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Herpetoculture: Let's not lose it.

Sunherp Feb 18, 2011 02:28 PM

The recent discussion about where our hobby has been and where it’s going has got me thinking. Dell and I alone spent almost 4 hours on the topic over drinks last night, so I’m sure there are others who are still trying to take in and analyze many of the ideas presented in that recent discussion, too. Overall, I found it sobering.

The 1980s and 1990s saw the heyday of herpetoculture. Re-reading publications from that time by guys like Bob Applegate, Ernie Wagner, and Dick Bartlett is like a ride in a time-machine. Things were different back then. We had forms of triangulum what we can only dream of acquiring now: micropholis, dixoni, blanchardi, ect. Imports regularly came in from Latin America and individuals made trips across the border to collect the animals they wanted. Many books and articles from the ‘80s and ‘90s also speak of the ready availability of forms like syspila, stuarti, and gentilis.

Fast forward to today. Where have they all gone? When was the last time, honestly, that anyone has seen those forms offered? What about oligozona, conanti, taylori, or celaenops? How many times per year are multistrata, polyzona, or even annulata available? I can reliably state that the number of multistrata offered to the public in the past year has been less than a dozen animals. The same goes for captive bred gentilis and syspila. I can count on two hands the number of people in the US seriously working with the North American forms and about the same number who are working with some of the more obscure Latin American subspecies.

What happened to the interest in these beautiful animals? Did the ready availability (real or imagined, as it may have actually been) produce a sense of complacency among hobbyists that what was available would always be available? Was there a feeling that there were so many forms so easily obtainable that it was a waste of time to work with them? Or did people just lose interest in favor of a smaller subset (Hondurans, nelsoni, etc.)… especially when the money was in morphs? Even the forms that maintained popularity have been hit hard – the hardy and prolific Pueblan Milk (L. t. campbelli), for example, is almost never seen in pure form, almost always having obvious visual signs of nelson, hondurensis, or even L. getula. Finding pure representatives of just about anything in the Colubrid market can be a chore, let alone acquiring a variety. So much has been lost.

So, what do we do about this? How do we ensure that the animals so many of us care about will be available in 10, 15, or 50 years? I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but I’m going to continue my efforts with more obscure, harder to find triangulum with a renewed vigor and sense of purpose. Verifiable, locality stock will remain my major focus and I will pursue that endeavor with enhanced passion. My only suggestion (or plea, if you will) is that you keep what you like and be passionate about it. Don’t let your choices be swayed by market value. That’ll always be come and go. Enjoy the animals for what they are. Let your interest guide your collection. Whether that means “stepping out of the box” and jumping on that oligozona, gentilis, or celaenops that shows up in the classifieds, or standing firm by refining your collection of amelanistic nelson, if we don’t want to lose the what’s available, we have to take some positive action. We need the Milk-a-thon, ID contests, and in-depth discussions on genetics. We need field reports, photos, nostalgic stories, and a better sense of community. We need people to work with animals they genuinely care about.

Reignite your interest!

-Cole

L. t. syspila - Perry Lake, KS

L. triangulum - Salina Cruz, Oaxaca

L. t. gentilis - Golden, CO

L. t. multistrata - Pennington Co., SD
Image

Replies (55)

JYohe Feb 18, 2011 02:57 PM

....locality has some followers...more than you actually think ...alot of people actually DO NOT even know about this site...really...alot of herpers do not go online for snake talks....alot of people do not know about shows...or go to shows at least...they still go to pet shops...I know...I sell stuff to the pet shop and they triple the price and sell it all....yes...they even advertise ON here....!.....I sell them good stuff too sometimes....and sometimes I sell them good stuff just as generic...as in "corn"....even though genetically it may be so rare there are just a handful in the US...yet noone pays me the value..so I gave up trying years ago...I sell...corns...period...no label...

milks......as pure as I can get them....I have campbelli...1.2 of them...they look like pure peublans to me....they have all the right look to me...hopefully they are pure....threw them together yesterday.....hopefully I finally get good eggs....got duds last year a few times from both females...wheeee...getting closer....(used to breed 3 clutches a year from other Ltc...this batch won't go for me...)...

I have 3 locality of reds...yes we all know where they came from...Thanxx Jeff....along with the 1.2 pales from him...maybe his ugliest ever made...LOL...small too...just stopped growing...(together yesterday first time ever)......

I have OC tempos...St Mary tempos...(together yesterday )...
I have male hypo calvert, said to be pure?...no females yet....
I have a male Tyrell...unfortunately I give up on these....I'll keep my male as a cool pet...I might have given up on getting a female...
I have sinaloan generics that look pretty good
I have amel nelsoni ...
I have amel ruthveni, male locality and pure it's said, but female is generic so it loses it's worth...I have a normal male locality,different locale...
I have a pair of hypo hondos...and a tri color het VP and hypo...

so I have some milks here.....still like the ball projects better.....think honeybee het caramel and pastel ghost het caramel....in the belly now, x 2 each....LOL...

good luck.....!!!.....we try around here....but the number of REAL snake people aka herpetoculturalists,,,,is real low compared to the number of morons that own a snake....

...
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........JY

snaketaboo77 Feb 18, 2011 03:26 PM

I have a pair of hypo hondos, and a tri color het you said . Can we get some picS?

JYohe Feb 18, 2011 04:00 PM

LOL...3 cameras and a vid and never use any...I am with critters all the time...yet spend no time with electronics...I never even hooked up a vcr or dvd player...(it's not hooked up here right now)...!....I am good with snakes and rodents...bad with el.........wait..I just don't care about electronics...

anyways.....funny also you asked about hondos....there are so many cooler snakes here....and as far as I think...wife wanted the spastic hondos...LOL...I like them but they hate me...tri REALLY Hates me...I am giving it to a friend soon as I see him...

sorry...

they look normal....male hypo looks silver female black and tri is cool....from Markley? in NY....

....
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........JY

snaketaboo77 Feb 19, 2011 12:41 AM

Thats to bad , I would love to see some pics. of that het. tri- hog, PATTERN, and belly shot pics. (trade info. for computer lessons) lol,lol

Sunherp Feb 19, 2011 10:29 AM

Jeff,

I know there are a lot of milk-heads who don't post here... Some are just not into internet forums like you said.

I'm also aware that your interests in snake keeping are broad and that you've got a solid group of NA milks to boot. That speaks volumes in itself, but the fact that you're willing to devote the time and effort to milks (or Colubrids in general) at all in addition to your "business snakes" says it louder!

-Cole

Shalomjeru Feb 18, 2011 03:34 PM

Perhaps we could learn from the American Cichlid (Aquarium Fish) Association. In the late 60's and the 70's many of the Central American, South American, and species that didn't sell for very much began disappearing from the Hobby as new and Expensive forms from the Rift Lakes of Africa (Malawi and Tanganyika) became available. To counter these circumstances the club began encouraging Breeders to set aside aquarium space to maintain populations of species that otherwise might disappear. So while I Bred and sold Electric Blue Haplochromis (Adults were $500- $750/pair! Fry sold for $25! Remember-this was 1971! I bought a brand new Corolla for $1900 that year!)I had three 15 gallon aquariums with adult and babies from Pelvicachromis thomasi that I could sell for $0.50. I, for one, would rather have a good looking Red Milk than a multi-thousand dollar Python!!!! At the same time I don't begrudge the Python Breeder from focusing on the snake he/she loves best! But if we are motivated by what brings the most $$$, then we will lose forms that once were common. In fact that has already happened. Perhaps if we each made a commitment to maintain a low end favorite we could at least have those forms still available that are important to us. Just a suggestion--

Pat G-C
2 Chronicles 7:14

Sunherp Feb 18, 2011 04:00 PM

Exactly. The American Livebearer Association and American Killifish Association have similar programs. The Dendrobatid frog-keeping sector of herpetoculture has been heading down that path, too. They're making an effort to register and maintain groups of frogs with known origins under the Treewalkers Internation/Amphibian Survival Network (TWI/ANS) program.

Thanks for the input.

-Cole

DMong Feb 18, 2011 04:34 PM

"if we don’t want to lose the what’s available, we have to take some positive action"

First off.....GREAT post Cole!

In my opinion it needs to start with way more people appreciating what makes the natural types that have been around for thousands of years what they are, and learn more about them and their natural history by reading good books regarding them. The internet has transformed too many into lazy people that only look at pictures for the colors/patterns that they want to breed without even knowing or understanding what the hell they are looking at first.

As a matter of fact I see countless folks that continually want to be a BREEDER and they don't even know the first THING about the snakes themselves, or even what the heck they eat, or the conditions they prefer. We are in times of "instant gratification" in hopes of making some money as opposed to more folks wanting to know about THE SNAKES themselves.

Yes, the genetic "hodge-podge" snakes that are being bred now days aren't doing anything but creating a "monkey see, monkey do" effect.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Sunherp Feb 19, 2011 10:17 AM

Doug,

I agree. Knowing something about the snakes themselves goes a long way in enhancing a person's appreciation of them. I think too many people have lost sight of what's important - the animals.

