Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Bob, first off. It seems you may not be qualified to understand what is being said, or even have the ability to think and come up with your own. It appears all you do is copy. As you make it about other keepers and not about the animals.

ITs very very simple. We are working with reptiles. As such, they gain their metabolism externally for the most part. Which means how they function is totally based on what they can obtain externally. That includes, energy and metabolism.

Which means, they do not have a confined area to perform in, metabolism wise. Which is abundantly clear. Reptiles do not reach a narrow set size range. They always include a range of reproductive sizes in any one population. For instance, Blackrat snakes can reproduce from about 3 feet to well over six feet. They can lay clutches from one egg to well over a dozen.

Even in one local, the average adult size is variable depending on the year/s and how they supported the reptiles. You know, amount of rain, amount of sun, population density, prey density etc etc. So some years are more stressful then others.

This is normal with all animals but with reptiles, it more then effects the population and its density, it also effects grown and reproduction and the sizes they do this at. This is an advantage for reptiles over mammals. They can maintain populations in substandard conditions. Try to think about this, I am not sure you have the ability but try.

Now to us. My results do not equate to yours, and there is very good reason. I do not keep my monitors like you. So, with that and only that in mind, there is no reason for our results to be EQUAL or the same.

So the question becomes, what do we do different that equates to such different results? You do admit to using different procedures, and you admit to different results, yet you do not consider what you admit. Think about this if your able. Again, you have not shown that ability.

First off, I do not live in a cold area. YOU FRIGGIN DO. You most likely keep your monitors in a basement that is friggin cold, by my standards. You add heat, year a round, to some degree.

on the otherhand, I live in the desert, its fu$$in hot here, year a round. Even in the winter, we get your summer temps. So we actually have to cool our monitor room, year a round. This year, our cooler went off, for three nights, hahahahahahahahahaha other then that, its on all the time.

Which means, we work from a base of ambient heat. and you work from a base of ambient cool. With that in mind, there is no reason for us to do the same things or recieve the same results, the reason is, we can't. We have totally different conditions to work with. And we will recieve different results, even a brain dead ant could understand that. can you understand that?

Next, we have a facility, that is, a building thats 1500 sq. feet, indoors and another 600sq feet of attached outdoor thats accessible from the inside, as in, indoor/outdoor. We also have another 25 outdoor cages that range from 12 sq feet, to 400sq. feet.

consider, that because we live in the desert and its hot and we have all these cages to work with, we may, just may come up with something different then you and your cold weather friends, working out of a basement or bedroom. Do I really have to hit you in the head with a stick?

I use to have a a lot of respect for you. But lately I have lost that. You have become just another person that cannot achieve what we have, so you deny we have. As in, I cannot do it, so you didn't either. What are you thinking, you do not have our facilities. How the heck could you????

Well Bob, I bet you cannot produce 75,000 snakes a year either, but i know several people that do. The reason is, WE do not settle for having a minimual cage setup. We move to parts of the country that will support what we want to accomplish. We build facilities to accomplish the goals we can forsee. That makes us DIFFERENT THEN YOU. That allows us different results then you.

And we get crap from (insert adjective of choice here) like you, who have five cages in a basement. and complain that they cannot do this or that because they have a real job. By the way, whats a real job, one you love, or one you have to do. I think a real job is one you love. So Bob, I am sorry for you.

I learned about heat by placing ackies outdoors, I watched them copulate in the sun, it was 108f with ground temps in the 130's to 150's. They did so for hours ALL ON THEIR OWN. The roof of that cage, 20' by 20' by 10' tall, is made of 2" angle iron, the ackies would walk the two inch shade lines, but stayed out in the heat. The cage also has two feet of dirt over the whole cage. So they could escape down if they wanted. Hmmm I set this cage up exactly like a spot in Mt.Isa, where there were ackies. This is how you learn. Not in your basement box.

So, the advantage I have over you and Doug Price, a very nice fella by the way. is I have a different set of conditions to work with and learn from.

Also, I do field work with reptiles and learned to observe. To observe is to see and record. Not to know or understand, to observe and record. Which leads to this, when we see something the animals do, I do not judge it, but instead, test it. Whatever they do is "REAL" whatever we think, is "not". So when we tested conditions and had small odatria reproduce at four months, that was REAL, what we think, has little to do with actual results. So what we do is retest and apply to other species. That we did.

By putting our thoughts or theories to the side. You can then observe and record. Then test and recieve results. Not, i think this will work, how friggin naive.

Which leads to this. You do not believe in the animals, you sir believe in you and those folks you pick to agree with. Not the results or potential, or actual results of the animals. THis is where I lose respect for you. You are just another insecure keeper. Its common Bob, you keep them crappy, get crappy results then say, see thats what they do. As if you are some standard. Your not. The animals are the standard. that you do not see those results is all about you, not the animals.

More on why I lose respect for you is, you do not investigate. You do not test your own animals, you do not look in the field, and you did not come here to see WHAT I WAS DOING. How I tested etc. You only ask others like you, other wanta bees. Sir, what do you think so much of yourself?????? how can you say anything without "INVESTIGATING"

All you say is, I bred frillies and beadeds, and three or five species of varanids. Dude, thats not much. We have had more world firsts then you have bred species. What are you thinking???? In one year we produced over 20 species of varanids alone, and torts, turtles, and snakes.

Let me see, i bet our one outdoor cage is the size of your herp room? what are you thinking?

What bothers me is, folks like you are all about people, fred is great and he says, john is great and he said. Bob, thats stupid. How you succeed is to go past people and build facilities that work with many people. Make it not about the person. Thats what all meanigful endevors do. So I built buildings and cages that work, I can be dumb as a stone and still out produce you. You guys really do have dirt for brains. I made a facility, and you build a little cage. Sir you are foolish. hahahahahahahahahahaha what are you thinking.

From this facility, I report results, that is actual results. We have so much in that area, there is no need to make theory or suppositions. I report results, what the heck you do with them is indeed your problem. So you whine like little babies.

Sir, only a fool thinks you can do the same thing over and over and recieve different results. I have different results, because I do thinks differnet then you. And other cold weather keepers. Keep in mind, cold weather is not were these animals come from.

Our weather here, is very hot, but not nearly as hot as it is where pilbaras come from. So our base conditions are much closer then yours. Its about heat you (insert adjective of choice).

Its simple to understand your total lack of understanding, you do not leave your house. how can you know anything. AGain, I went to europe, I went to australia, I have been all over the reptile world. I live in a area known for reptiles and I have been keeping and breeding all manner of reptiles since 1962. And you say what!!!!!!!!!!u bred beadeds, so the frog what, there are baby gilas in my yard, they live here. and that is meaningful. LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION.

The point is, you found a way to have some success, but do you test other ways???? Do you have the ability to test other ways???? Are you willing to risk losing you animals because you need to understand their abilities and potentials??? Naw, your just a whiner that grips because he has to have a real job. Sir that is pathetic. If you had any drive, you wouldn't have to have a real job. Cheers

p.s., consider my post is in direct response from your constant attacks about what you believe and what you don't(you calling me a lair).

I know you start at the opposite end of the temp spectrum based on where you live. These conditions are also the opposite of most average keepers so yes your results should be different. I know you have achieved alot [congrats] and that has nothin to do with anything I have ever said, I know the amounts you produced and that isnt even an arguement period. I to once had great respect for you but somehow diminished over time seeing the posts of you basically bi_ _h slapping kids that are new and doubting the positive contribution UVB has on odatria. Anything I have posted are through observations and experiance focused on a given species. You see quanity has never been my goal and never will, I do things differently based on what I see the herps doing and making adjustments. Yes I have failed with some things over the years and experimented the next time around with the same situations and succeeeded. Heck the record beaded egg hatch was an experiment. So I guess what I have a hard time understanding is why you just keep reflecting on your thousand eggs and set ups geared for more of a commercial production and realize for once that the average newbie is probably not looking to replicate what you have done and chances are they may just want to set up a pet and enjoy it, isnt that what alot of folks do? Thats pretty much what I do and breeding is a byproduct that supports the hobby a bit. You dont need a boatload of varanids to enjoy them, you dont need 140 temps to keep them healthy and thriving/breeding either, thats a choice you give them. I have an old pilbara female that is now 10 years old, she has produced many good eggs/babies and probably will again soon here. She has never seen temps that high and is in great health and most likely the oldest recorded specimen in captivity. Now what the hell is wrong with that? Ive bred small girls and yes they do ok, fact is one of my best producers was one of my smallest girls so Im with you on that. I hear so much yet that is from 25 years ago about people thinking that if they get 3 odatria they will end up with 1.2 if housed together? Where does this crap come from? The only way to change the way people think is to speak up on a forum like I have. I also get people that think UVB is not needed in odatria and for the short term its not, for the best interest of your monitor and long haul it is, not because I want it to be but because it is proven. I have seen especially in pilbaras what happens when the girls cycle and it is not in place, not really in my collction because I have always used it but others.The larger species you work with do fine without UVB but odatria are different, they cannot ingest adult rats . They can with adult mice but its not a good normal staple diet. So when I speak of UVB I am useing odatria in referance. Heck my beadeds never needed uvb but they to ate medium size rats like the larger monitors do. So this is really my point the rest of the subjects you pull into your post sre all you. And with all your nasty jabs accusing me of being jealous of YOU? ROTFLOL. Dude you either have the Rock star syndrome going or are delusional, Im just posting to see keepers of odatria do better.
Bob

Bob,

One thing I notice about you is you fail to understand truth in context.

About the UVB and females.

Frank's temps allow the animals to consume huge amounts of food and therefore access the calcium needed. If they are kept at high temps and not allowed all the food they need they will have deformities and such, especially when at growing ages. In fact Frank was just recently talking about how when he would have to leave for a week or so at a time he would have to turn the heat off to slow them down while he was gone. Frank has talked many times about large amounts of low value food. If they consume enough food, and are kept at temperatures that support appetite and the ability to properly process that food they get all the calcium they need to grow, reproduce and live long lives without UVB.

Now compare that to you, you keep them at mediocre temperatures, probably at temps that keep their metabolism at a middle level where they either don't consume enough food or if they do aren't able to process it and thus you "need" UVB to bandaid the fact that their husndadry doesn't allow them to absorb enough calcium from their diet.

So in the context of the way you keep your animals UVB may be beneficial but in the context that Frank keeps his animals it isn't.

As far as your longevity record, 10 years? I'm not impressed.

Bob, I do not need the respect of people who come and attack me. I don't care who they are. You keep insinuating what I have reported is wrong, then you say, you don't want a pissin match, Your the one who starts it. I did not come here and insinutate your not doing what you say your doing. That was YOU thats doing that. And you do not want me to defend myself??? You need to question that.

When you were new, you called and we had great conversations. Then all of a sudden your one of those attacking kids. Sir, thats your problem.

ALso, I don't go around emailing your friends and making your naive insinuations, those folks have been here. it only makes you look bad.

That you believe dealers is again your problem, and that you can be played with by people from other countries is also your problem. Remember, people from other countries, love to have fun playing with naive americans. Its fun to them, and it should be. That your not grown up enough to see that is silly.

Bob, grow up. Its just that simple. If you want to understand anything, Investigate it. Not heresay and game playing. Dang, you must never leave your house.

I respect you as a breeder, but some people don't like the way you talk to them and find it annoying...especially Asians. Something you find true in other countries; they don't really tolerate it much.... Cheers!

Wow, this should be a soap opera.

But before I'm attacked too, the following is off my own limited experience, and mostly off research.

Monitors, namely the dwarf species, are from extremely harsh conditions and they are made for that environment. They are absolutely incredibly designed animals, as anyone who has kept them would agree. They can survive on minimal resources, so when you give them more than what they need, they flourish, which might just be the reason they adapt to captivity so well once given those needs. People have raised and bred numerous generations of ackies on a diet solely of crickets. And larger monitors can thrive on a diet of just rodents (which Frank has proven beyond a doubt). They are made to survive on so few resources, that they do amazing on a simple diet and set up. Frank has also posted on this. You tell me they have the simple life in the Australian outback? Keep dreaming. I'm positive that UVB has a positive impact on monitors, but isn't an absolute necessity. Saying a very active and prolific monitor doesn't benefit from UVB is doubtful to say the least. Even nocturnal geckos benefit from UVB, Uroplatus won't even reproduce without it present. I'm not saying that monitors are like geckos, I'm saying that they get use from it, I'm sure a Varanid would too.

Now I can respect anyone who keeps monitors and understands that they aren't a leopard gecko.
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Jason

Hello, thanks for making this about monitors. First off, UVB and UVA, are forms of HEAT. What monitors and even Geckos are looking for is heat.

They all use heat to support metabolism. The problem with captivity is, THE FEAR OF HEAT.

In reality, UVA AND UVB is being avoided as much as possible in nature, The development of skin that protects against UBA AND B penetration. The behavioral adaptions to avoid sunlite, Geckos anyone. ETC ETC UVA AND UVB cause cancer, because they penetrate deeply. ITs to be avoided, by us and animals. Just look at all their adaptions. REPTILES SEEK HEAT, not UVA AND UVB.

In this case, geckos are kept in little cages, in Europe, I observed monitors being kept in LITTLE CAGES. The actual reality is, You cannot use temperature ranges in LITTLE cages that include high heat.

As an example. If you have a usable 150F hotspot in a gecko cages thats a couple of sq feet, your going to heat the whole cage and kill the animal. The same goes for small varanid cages.

So these fine folks, use a bandaid approach and instead of using larger cages where a greater heat range can be used, they use UV bulbs.

In my personal experience, When I went to Europe, I visited several zoos and private collections. They all used minimum resources. I was amazed at the small size of their animals.

I saw 14 year old ackies, that were 14 inches long. And at Rotterdam zoo, their breeder female lacie was barely 3 ft. I kept saying, those are adults? those are adults?

What that told me was, yes they kept their monitors successfully, but in the lower end of the animals potential.

There are many precieved differences with I do and what others do. What is missed is, I do not use our animals or our results as goals or guides, nor so I think, THAT IS WHAT A X SPECIES IS. I have and do use WILD NATURAL varanids as a guide.

