions, particularly in states with lots of habitat types. If I surveyed an acre or three here in the panhandle it'll tell me crap all about what's in Dallas or Ft Davis (different suite of herps). On a different level, a hectacre of swampland won't != to a hectacre of mountain or prairie or...
It could be done, probably,but it'd be labor intensive.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

Raymond Ditmars was a hobby keeper of reptiles and an illustrator. He got hired by the Bronx Zoo to draw pictures of bugs. He donated his personal reptile collection to the zoo and worked his way up, without any formal education, to be in charge of mammals and insects. He wrote some of the greatest reptile books ever and discovered many of the tricks still used to this day to keep reptiles alive and reproducing in captivity. He was instrumental in founding the Antivenom Institute, which resulted in the first production of antivenom in the USA. His work and his hobby helped save thousands of lives. There have been many medically significant discoveries made from snake venoms. This would not be possible without being able to properly collect venoms and keep these snakes alive in laboratory settings. Ditmars contributed to all of this. This is what hobby keepers are capable of. Without our contributions, which we do for free when we share our maintenance tips, these valuable creatures would be bulldozed for shopping malls. Now we know that the cures to Alzheimer’s disease, cancer, etc. may one day be found because some people chose to try to keep them alive and study them. For free. So the hobby keepers are responsible for saving hundreds of lives, curing diseases and saving the world!!! That’s what I’m talking about.

"Because we allow them that type of authority."
That's hilarious! I'd like to see you try to change a government regulation on wildlife. You have no idea how hard it is.

"It is idiotic and would not stand up to a court challenge."
There have been several people that have been busted with Black Rat Snakes, who have hired a lawyer, and who have lost in court. In fact everyone I know of who tried a "court challenge" on this has lost.

Raymond Ditmars was doing his thing about 100 years ago. Times have changed. It's hard to get hired at a zoo without a degree. It's one of the first things used to screen applicants without ever meeting them.

Tim

And that's a complete non sequitur with your first post. How possibly useful we are has no bearing on legality. You can argue that it *should* but that's not the same as arguing that it does, and it is certainly not relevant as to the legality of a law.

Nowhere did I argue hobbyist or amateurs could not be useful for the advancement of herpetoculture and herpetology. I feel the opposite is true. This summer I'm conducting a mark/recapture survey on two species in an attempt to figure out local population densities (D. punctatus and T. nigriceps)--that'll be an amateur's contribution to the field as this is not my profession nor do I have a biology degree. If it goes well I'll try a dietary study on the T. nigriceps next year because there hasn't been one AFAIK. Supposition is that the diet consist of small inverts. I'd like to see if the supposition is true and see if I can narrow down what *type* of inverts it eats.

But that doesn't change the fact that your first statement--that these regulations cannot stand up in court--is 100% false as demonstrated by actual case law. I don't want people thinking you have a point and actually trying it because they'll risk getting fined/going to jail and the hobby will have another black eye.

And I've interned at zoos; it's nearly impossible to get hired without a B.S at least. M.S's and/or hands on experience is preferred.

Hobbyist have a long and storied history of significant contributions to natural science; I'd give...possibly a few toes or fingers for states to start using hobbyist to conduct regular surveys of populations of herps in state parks--can you imagine the wealth of knowledge that could be gained by having 1-2 volunteers with some field ability doing survey's on the evenings and weekends over a year, using drift fences and board lines and using mark/recapture techniques if they did that in EVERY state park and national forest or grassland in Texas? It makes me drool. It wouldn't be prefect but it'd be a lot more knowledge than we have now.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

It's not perfect, but it could be worse. if the economy ever picks up, the trade will do.

Of course I'm not purchasing new anythings right now myself for several reason (I'm increasingly worried about the stability of our nation given our budget and the political unwillingness to solve it; if TSHTF I want to be able to pack up and move quickly and easily).

I can see one day only keeping 2-3 snakes...but not anytime soon unless it really does all fall apart
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

and as far as restocking the wild...
it won't matter if there's no wild left.
Collection isn't (usually) the main threat; the loss of habitat is, and if I have a line of locality pure getula it wwon't matter since that locality has become a shopping mall.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

"and as far as restocking the wild...
it won't matter if there's no wild left.
Collection isn't (usually) the main threat; the loss of habitat is, and if I have a line of locality pure getula it wwon't matter since that locality has become a shopping mall"

Perfectly stated!!

You mean a hectar of virgin suitable wild habitat won't equal a hectar of shopping malls, townhome divisions and parking lots???

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties