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I brought home another sav. He was immediately vet checked and clear of parasites. He's a yearling and almost the same length as my two and a half year old rescue. The differences between them are subtle, but definitely there. I don't know if they look so different because one is younger and has not developed fully or if they are different sexes. Any inclination I once had has gone out the window.

The new sav has a very pointy snout whereas my old "girl" is more rounded. The new one also appears extremely delicate compared to the more robust-bodied resident sav. I put them together briefly and immediately they acknowledged one another, tongues were flying everywhere, and then they moved toward one another. Rather than puff up and hiss, which I expected, they both sucked in their sides and appeared very skinny while they approached each other in a sort of arc. They were face to face, then my "girl" started nudging the new guy (neck, abdomen, tail base) then climbed on top. The other one moved slightly and then just allowed it to happen. My girl then moved off and went back to nudging. Then they separated, occasionally checking each other out.

Can anyone with more experience help explain what that was about? I certainly wasn't expecting so much "behavior." Prior to introduction, they were both fed and basking. I am not sure whether the display was solely a dominance display or if the mounting was significant in another way. I suppose all you can do is provide your theories based on my information. Anyway, it was incredibly interesting. These animals are so much more magnificent than people give them credit for. I hope to post pictures of the two today.

Hi JoOaks, I think it was probably a dominance issue, as the new animal entered the "territory". At a year old, it`s still subadult, so I wouldn`t bet they are different sexes just yet (photos would be good, though), just to see... Good luck, I hope it turns out you have a compatible pair and have breeding success one day, if that`s your wish! (Doesn`t happen too often in captivity with exanthematicus).

Hello again. I introduced them on the floor of my bedroom, I figured this way they could get away from each other if they needed. I placed the newbie down first, then my girl a foot or so away.

I figured it was probably a territorial display, but since I never expected to see something like that (extremely similar to watching two new dogs interact), I figured I would ask since I am ignorant on the subject of lizard behavior.

I know, for instance, in certain species of birds, only the males will perform certain behaviors, "dances" if you will, to court a female. Of course I don't believe what is true for a bird is true for a lizard, but I also didn't expect that two lizards would behave similarly to dogs.

Would anyone care to add their thoughts?

Hi, I hope you get a few more responses, but I`d just like to add, very many lizards of different families have quite complicated lives and "rituals", they truly do "speak" to one another first, rather than just going into the "attack" phase, and varanids are at the top of reptile evolution in many ways, so no surprise they are very complicated organisms. Maybe we ourselves could learn from them? (I wish)!!!

I just finished reading an article in Biawak about a feral iguana attacking two adult water monitors to gain access to a basking spot in a conservation area. One monitor left immediately. When the iguana arrived, there was a long period of nothing, then he attacked the remaining water monitor. He actually climbed on its back and bit its neck. I was completely astonished to read this.

I'm going to try to get pictures now and hopefully a video.

So, nothing interesting happened this time around. The video has a few more images of my resident sav and one of the newcomer. He is absolutely not comfortable with handling and is quick to hiss and tail whip. I'll probably post videos on youtube of my method for desensitizing a flighty lizard to the presence of a human. First things first, though, the newbie is shedding poorly and seems a tad dehydrated. Once he's in tip-top shape I'll start working with him. For now, any educated guesses on their sex? Yes, I know they're just guesses but odds are you're a bit more educated on than subject than me.

I guess it would be beneficial to actually include the video this time.

Hi again JoOaks,
you`re right, it always (well almost always), helps when you include the video or photos! In this case though, I cannot do more than offer a guess, my guess is your new animal is either male or female, and there`s a 100% chance I`m right... I think the monitor found a good home, that`s all that matters just now, get him/her healthy, then you might be able to show a few clearer pics/vids of him/her in close up. Good luck!

Yeah, I figure it's just a guessing game. An educated guess is what I'm lacking. I did read, and also saw Jobi mention, that some experienced keepers are slightly more aware of extremely subtle sexually dimorphic differences in monitors. In a 2007 publication of Biawak, Jarrett Coiro explained his methods for producing captive bred savannah monitors. Here's an excerpt on sex:

"Visual sex determination of V.exanthematicus can be difficult, although maintaining this species in captivity for ten years has allowed for easier detection of subtle sexually dimorphic characters, even in neonates. The male possesses a very robust head with a more pronounced hump towards the end of its snout when compared to the more slanted and pointed snout of the female. Another difference is observable in tail base thickness: the male possesses a distinct ventral groove which, in sexually mature males, lies between pronounced hemipenal bulges; the female possesses a flatter tail base. A third observable dimorphic character is the difference in coloration between sexes. The bright golden-yellow tones of the male drastically differ from the darker, duller brown shades of the female. The author has observed this difference in all offspring raised to maturity, so color may be a reliable indicator for visual sex determination in V. exanthematicus."

I would never know those things, but someone else here might. But, sexing the two aside, I'd still like to know what others thought of the first interaction I described. Perhaps to some people it's a very boring, typical behavior for monitors. To me, however, it opens up a whole new world. I can definitely see why people keep them in groups now.

More pictures. I'm so excited about the two.

Newbie right.