In this case, a 14 inch ackie is a small adult when found in nature, and I have seen literally hundreds of yellow ackies in nature. A three foot old female lacie is a small female lacie. Which means, they recieved poor support. Not poor thinking about life or death, but poor when compared to the average successful adult in nature.

Then we come to captivity. Many folks say, in captivity, these animals should all reach the higher or maximum areas of their potential, as they have no natural complications such as predators, parasites, droughts, prey shortages and optimum temp conditions.

The truth is far from this. In most cases, varanids are not supported to even a minimum degree.

So I investigate the range of potential these animals have. That is, showing the amount growth and reproduction they can achieve, and all you get is jealousy and grief from insecure folks.

I have NEVER told anyone their CHARGES, must rearch sexual maturity as X age, or have X amount of clutches, or live X amount of years. I simply report what they are capable of, and many people poop their pants. Again, that is not my problem. That is theirs.

About who likes me. I am not here to be liked. Why would anyone come here to be liked. If that were the case, then nothing would ever be accomplished.

The reason is, people hate being shown, what they are doing is not so, hmmmmmmmmmm good. of course they don't like that. Why would they. So I do not attempt to be liked, I report results. If any one cannot handle that, they simply should not be in the business of keeping living animals. Their deaths are the telling us, WE ARE WRONG.

As a hobby, we are murdering the crap out of varanids. So no, I could careless what these folks think. Again thanks

Hello, thanks for making this about monitors. First off, UVB and UVA, are forms of HEAT. What monitors and even Geckos are looking for is heat.

They all use heat to support metabolism. The problem with captivity is, THE FEAR OF HEAT.

In reality, UVA AND UVB is being avoided as much as possible in nature, The development of skin that protects against UBA AND B penetration. The behavioral adaptions to avoid sunlite, Geckos anyone. ETC ETC UVA AND UVB cause cancer, because they penetrate deeply. ITs to be avoided, by us and animals. Just look at all their adaptions. REPTILES SEEK HEAT, not UVA AND UVB.

In this case, geckos are kept in little cages, in Europe, I observed monitors being kept in LITTLE CAGES. The actual reality is, You cannot use temperature ranges in LITTLE cages that include high heat.

As an example. If you have a usable 150F hotspot in a gecko cages thats a couple of sq feet, your going to heat the whole cage and kill the animal. The same goes for small varanid cages.

So these fine folks, use a bandaid approach and instead of using larger cages where a greater heat range can be used, they use UV bulbs.

In my personal experience, When I went to Europe, I visited several zoos and private collections. They all used minimum resources. I was amazed at the small size of their animals.

I saw 14 year old ackies, that were 14 inches long. And at Rotterdam zoo, their breeder female lacie was barely 3 ft. I kept saying, those are adults? those are adults?

What that told me was, yes they kept their monitors successfully, but in the lower end of the animals potential.

There are many precieved differences with I do and what others do. What is missed is, I do not use our animals or our results as goals or guides, nor so I think, THAT IS WHAT A X SPECIES IS. I have and do use WILD NATURAL varanids as a guide.

In this case, a 14 inch ackie is a small adult when found in nature, and I have seen literally hundreds of yellow ackies in nature. A three foot old female lacie is a small female lacie. Which means, they recieved poor support. Not poor thinking about life or death, but poor when compared to the average successful adult in nature.

Then we come to captivity. Many folks say, in captivity, these animals should all reach the higher or maximum areas of their potential, as they have no natural complications such as predators, parasites, droughts, prey shortages and optimum temp conditions.

The truth is far from this. In most cases, varanids are not supported to even a minimum degree.

So I investigate the range of potential these animals have. That is, showing the amount growth and reproduction they can achieve, and all you get is jealousy and grief from insecure folks.

I have NEVER told anyone their CHARGES, must rearch sexual maturity as X age, or have X amount of clutches, or live X amount of years. I simply report what they are capable of, and many people poop their pants. Again, that is not my problem. That is theirs.

About who likes me. I am not here to be liked. Why would anyone come here to be liked. If that were the case, then nothing would ever be accomplished.

The reason is, people hate being shown, what they are doing is not so, hmmmmmmmmmm good. of course they don't like that. Why would they. So I do not attempt to be liked, I report results. If any one cannot handle that, they simply should not be in the business of keeping living animals. Their deaths are the telling us, WE ARE WRONG.