-Cole

DMong Feb 18, 2011 04:37 PM

those are sweet animals you just posted too bro, and GEEEZ!, that gentilis is absolutely STUNNING!!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Sunherp Feb 19, 2011 10:18 AM

--

gerryg Feb 18, 2011 04:50 PM

Being relatively new to the full time keeping of milks I can't really speak of the past... but the future for me was pretty much sealed when my son gave me one of his Black Milks... 5 years later I finally realized there was no point in resisting the urge any longer. I wanted, and got, a pair of polyz as well. Not to mention finally seeing a male BM that I just couldn't pass up as a mate for Jade (my female BM).

Now, despite having told myself I'd limit myself to 3 pairs of snakes, I find myself looking for 3 more pairs... all of which fall into that "where are they now" category of which you spoke. When I first picked out the other Central/South Americans milks I'd like to have I had no idea how difficult pure specimens were to come by... some day I'll find those L.t.abnormas, pure hondos and andesiana. I'd like to add micropholis to the list as well but I know they'd be well outside my price range... not to mention outside my new range limit of 5 pairs... lol, yeah right!

Point of all this... I intend to do my part to find the more obscure Central/South Americans and keeping their lines as pure as the day I found them because I do enjoy them for what they are not what I can make them... well that's if I don't include striped BM's as a "what I can make them"... something too funny about such an ultimately pointless endeavor to resist.

As for your passion of NA milks Cole... there are some great species I'd like to have as well but I know my real limits. While I do intend to breed everything I have and will someday have, I never want to think of the snakes I have as projects instead of pets... seems like a good way of burning yourself out... I'll stick to things south of the border.

5, 10, 15 years down the road... if I'm still alive... the lines of milks I have will be as well.

Gerry

JYohe Feb 18, 2011 05:47 PM

....you want help getting MORE pairs?....

I average 200 snakes at any given time...
I work fulltime job...ouch..
oh...and 2000? rodents....
I do wash and cook...and the yard...well...till I pay someone to cut the grass in the mid-hatcjing season sometimes...
my record probably was around 800 eggs one year?...(hatched just 500 maybe...800 is duds and all....lots of corns.....

so.....sounds easy....3 pairs can turn into 10 pairs at one show....you'll see....

have fun...
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........JY

gerryg Feb 18, 2011 07:02 PM

how very easily I could become you or a number of other fine folks I've encountered here... but I do know my limits... I always want to see the original pairs of snakes I have as pets... take them out and handle them on at least a twice a week basis, give them names... breed them only in hopes that a few others will enjoy my passion for what they are... endow them with qualities that many would view as anthropomorphic.

All sounds a little stupid I know but I can't wait for the time when I can take my newest BM and polyz out to wander about the house or yard (under a watchful eye)... allow them some semblance of freedom... allow them to be what they are even for a short period of time... when I can't do that for them I'll know imo I have too many... pets first and foremost.

Anyway, enough of leaving myself open for ridicule on my views

Gerry

DMong Feb 18, 2011 06:44 PM

Well said Gerry,...I like your way of thinking!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Shalomjeru Feb 19, 2011 12:04 AM

Yo Gerry!!!!!
You have got to get in touch with Shannon Brown!!!! He has an incredible collection of hard to find Milks.
Good Luck!!!!

Shalom,
Pat G-C

gerryg Feb 19, 2011 04:34 AM

Thanks for the tip Pat... I'm aware of Shannon's extensive collection... and I do believe he knows what I'm looking for... perhaps someday we will do business but right now I have other leads that I'm working on.

Gerry

Sunherp Feb 19, 2011 10:23 AM

Exactly what I'm talking about, Gerry! A person doesn't need a collection of a 150 animals to help preserve what's "good" about this hobby! Your enthusiasm is precisely what I was hoping to hear about.

-Cole

KcTrader Feb 18, 2011 09:02 PM

Cole Great Post!

First off let me state that I have been following KS for a long time without actually getting involved in many discussions, whether it be time restraints or just too busy with life and animals. I have been keeping snakes on and off as time and life has allowed for 20 yrs. (there was a 8 yr break at one point, reproduced myself)I am in my mid 30's now and have finally found how this hobby fits into my life.

Back on track, I spent this winter gathering as much information as I can on L.p.knoblochi. Not so much the place where they can be found, but more so the lineage of the animals we have in the hobby today. I found talking(well actually countless emails) with various breeders of these snakes, that there one question to me was "Why? why would you want such a diverse collection of L.p.knoblochi? You will have a hard time selling them." This wasn't said by all but was mentioned on more than one occassion.