Newbie

Oldie

Oldie

Newbie

Newbie top

Newbie bottom

Oldie head detail, dubia nymph camo

Again

Newbie head detail

Newbie top

Very nice shots, but I still don`t see a significant difference between the two, but at 12 months, the new one is still a sub adult, as they get older the head becomes more "box like", so I`ll stay with it`s either male or female, if I`m wrong, I`ll never guess about anything again!

this morph shows sexual dimorphism in patern...larger patern in males with a large dark sholder patch and sometime a deeper red eye. look for a longer bady in males...look for tail shape.

in time this will become obvious to you.

when all fails they have similar patern and similar tails...look at the body...females of almost all lizard species have short wider bodys desing for egg carying.

Thank you for the information. Gorgeous monitors, as well.

I have a question about sexual maturity... Does this come with age or size or both? So far I've heard (from various sources of varying quality) that females should drop eggs by the time they are 20" in length, savs can reproduce as early as six months, and on the other hand, that they don't reach sexual maturity until three years of age.

What determines sexual maturity?

sexual maturity is determed buy SUPORT

what is suport? it is food, it is heat, it is hydration.
what inhibit sexual maturity? stress!!
what is stress? inproper foods, inproper heat, inproper hydration...and stress from being paired with the wrong partner...from being handled.

as a keeper you lern to be aware of this IN TIME

Again thank you very much. I don't have the time, space, or money to keep many more monitors. I want to do what's right for the two I have in hopes they'll be around when my one year old son heads off to college.

thers nothing wrong with keeping a single familly pet...monitors can live 20-30-50? years no one really knows.

but I can asure you that a long term captive is most enjoyable...my favorit pet specie is the nil...yes any niloticus they become your friend for life if you alow it to happen.

Niles are beautiful, one day I hope I am in the position to support a larger species. For now, I am drawn to Savs. I've found just how incredibly smart they are working with her and marker training. I hope to also work with my feisty new guy once he settles in and no longer hides when I enter the room.

JoOaks, have you seen the "Lizard Kings" film?

I have not, what's the premise?

It`s a film about varanids, mainly in Australia, but also other locations, they`ve done some intelligence tests too, and are doing more as we speak, although it may be some time before the results are published. When you can spare 45 minutes or so, take a look, it`s on youtube, produced by PBS: "Lizard Kings", let me know what you think if /when you`ve seen it. They`re remarkable animals (without giving anything away)... It`s in a few short episodes.

Extremely interesting so far, I've watched the first two sections. Perenties are so cool looking.

Perenties are one of my favourite species, they casn walk for many kilometers a day searching for prey, top predators along with the dingo.

Just watched the rest of the documentary. The training done by the London Zoo and the American college employ the same methods that I do. I began working with these methods as a dog trainer, then rats, then cats, then birds, and now lizards. It's incredibly rewarding to watch them work.

Hi jobi, I wouldn`t say "any" Nile (or any other species), will always be your "fiend", but it`s VERY nice to see you have a tractable niloticus, they are often spoken of as the most "aggressive" monitor, but that is so unfair, they, like the rest of the family are just "defensive", they react to a perceived threat by defending themselves, it`s no more than that.
My very large (225cm) V. ornatus was very "tame", but I`d kept him for almost 14 years, so not too surprising he was that way! Nice photos, and beautiful monitors!

Not "fiend", of course, I meant to spell f-R-i-e-n-d!

raised about 400 niloticus to adulthood...in this bunch some came from TOGO, Nigeria, Egypt, Mozambique, Kenya, Zimbabway I imported them myself...I wanted the best skin color and patern...my goal is to produce leather for the fasion industry.

as I raised the many locals iv noticed that niloticus have a unique trait amongst varanida...they are inteligent and wise.
if your respectfull they all lern to trust you (NO EXEPTION)

niloticus are the best begainer monitor because they teach the keeper to respect them...once you understand this they folow you from hatcheling to old bags.

Your goal is just to raise varanids to slaughter them for the leather trade, aren`t enough of them dying as it is, without that??

why so judgemental? if I do this its to aliviate the slother.

your not in my shoes and have ni idea of the roads iv walked...do you?

I started 3 decades ago in a gator farm...thats where iv learned to respect animals...the owner was kind of like steeve irwin without the hype...he alowed me to think outside the box.

Well, I don`t see how you can "respect" an animal you only keep to deliberately slaughter for monetary gain!?
I do understand there are people in certain parts of the world who may catch them for the purpose of export in a bid to raise money for their family, or kill and use as bush meat, are you in that position? Obviously, it`s your business, you don`t need to get mine or anyone elses permission, so long as it`s legal (I expect it is where you are)?

you assume its for money gain...but in truth I dont make much.
iv seen all my babies die in the hands of keepers for years and years...cant take it anymore...I like to work with them any seen new colors and pattern...also like it or not there will always be a demand for skins...whatever is produced is not a bad thing.

I have seen too many mens saying lets clean up the mess boys!! but the never get there hands dirty...which are you??

how does one "allow" the relationship between monitor and care giver to occur. you are obviously a success and i really dont understand how you did it. please give details. thank you

"What determines sexual maturity?"

As jobi mentioned, there are a lot of factors involved. However, size is the general factor.

Hard for me to tell for sure from the photos but it does look to me that you have a pair. Don't put much stock into figuring out which one's which by their actions when introduced. The actions you saw were most likely due to their personality instead of their sex. I've seen females mount males. Jobi gave you some good info.

Best wishes!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Thank you very much for the information, I really appreciate help from the more experienced monitor enthusiasts. I guess I'll just give these guys an appropriate enclosure with a good diet and see what happens.