As a hobby, we are murdering the crap out of varanids. So no, I could careless what these folks think. Again thanks

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Fr, UVB is part of there existance on earth, yes they try to avoid over exposure but in reality they do get plenty of UVB wheather they want it or not [in the wild of course]. And that uvb is detrimental to bone formation, through calcium absobtion which is only allowable through certain levels of vitamin D-3 in the blood. We know and it is safe to say that the Helodermids and varanids large enough maintain large enough levels of D-3 from consumption of whole bodied prey items like adult rodents [D-3 from liver and calcium through dense bone. Problem is odatria are not rodent eaters as a complete staple diet, this is where UVB plays a major role in maintaining females that are productive in egg laying. Once again my girls put out as high as 10 clutches per year, so a female glauerti can produce 80 eggs per year. This calcium to shell those eggs comes from somewhere, either through good diet in marrage with UVB or their bones which leads to there demise. Once again its a choice for keepers as well as a choice for the future of there female odatrias. One of the big reasons people fail is they are doomed from the start if they believe UVB does not matter. This is my opinion.
Bob

I`d like to make a few comments on the topic of UVB and varanids; I understand this genus evolved around 20 something million years ago, I assume that in that time period, they have always basked in direct sunlight, mainly, but not exclusively, to thermoregulate, at the same time, they absorb the UVB rays through the skin, and it`s metabolised into D3, it`s automatic, no "thought processes" are needed.
My guess is they`ve evolved it and stiil use it, because it`s beneficial to them. As we all know, they live in some of the harshest environments on the planet, they don`t always manage to feed regularly on vertebrate prey, that`s where UVB irradiation helps, it`s at least a "backup", for want of a better expression. (I`ll make this in the medium/large monitors, in the wild).
I accept that here in captivity with those species in particular, we can adjust the diet so they get much of that without access to natural sunlight. Personally, I still provide UVB emmiting lamps (if only as a precaution), absolutely no evidence the lamps are harmful when used according to the manufacturers instructions.
I`m just giving my own opinion, which we`re all entitled to do. (I`m still learning, and open to suggestions, even after all these years, but aren`t we all)!?

its been more then a decade now that we breeders have relised that heat is the primer triger to metabolisation...even the most demanding species thrive without uvs.

this question has never been about how benificial uv is...the question was is it needed? answer NO!!

uv bulbs best suit comercial interest then the lizards they are suposed to help...its a muliti million $$ industrie.

To a certain extent that`s true, many of them aren`t that good at what they`re supposed to be good at (emmiting UVB in reasonable quantities, as in natural sunlight).
But unless you read the studies that have been done, on the benefits of using UVB irradiation, in whatever form, whether natural or artificial, you cannot give an informed answer on that.(Of course, you can say you prefer not to use it, that`s entirely your choice)!

as I said I am all about science (real science) I know how test are performed...none have conclusivly prouven any benifits to reptiles...it cant be mesured with any degree of accuracy...results are speculative or worst theoritical.

I am sorry this is not the debate I wish we both have...it is a dead end as it will serve you in no way...if you keep an open mind you will learn new ways that will no dough improuve your husbandry to a level unsuspected...the starting line is to forget about uvs...then move on with contemporary husbandry...everything els is retrograde...you are in a good place to learn.

no one is arrogant here...we say it like it is...not to offent but to educate and share...never take words personal...they are not...but try to understand that we have 1000s times debated on many subjects, it becomes repetitive and exusting.

Link us to some of the studies. Because I read a few and they were very poorly done. For instance, obtaining a few croc monitors of unknown history, taking blood tests, then exposing them to Uv bulbs and retaking bloodtests. Then judging that as good.

We have tested UV over and over, and as long as we provide our indoor monitors with a GOOD heat range, we see no problems in actual development, growth and reproductive success. That sir is the real test for this forum. Not made up numbers that are not applied to an actual result. please help here and show us something of actual value

Frank I told you once, your best argument in this old "UV or Not discusses" is the picture of your Golden Greeks (you posted few weeks ago on the other forum).

Thanks I will give that approach a try.

This is really great, in a debate, your using a losing tactic. That is, your making assumptions. You say this and that does this or that. But with no actual proof.

What I offer is actual proof. We have and are now, raising many many many monitors, with not added UV as in bulbs or sunlite. They grow well, strong colorful and make lots of offspring. We have done generations of many species of monitors.

That is actual proof. how you explain it is entirely up to you. It actually needs no correlation to the distant past.

You approach is, in theory, UV is needed, good theory, now you explain our results as well as many many others successful results.

Also egg laying is not that stressful in the area of calicum use. Fast growth is. This is were the real concern is. fast growing babies double their entire skeleton weekly. Thats a real need for PLACED calicum. And we raise all our monitors indoors with incandesent bulbs and we do so successfully.

So please explain our success. If you want I can show many many examples.

"I respect you as a breeder, but some people don't like the way you talk to them and find it annoying...especially Asians. Something you find true in other countries; they don't really tolerate it much.... Cheers!"

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Oh great now Asians are mad at him.

Posted by: FR at Sat Feb 19 09:59:00 2011 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by FR ] [ Follow this user in Connect ]

Bob, I do not need the respect of people who come and attack me. I don't care who they are. You keep insinuating what I have reported is wrong, then you say, you don't want a pissin match, Your the one who starts it. I did not come here and insinutate your not doing what you say your doing. That was YOU thats doing that. And you do not want me to defend myself??? You need to question that.