My answer to that is simple. L.p.knoblochi was one of the species that I couldn't afford in the early 90's but was one I always found myself going back to on the WANT list. I like them period! I keep other species L.t.sinaloan,L.p.pyromelana(generic),L.t.hondurensis(Hypo Tri-Color),L.t.campbelli,L.ruthveni(Amealco-amel and aberrant/striped)Lystrophis pulcher.

But the majority of my collection is L.p.knoblochi. I would like to thank some of you on this forum for leading me in the right direction to finding some great additions to the collection.

I acquired a pair of F3 and F2 animals from some of Buzz Ross's original animals. I traced back an aberrant animal all the way back 5 breeders and the snake has traveled from coast to coast more than once.( I have saved emails from each person) I found some F2 animals from the original 8 that Dave Barker brought back from Cascada de Basaseachic in 1986. I just love the fact that when I look at these snakes there is this whole story behind each one that really makes each one that much more special.

So as far as I am concerned these specimens will be here to reproduce and stay true to their lineage, and for maybe 20 yrs from now there might be that 20,30, or even 40 year old looking for animals they read about on this forum just like I did this winter. I take this hobby as a hobby and not a business and if it costs more to feed and keep warm than what my return is on the hatchlings then so be it! It's a hobby, and hobbies cost money!

Also, if anyone has any information you would like to share please feel free to contact me. BTW, Doug your next on the hit list to help me with meristics of these guys, just have to find some time to gather my questions.

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Jimmy Tintle

Shalomjeru Feb 19, 2011 12:12 AM

Jimmy, love the knoblochi pic!!!!! My favorite Ariz. Mountain king is knoblochi!!! And my favorite Cal. Mountain king is zonata pulchra!!! Jason Nelson has an excellent pic of pulchra over on the kingsnake forum.

Shalom,
Pat G-C

KcTrader Feb 19, 2011 10:40 AM

Pat Thanks! I like CA Mtn Kings also....just haven't decided to step into them just yet. Right now my direction hes been towards L.p.knoblochi and L.ruthveni. That may change but I have so much more to learn about these two first...
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Jimmy Tintle

Sunherp Feb 19, 2011 10:37 AM

Again, what a refreshingly nice thing to read. Your interest in the animals and efforts to track down their lineage is inspiring!

-Cole

KcTrader Feb 19, 2011 10:44 AM

Cole, did they take the "pyromelana" out of Lampropeltis pyromelana knoblochi and classify it as Lampropeltis knoblochi?

If so, could you point me to the studies pertaining to that decision? Thanks!
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Jimmy Tintle

Sunherp Feb 19, 2011 11:11 AM

Jimmy,

There was a study, which I don't have handy at the moment, which suggested that there may not be any gene flow between the populations. The "study" consisted of a single animal, though, so it's been highly criticized. If I can find the .pdf, I'll shoot it your direction.

-Cole

KcTrader Feb 19, 2011 11:20 AM

n/p
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Jimmy Tintle

pecoskid Feb 18, 2011 10:07 PM

Last weekend I was at the big show in Arlington. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is the biggest show in Texas. I saw only one alterna, it was on display at the herp societies eduacational table (not for sale). I was there for set-up Friday evening and and again for set-up Sat morning but saw no graybanded kings, the signature snake of the state (excluding the rattlesnake of course). I know there are many keepers of alterna in the state and many of them currently have graybands for sale. Why were they not there? I believe the answer is because most customers at that show are not interested in buying them. The grayband breeders are tired of banging their heads against a wall while trying to sell their wares. It is a great show, and I enjoyed it, but find it sad to see so many colubrid breeders apparently feeling the need to cast their colubrids by the way-side to replace them with ball pythons. I have two questions.....Is this yet another sign of the times? Is there a fair representation of altena and other colubrids at the other Texas reptile shows, or are they all steering toward the same python trend? Sorry this post isn't directed towards milk snakes, but I feel it is on topic with the theme of the original post. Thanks, Kevin