When you were new, you called and we had great conversations. Then all of a sudden your one of those attacking kids. Sir, thats your problem.

ALso, I don't go around emailing your friends and making your naive insinuations, those folks have been here. it only makes you look bad.

That you believe dealers is again your problem, and that you can be played with by people from other countries is also your problem. Remember, people from other countries, love to have fun playing with naive americans. Its fun to them, and it should be. That your not grown up enough to see that is silly.

Bob, grow up. Its just that simple. If you want to understand anything, Investigate it. Not heresay and game playing. Dang, you must never leave your house.

I wonder if you even read my post [and understand it] before making a knee jerk reply? The couple of points I have made totally contradict what you drill into people. UVB being a biggie and the group, social sexing through groups. This isnt hard to understand for most people but if you can sex a 3-4 week old glauerti then that would tell you that is was hatched at a given sex NOT determined by socialization with siblings kept in a group. I have seen this and not just once or twice but enough to know what I see. If you take this as an attack then you need to realize my posts are aimed at the truth not the way I want it to be or what you think it to be. Heck it would be cool to put 3 in a group and end up with 1.2 but the odds are against it IME with odatria. To do this is a great selling point if nothing else but I dont try to play the salesmen role when it applies to what I love to do and my hobby for over 25 years now. I spent enough time in Abu Dhabi [hotter then AZ] and have seen what happens with herps and really every living thing when the temps are so high like 125F everyday and as high as 140F. And when the season change they had brought the daytime highs down to 95F how the herps react so Im not in that dark on this. And 10 years as a pet pilbara may not be impressive but this is a girl that hs put out 7-8 clutches a yr. and has no knots in the tail and straight forearms that funtion. She does eat small adult rodents but not as a staple. I guess if you have ever kept pilbaras and really for a few years to take them egg to egg you may appreciate a 10 yr old girl that is all good after seeing what happens when they are cycling and throwing out so many eggs. As far as over seas friends? Well I feel I know the ones I have emailed back and forth for years now and have visited in person well enough not to be played with like you are suggesting. 1/2 my family lives in Germany so I go there from time to time and visit some of my herpin buds while there. You seem to act like I bought my first anole yesterday. Lizards only in one form or another have been my hobby for over 25 years now, this includes helodermids for 14 yrs, frillies for 10 and odatria varanids for 11. Doesnt take thousands to have fun with them.
Bob

bob I dont know you...in fact iv never read your posts, even this thread iv only read crosslign, and this rapid read lifted a few red flags...first thru the years I was never able to prouve beyond dough the uv is needed for any lizards in my care...however I can say that amevias have been the most sensible of all lizards to heat depravation...one couls easaly assume they need uv to thrive, however given proper heat they do exelent for many generations...so again uv is questionable???

my point of interest in this thread is as follow...about sex ratio? perhaps you havent read between the lines? when you have any group of monitors on hande it becomes obvious witch is what...placing a randome trio together is dumb luck...but alowing a dominant animal with lower ranking animals give more chance for a match...its easy to spot rivals and make changes.

after some time it becomes second nature to spot posible pairs and match them corectly...iv tryed to show this to friends but they just dont get it...regardless of my efforts they dont see what I do and keep doing the same mistakes.

dont transfer your frostration on those trying to help...it is not the mesengers fault...even a novice can spot the 5 males in this group as they have color dimorphism...I see the same in monitors but most cant see it, why?

hahahaha you don't read or care to attempt to think.

First, I can and have shown endless proof that UV bulbs are not needed. As have many others. In our case, apples to apples.

Second, you never questioned me about what you call social sexing.

I do not know what these animals do. All I can tell you is. We have raised groups from hatchling, for twenty years and we have always recieved both sexes. That is groups of two on up. But mostly in the three to five area. Mine you, I also produced thousands of colubrids and they were not like that. We commonly recieved all one sex from clutches, but it would even out. We commonly raised individuals in groups and had them develop into all males or all females. Not so with varanids.

having done that, I have asked others to keep an eye on that as well and as you have read here. It occurs at a rate greater then luck. Could I be lucky, yes, but for that long, no.

If you would actually research, It was Pete Kuhn that actually brought this to the public. I saw it, but I was not willing to go public. As the public is full of too many folks like you.

All in all, what they do does not matter. The reason is, for me. I have had no problems getting pairs. With that in mind, I work on things that help me. I do not sit around worrying about what already works for me.

In our history if captive breeding, no one have been consistantly successful at sexing neonates. Many have come up with one way or another that worked in the short term.(or they said it worked) But then silently disappeared after it failed. Remember, it only takes one wrong to fail in the short term.

This has occurred time after time and method after method.

So in practice, we all say, you cannot sex them as neonates.

You and I do understand, some species like gilleni and caudolineatus, are so friggin easy to sex its funny. But those two species are not all of odatria. So it boils down to this. Some species can be, and some individuals of other species can be sexed at a young age, with many methods, But when we say "they" in means monitors as a whole. Then we have to say, we cannot, because we will be wrong with some species and some individuals.

The point becomes, what occurs in actual keeping. i report what we see or observed. Which is true about the sexes. Do I know what they actually do. nope, and frankly I do not care. The reason is, what I do is applied and not theoretical. I am confident that when we raise two or more hatchlings together we will get both sexes, why, because we have. As a breeder, I do not need to go any farther then that. If and when that fails, then I will have to find another way. Until then and after twenty years, I do not have to change.

The problem with science as it is today, and many varanidphiles, they dismiss the exception, that is, if it does not fit what they theorize, they dimiss it. Which sir is wrong. its the exception thats important when making rules. Particularly when it must be actually applied.

What you completely miss is, I am not a varanid person. I am a herper, I reported our results as they occurred. I do not know or care what was suppose to be normal or accepted in the varanid world. Or amoung European keepers, what they do is great and they are welcome to do that, whatever it is. You see, I do respect what others do, but I do not have to let that control me.

As I have said, I am interested in monitors, I report what they have done here or I observed in nature. I am not concerned what others do. nothing against them.

I just find it odd that I am suppose to dimiss what I see and have recieved as actual results, because you or "nameless others" have not seen it or agree with it. To me Bob, that is worthless for me and for others.

So I ask, have you investigated what you disagree with? Did you come here or even ask to come here and see if what your read was true? no you didn't, you simply go by your failures, and maybe others failures, and then say, if I/we cannot do that, then you cannot either. Will sir, let me say this and this is egotistical. I am 63, this year I did 33 pullups in one set. Can you, and I do not care how old you are. That is bragging by the way and I am proud to be able to brag on that accomplishment. To set my lifetime pullup record at my age.

what that means is, if I was going to let others tell me what I can do and say and what I cannot do and say, Well, I would be one worthless individual.

in this case, I would be one worthless individual if I let dingdongs like you and your friends tell me what I can do and say. i report what I have seen, and we have seen it in far greater numbers then you. Or numbers that you can even imagine.

All I ask of you is, put up or shut up. This is a forum of the actual keeping and breeding of varanids, not the theory of what I cannot do does not exsist. This is a forum of what works in a cage, not in a science paper that will never be applied.

So Bob, put up, put up your results.

In my mind, all your going to do here is sink yourself lower in the minds of most. As I will bring out the guns, the actual proof. And what will you do????? oh my friends are #1 and they say. hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Bob, this is about You and I, keep your frogging friends out of it. They are only going to get you in trouble.

I will admit, these conversation will be good advertisement for you. Is that what your after.

Again, put the heck up or shut the heck up. hahahahahahahaha at least have some fun or be a little creative. come on, I am used to very creative folks like Jobi. hes a genius. What about you?

Hi Bob,

I don't have a huge amount of experience with odatria monitors, but I do have some. Over the last 10 years, I have purchased 5 groups of dwarfs. Group size ranged from two to four animals and included ackies (yellow, german red and Retes red) and glauerti. In four of those five instances the groups developed into animals of both sexes. The only group which developed into one sex (all females) was a trio of red ackies that I purchased from Pete Kuhn (Python Pete) at the 1999 (I believe) expo. In this instance, the determining factor may have been that Pete purchased a large quantity of reds from Frank just prior to selling them to me, and my babies may have been raised to that point in different groups, and they were all over a month old when purchased, so their gender may have been established already (a possibility).

In two of those instances, I acquired 2 fresh hatchlings and raised them together and got 1.1. In another instance I purchased 3 fresh hatchlings and raised them together and ended up with 2.1 and in the last glauerti purchase, I bought 4 babies and raised them to 3.1. Now, I understand that it may have been luck that I ended up with a female in 4 of five instances, but I know of several other keepers that have had the same experiences. That is, purchasing hatchlings, raising them together and getting both sexes.

I appreciate both perspectives on this issue and in fact greatly appreciate the exchanges between you and Frank. Its not often we get two people that have had as much success as you fellas engaged in such a lively debate. So, thanks to both of you guys. You have made this forum interesting again.

Will

Bob,
When you were first getting monitors from Joe, isn't it true that you had to keep returning a bunch of them due to calcium problems?

You keep talking about longevity, as if FR and longevity in odatria is mutually exclusive. As far as I can tell nearly all of Frank's current monitors are old bags. In fact he just lost an 18 year old female ackie who was reproducing her entire life.

When FR talks about his large facility and how many he's bred many seem to take that as being a braggart. What you are missing is it has nothing to do with bragging and more about scale. He has a larger test sample than you, simple as that. The results from thousands is more signifigant than the results of a few.