Shalomjeru Feb 19, 2011 12:01 AM

You know, a significant part of my job is identifying and fighting Heresy. As a Pastor, this is normal work. So I hope you will forgive me for spouting heresy with regard to the Herp HOBBY. In our HOBBY our charges are so much more than how much they cost and whether or not we can sell them!!!! Beauty/desirability is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, being the village idiot, I can't really tell the difference between most of the $1000 Ball Pythons and a lot of normal Ball Pythons. But then I'm not interested in Designer Ball Pythons. But I can appreciate a good looking specimen. And I will fight for the rights of folks to keep and breed the things!!! Now here comes the Heresy--If Doug came up to me and offered me a Leusistic Texas Rat and Bob came up to me and offered to give me a Leusistic Ball Python, I'd take the Rat!!!!! (OK, so I'm Prejudice but afterall I am a Texan!!!) Right now the snake I'm anxious to get a shot at in the future are a pair of Doug M's locality Green Obsoleta when he gets them to breed. I know that makes me appear crazy to most, if not all, Python breeders. But that's the point. We, as HOBBYISTS, all have different reasons for what we keep. As for not being able to sell all the kids, I have given away more snakes than I have sold. And I don't have a bit of trouble dealing with culls!!!(Here comes more Heresy!) I have a pair of Black getula that are more than happy to dine on any other snake I toss into their cages!!! That's a whole lot more than $0.02 but then no one has ever accused this Preacher of being short winded!!!!

Shalom,
Pat G-C

Sunherp Feb 19, 2011 11:16 AM

Interesting, astute, and accurate observation. It's that sort of thing that I'd like to see us rebel against. Viva la Revolucion!

-Cole

DISCERN Feb 19, 2011 03:37 PM

I was at that show too!

Actually, it may be touted as the biggest show in TX, due to size of the location building, and maybe the amount of vendors, but actually, the timing of the show is off-base, in terms of wanting to see a plethora of colubrids. In other words, it is definetely NOT the biggest show in terms of a widespread selection to view. All you are seeing is leftovers from last year, which is not a bad thing, and of course, millions of ball pythons, but it is not like a show in August or September, when so many vendors are just beginning to sell their colubrid babies, thus creating a bigger selection of babies to see.

Even though I have not been to the ETHS show that is held in September down in Houston in a few years, that show alone, from my experience, always has the biggest selection of colubrids for sale, including graybands, for any show in TX. Way more than the Arlington show last month ever has. Again, better time in the season.

When you do see those who are getting rid of colubrids to get ball pythons, it does appear to be the trend following you speak of. Let them do what they do, as they will get burnt out on that, which is all what trends are good for to begin with. It shows substance when you stick to what you REALLY love, not what you think you will make any money at. Then, if you do make money doing what you really love with species you really love, it is a second and added bonus!

But back to the point, I do wish more people would vend at shows that breed alterna, but then again, alterna lovers are different than others, mostly in a good way! haha!!! They really love those animals, as I do!

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Genesis 1:1

DMong Feb 19, 2011 03:45 PM

Good post Billy, and killer Gray-bands too!

"All you are seeing is leftovers from last year, which is not a bad thing, and of course, millions of ball pythons"

Huhh??, you mean all the millions of multi-thousand dollar Ball pythons aren't just FLYING off the tables???..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

DISCERN Feb 19, 2011 04:07 PM

Thanks man!

"Huhh??, you mean all the millions of multi-thousand dollar Ball pythons aren't just FLYING off the tables???.."

I know..I was surprised just as you were....HAHA!...kidding...
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Genesis 1:1

mikefedzen Feb 19, 2011 12:27 AM

well said Cole, some people will probably never lose interest in the hobby. I couldn't imagine my life without a snake collection... if there's a decline in the hobby then those who can't tough it out will downsize and possibly get rid of reptiles altogether. it's almost like, natural selection.
Image
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles
www.kingpinreptiles.com

gerryg Feb 19, 2011 04:25 AM

Very nice looking mussurana there Mike... if adults kept that nice distinct black and red coloring I'd be looking for a pair

Gerry

Sunherp Feb 19, 2011 11:14 AM

You've got a good point, Mike. The hard economic times have had (and will continue to have) an effect on the hobby. For better or worse, it's hard to say. It's entirely possible that some "good guys" will get weeded out simply due to financial reasons. A guy's gotta live...

-Cole

mikefedzen Feb 19, 2011 12:30 PM

Very true Cole, and with all the new laws and get established each year it gets harder and harder to make money from snakes.
But hey, I don't plan on getting rid of my collection anytime soon, and I probably spent 2 grand on snakes in the past couple months trying to rebuild for the future.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles
www.kingpinreptiles.com

Sunherp Feb 21, 2011 11:18 AM

I'm glad to hear that, Mike! Keep fighting the good fight!

-Cole

terryd Feb 19, 2011 12:56 AM

Nice post Cole,
I think it's important to remember that there are a number of great animals to still be working w/, and to stay true to our interests. It feels to me that our hobby has stagnated, at least from the thread below that's how it sounded, and that's what got Cole and I talking about what the milk hobby still has to offer, and its plenty.
I think there's still plenty of great animals to pursue, whether through classified adds, or following a lead on a South American milk, or in the field.