This is just like high school again, and part of the reason why I dropped out and earned my diploma threw a GED program.

Now Nate has a really good point Bob, he's had experience with many species, and hundreds of individuals.

Frank might not have "people skills" (no offense Frank), but he's proven he does have "varanid skills".

Why UV is important in my eyes, as Bob said, its part of their natural environment, so I try my very best to get my animals outside when the temps are fine. Even the leopard and fat tailed geckos I've have seemed to enjoy it. But hell, I'd enjoy it if I lived in a 20 gallon glass tank with newspaper! Animals are built to survive off of the land and use its resources to survive. What better thing to use than the sun? Now is it needed, no. And its been proven. Is it helpful, there's evidence saying it is, but its not proven.
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Jason

Hi Jason, I had to wonder what people skills has to do with me reporting results. I also have to ask, what is a person with good people skills do when other folks simply attack and attack and continue to attack. You know, turn the other cheek over and over and they still keep at it. As thats what occurs here.

All these people need to do is ask a question, read my relpy then move on and do what they want. Or stop the attacking and actually offer a decent reply.

consider, Bob is exactly like the others. He does not offer superior results, or proof. or even a familiarity of the subject, you know me. He like the others just keep saying, but people say this and that. AGain, nameless people say this and that. No offense, but that is really poor people skills and a really poor method of discussion.

In a way, hes saying, I do not want to compare my results to yours, but other people who I cannot mention think your wrong.

Does that sum up this discussion? So how should I approach this using proper people skills?

Well said Frank.

I really couldn't blame you for going back at them. I'd rather not argue on what both of our definitions of people skills are, I see your point and I'd much rather leave it at that.

And personally, if they guy I'm buying any reptile from offers high quality and reasonable prices, how polite they are aren't a deciding factor. I deal with complete a**es on a daily basis, as many other people do.

I'm just glad nobody here claimed "He started it first!"
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Jason

Hey Wait Jason. I did claim, Bob started it first hahahahahahahaha, he did. hahahahahahahahaha

I explained and explained and explained, as nice as I could in the begining, then slowly tack, which i am not gifted with an abundance of, and patience wore off. I am very patient. hmmmmmm with animals, not so much with people. Well some people. hahahahahahahaha

The actual problem I have is, I do not practice politics on these forums. In this case, it would be balancing the people and the animals. I am a defender of the animals. Which automatically makes the people distant. So forgive me for that.

And yes, I do have hidden anger issues. That is, look what is happening to all the animals, because people want to play their silly people games. This is the case with Bob. He will not look at actual captive results, he just keeps going back to what my #1 friend said. or he thinks he said, I say that because he sure misquotes me all the time.

This is also the problem with academics. They somehow think their work applys here in the field a applied husbandry. While common sense would lead one to believe that. In reality it does not work. Not yet.

Academic field work, is great in that context. But has proven over decades to be a total failure applied in a captive application.

Which is what Stefon is struggling with. The using of scientific papers in realitionship to actual captive husbandry.

The reality is, Those theories if successfully applied would then be of value and would no longer be theories. You see, Stefon, dang I hope I spelled that right, extrapulates what ancient varanids did, he or the authors do not know what they did. heck, science does not even have a handle as to what current varanids DO now. for instance, how many wild copulations have been observed by field biologists. consider, we see thousands here. And many thousand in the captive world, yet it goes unseen in nature. That sir is very telling. how about nesting, how many wild varanid nests are reported? how many are there nesting NOW in nature, tens of thousands, tens of millions, yet it goes unrecorded, in any number. So how do we know what they are doing in nature, when very basic importnat behaviors like copulation and nesting go unreported.

You see, When I do field work, pairs, copulation and nesting are what I look for. Then I record behavior. Most if not all scientific papers record common events and predict copulation and nesting without observing it. Check it out and prove me wrong.

Now what are the problems in captivity?, pairing, copulation and nesting. What do we work on, pairing copulation and nesting. hahahahahahahaha without those, nature does not recruit and we get no offspring. Rant #5790a thanks

I think this has been covered by Frank in the past, but I think some reiteration needs to be said once again. The title of this forum is Kingsnake Monitor Forum. Quite frankly (no pun) Frank has done a monumental job of staying on task. He has always kept it on the subjective of monitors, now people take what he says extremely personal and I think that's what causes the back lash.

In a society based on fast driven results such as ours is, we are expecting Frank to give us a blueprint on how to do this over night, but what he has done with his statistics and his "bragging/arrogance" is that he has showed us how to sit back and read the animals, things change constantly with living creatures and no one set of rules applies. There are so many variables that take into effect like geography,species, space, etc etc.... that in turn reflect the level of success you have. What he does in Arizona won't work for someone keeping the exact same species in Wisconsin, thats why he challenges us to read the animals and adjust to the point where the animals are telling you things are ok.

my .2