It's late, I'm going to bed. Keep those interests bubbling. Peace out.
Montana Pale.

Kansas gentilis

Non-locality Hypo Red.

Utah Milk

Texas celaenops
Image

Sunherp Feb 19, 2011 10:40 AM

I should have made it more clear in my original post, but there are still plenty of exciting animals to work with. Just like we talked about, it's boiling down to overcoming the stagnation of the hobby and not letting stuff slip away.

-Cole

Tony D Feb 19, 2011 07:49 AM

There is a small piece you're missing. Back in the heyday most of the animals you saw would technically be generics by today's standards. In my opinion trash talking about generic stocks played a significant role in people giving them up.

I have said many times before that one of the consequences of this locality becoming a religion was going to be the loss of hard won cb stocks. When 90% of the stocks out there don't suite a small but very vocal minority who are passionate about voicing their opinion you can't be surprised when all the sudden those stocks aren't around anymore.
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Sunherp Feb 19, 2011 10:59 AM

I actually disagree, I think... Most of the animals that came into the country to found the breeding groups in the late 1970s - 1980s came from relatively few locales. For example, almost all (all?) of the L. mexicana greeri (or just L. greeri) that came into the country originated from Rancho Santa Barbara, Durango. Animals with verifiable lineage are MUCH more highly prized because of the vast numbers of crosses that were made over the years with other mexicana-complex animals. The same goes for L. t. campbelli. The original stock all came from a relatively small area in southern Puebla, Mexico along a road that runs through a town called Zapotitlan. Many, many of the animals in today's market have heavy genetic influence from L. ruthveni and/or L. t. nelsoni, etc. True examples are few and far between. It was the lack of reverence for the animals' natural history that has largely contributed to the diminished options we see today.

Now, as for "locality becoming a religion", I think that's a misrepresentation and you and I have beaten that horse before. This post isn't about locality, though. It's about reinvigorating the passion for the animals we all enjoy, and overcoming a degree of stagnation. Please don't make this into something it's not. The animals you keep fit right along with locality stuff and the old, generic line of polyzona that I keep in being part of this attempt to rekindle a passion among the Lampro-lovers. Generic stock is just fine and I work with plenty (the hypo syspila, nelsoni, polyzona, Hondurans, etc.).

-Cole

Tony D Feb 19, 2011 05:30 PM

"Most of the animals that came into the country to found the breeding groups in the late 1970s - 1980s came from relatively few locales."

I'm not sure how true that is. True, some folks went down and collected their own and they hit the same spots but I believe the majority, perhaps even vastly so, came in via the import market with very scant if not completely incorrect data.

In any case my point was that a lot of what used to be available started to wane as soon as the locality thing came into vogue and that is also a reason why they are largely gone. I think the comment is relevant because in my view it is completely impractical to expect ad-hoc herpetoculture to maintain large numbers of small local strains for the long term when the evidence is its difficult enough to maintain strains that are at least “pure” at the species level.

As for the future of the hobby I think its mostly in the hands, or will be, of a few large breeders who will work the numbers running snake and lizard mills and there will be a few who work on the fringe who specialize and produce some really quality animals. From my standpoint there are many of advantages from buying from a fringe breeders but overblown notions of genetic purity isn’t one of them. In the end I’d prefer to buy a really nice pair of generic pyros than a pair of 8th gen line bred Santa Ritas but that’s just me. I like to look towards the practical long term not what makes a given breeder distinctive in the short term.
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Sunherp Feb 21, 2011 11:01 AM

Why such disdain for locality snakes? Is the added bit of natural history information really that upsetting? No offence, Tony, but the fervent anti-locality sentiment is coming off looking more like a self-justification measure than anything else. There is simply no way that an interest in locality animals drove down the availability of generic stock. When you look at how few people even care about locality data and at the historical record where most locality data on stock from the “heyday” was lost or forgotten, the evidence to support your claim just isn’t there.

Taking it further, I don’t know how else I can express the fact that I don’t have anything against generic stock, and have quite a number of generic animals in my collection. My post wasn't meant to hurt feelings, step on toes, or ruffle feathers. It was just a "call to arms", so to speak, for a renewal of interest for all of us milkheads and Lamprophiles.

-Cole

Tony D Feb 21, 2011 07:34 PM

Cole I don't have a disdain for locality snakes! My Bairds are locality, my corns are locality, my eastern kings are locality. Tim G. is getting out of blue eyed blond Cal kings and I've talked to him about how I might pick up the line and continue it as close to true local as possible. Hell most of my stock is locality. I do however have a a dislike for the few very vocal guys who trash any non-local approach but I wouldn't call it disdain. If I do disdain something it would be when a lot of local guys remain silent when unwarranted trashing goes on! Besides myself, I can think of only two others who will jump in and add a little perspective to the conversation.

Now if you disagree with whether or not the emphasis on locality had something to do with the decrease in normals in the market that is fine. As friends and gentlemen I think we can disagree on points but don't be questioning my motivation for providing a perspective on a discussion.
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Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Emmerson

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Sunherp Feb 22, 2011 10:16 AM

It was wrong to bring up any suspicion of motive. My apologies, Tony – I should have thought better of it and addressed any concerns in private.

Again, this really isn’t where I wanted this conversation to go... but here we are.... I don’t see much of the sort of anti-generic sentiment you’re speaking of anywhere but the alterna forum. That said there are definitely those of us who highly value that sort of information (locality data). We aren’t confined to keeping snakes, either. Within herpetoculture, the Chameleon guys, Gecko guys, and Dart frog guys have strong locality-preferring contingencies. Moving outside of herpetoculture, most Cyprinidontiform (livebearers and killifish) and Cichlid aquarists (at least advanced ones) are die-hard locality nuts. The same goes for advanced cactus and succulent horticulturists. These are just examples that I’m familiar with because I’ve been (or am) a part of them. From my every observation, it appears that all of the wildlife-keeping hobbies have a strong locality bent in their advanced members.

-Cole

shannon brown Feb 19, 2011 11:17 AM

Were better but on some notes they where worse.
Yes, I remember in the early 90's when the shows really took off and I would just walk around from table to table and there where just tons of milks and kings (not that many North American milks though)and all the vendors where raking in the dough.
I had a few shows in the mid 90's where I did 5-7 grand easy over a weekend and now if I bust a couple grand its a good show.LOL....

Anyway, I have a sad little story cause you mentioned it in your post.
ok, it was (92) and I was set up and doing my first show as a vendor in San Diego at the I.R.B.A. show.There was another vendor set up (Vince Schiedt) and he had 2.2 textbook DIXONI!!!!!!!!!!!!!! on his table.He had just came from England where he had did a big trade yada yada yada....Well, all dang weekend I kept going back to his table and picking the cups up and he kept saying Shannon you need those man you are the milk man blah blah....And I kept saying yeah but I really want some beter looking ones with not so many crossovers etc....Well, that was 19 freaking years ago and I have never seen another one since then.I have cryed like a little baby a couple times remembering that horrible afternoon.
The Ironic part is he sold them to a guy that was there from England!LOL..... they went back over the pond and I tried for years to track them down with no luck.
p.s. He only wanted $150.00 each for them...(wiping face now))))

L8r Shannon

DMong Feb 19, 2011 12:07 PM

Yeah, that story always makes me sick to my stomach too man!.

I always loved when you told me about this one too..LOL!......

"I'll wait for some better looking one's with less black cross-over's"

Yeah, sort of like expecting a zebra not to have stripes..LMAO!!!

Now please excude me while I go throw a tantrum and cry right along with you..

OOOH!!, the pain of it all!!

Image
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

shannon brown Feb 19, 2011 01:37 PM

Yeah Doug it still makes me sick man.Just thank, I could have been the only person in the states with Dixoni and by now they would have been all cleaned up etc.....

I was just nieve and figured that a few people still had them from the mid 80's expoditions down there.I soon found out that there was just a loan male here and there and that was it.

I even had on the bottom of my price lists a wanted section in huge black bold letters saying "wanted,dixoni,michropholis,smithi and abnorma" and All I ever got was dead ends.

One guy had a trio of adult smithi in the back of the reptiles mag (this was a bit before the net took off and I didn't even have a computer yet) and I bought them site unscene for $800.00 and what Iended up with was a reverse trio of ugly ass ruthveni.LOL.....

Then I met up with Jimme Maybe.....LMAO... that was a great story.He had polyzona,abnorma,stuarti and oligozona.I paid big bucks and got a pair of each and the abnorma ended up being guatamalan polyzona and the oligozona where a mix of stuarti and who knows what and the polyzona was a abnorma with some other influence LOL...... what a mess Jimmy made of things.

Even the "hondurensis" that Applegate was working with where polyzona.LOL.... it goes on and on man.

Anyway, its been a fun ride to say the least and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

L8r Shannon

DMong Feb 19, 2011 03:30 PM

LMAO!!!,..Holy smokes man!, I can sure relate to all that stuff brother... As you and a few others already know, I still to this day almost want to put a 9 mm to my head for selling those awesome real-deal oligozona(but of course not known to me at the time) to a pet shop and to a dude that later sold his pair to some unknown person at a show, before I really knew what they actually were too!..LOL!. At that time I basically thought they were probably real bad examples of stuarti (which I bought them as in the early 90's), or very likely stuarti intergrades..LOL!..

And of course you also know all about my getting some of Jim Mabe's poly x abnorma crosses too and originally thinking they were pure poly's..LOL!. We have all lived and learned from so many countless experiences in this hobby, and like you just said, I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world either.

What's REALLY funny about this is that as I walked around the show after I bought the pair from Jim, I saw others on tables labeled as polyzona that were very tipped-up and "ugly"...and thinking mine were WAY better looking than their stuff, and even some of the breeders were looking at mine and then their animals, then would look at each other with a bewildered look wondering which one's were really the genuine polyzona..LOL! But looking back at all that now, the uglier more bi-colored ones on those tables WERE the real genuine polyzona..HAHAAHAHA!!..

Yeah, as the old saying goes...."live and learn"..LOL!

All great experiences that have gradually built the foundation of what I know now about them today,....so it was all actually PRICELESS!..

Ahhh yes, thinking back on many of the milestones of the ol' meristics and identification "learning curve" are something that you just can't beat at any price man!

Another thing that is so darn ironic and confusing to people is all the freakin HORRIBLE mis-labeled examples of the subspecies there are in so many milksnake books out there in the market. I do not have a SINGLE milksnake book that doesn't have numerous gross errors in it..LOL!. No wonder everyone is so confused in thinking they know what is what when these books will show a textbook stuart captioned as a freakin micropholis(RIGHT SCOTT??)..LOL!, a conanti as a Black milk, a stuarti as an oligozona, a polyzona as an abnorma...and on and on and on..........

This is why Rich Zuchowsy got out of Latin milks about as fast as he started, because he wanted to sell real-deal examples of these Latin milks but simply could not get a handle on them at ALL!, so off he went into solely corns..LOL!

Man, I really enjoyed this thread!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Sunherp Feb 21, 2011 10:15 AM

Painful as hell, but it illustrates the point pretty well. I cringe every time you bring it up! Thanks for chiming in.

-Cole

FerretTime Feb 19, 2011 03:24 PM

The post that I made about the hobby a few weeks ago one of the points I was trying to get across was the fact that we see less species being offered and less diversity means we ARE going backwards not forwards.

DMong Feb 19, 2011 04:04 PM

Yeah,...that's basically because of Ball pythons and all the countless multi-crossed "hodge-podge" snakes that are "Paisley print" x "swirly-gig barber-pole" x "blazing Chinese fireworks", het for "smuckers grape jam" and possible het for "neon purple spaceship turbo corn" are more interesting to too many people in the hobby now...LOL!

Some morphs are great, don't anyone get me wrong because I have and do produce some but when they are all simply man-made on purpose from a deliberate stirred-up slurry of "alphabet soup" of undescernible origins, that is what is truly upsetting to me now...*sigh*

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

DISCERN Feb 19, 2011 04:09 PM

You hit the nail right on the biologically-bored-and-perverted head my friend!!!!
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Genesis 1:1

DMong Feb 19, 2011 07:43 PM

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

JYohe Feb 19, 2011 09:04 PM

red milk, locality...sold at show to a guy that liked them as cool pets...not one milkhead around in PA???...

ball pythons with paisley print Tshirts on them, traded and or sold for $$$$$ at all shows here...almost all the time....

....the paisley worms pay for the locality stuff ( for fun )..in my home......the milks haven't paid for themselves in decade ......

...hopefully ,this years' milks will fill half a table.....even if they barely pay for it....???....come on by....

...just sticking up for the royals a little....we'll see what happens some day I fill a table with cool milks....saw a guy once fill a table with garters...4 species...and he was the talk of the day and also...sold out pretty quickly....so odd or non-normal stuff does at times go noticed....

..good luck all.....so far...the pale male that was walking the wall for 2 weeks looking for girls....put him with a girl...first time ever....she went underground and he went to the moist hide and under....?...what the heck...LOL....(he was at cage front for 2 weeks,now under)...

...
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........JY

Sunherp Feb 21, 2011 10:17 AM

Your original post really got a lot of chatter going on (both on the forum and off). It got my mind rolling on the subject and pushed me to think harder about my goals and ambitions with regard to my collection.

Thanks!
-Cole

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