Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I recently read a thread where a guy said that he has culled almost 100% of his Gray Bands because they would not accept pinkies right away, and almost 100% of his Cal Kings because they had bad attitudes! I was more shocked to see how many people support this behavior. What say you? Is it acceptable to cull off all snakes that don't meet your target criteria for selective breeding programs? I won't add another opinion, I just want to see what you guys think?
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Well, I already told you what I thought of it earlier, but I will say it here as well. I think that person needs to get into something else as a hobby, like maybe coin or stamp collecting. To first produce these snakes, then kill these different types of snakes knowing FULL-WELL what their feeding and defensive charicteristics are is just ridiculous to me.

Like I said earlier, when the guy said that "they didn't fit my criteria, so I cull them", in my opinion it is more like the DUDE did not fit the SNAKE'S criteria!. It is blatant irresponsibility and stupidity to first produce these types of snakes, then proceed to kill them for doing exactly what they are supposed to do and what comes very naturally to them.

Maybe he should just be "culled" from the herp hobby!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Some of the support and follow-up comments from some of the other idiots there really blew me away too!....geeez!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Perhaps he needs to pick a breed of snake that's a bit less challenging for him. Or maybe stick to something like goldfish?

He needs to get out of the hobby. Killing them should not be an option and should not be accepted. Who ever those were that supported him must be as clueless as him. It sounds like he sees those things as traits and is trying to select against them. I think one day he is going to realize its an individual thing and not a trait you can select against.
-----

>>I recently read a thread where a guy said that he has culled almost 100% of his Gray Bands because they would not accept pinkies right away, and almost 100% of his Cal Kings because they had bad attitudes! I was more shocked to see how many people support this behavior. What say you? Is it acceptable to cull off all snakes that don't meet your target criteria for selective breeding programs? I won't add another opinion, I just want to see what you guys

It is NOT the snake's fault.......they know what they want.
It is the keeper's inability to provide.........
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Laziness and selfishness is what consumes him. We have enough of it already in this hobby, and don't need any more of this.

He has no business having any animals, let alone a snake.

That type of irresponsibility should never be condoned. Deciding the fate of a poor snake, which is only doing what is natural, and not actually WORKING with them, shows no capability of patience being obtained or searched for. For the love of God, it is not about us but about the animals!

If there were actually supporters of this brand of stupidity, then we should be more alarmed. Supports of convenience and selfism have no place keeping any animal in their " care ".

The fact that he could have actually just given them away, but chose to cull them, shows that he actually probablys gets some kind of rush doing so. Very sad and disturbing.

Heck, I know of one breeder who either freezes and feeds off healthy baby corns, bulls, etc., if he doesn't sell them all at one or two particular shows! haha! How absurd!!!!

Those poor animals. Another example of how sad mankind has become.

-----
Genesis 1:1

Not that I condone the actions of the subject of the OP’s post and I am in no way defending him but a few things in your post strike me as hypocritical.

That type of irresponsibility should never be condoned. Deciding the fate of a poor snake, which is only doing what is natural, and not actually WORKING with them, shows no capability of patience being obtained or searched for. For the love of God, it is not about us but about the animals!

Heck, I know of one breeder who either freezes and feeds off healthy baby corns, bulls, etc., if he doesn't sell them all at one or two particular shows! haha! How absurd!!!!

Quite a few of us raise mice to feed to our snakes, we see no problem in that and there’s not one, but if someone is raising corns to feed to snakes that are hard starters on rodents then that is a problem? Should we then cull off the snakes that won’t feed on rodents or show patience and work with them? Oops, did we just go in circles?

I have no problem raising food for my animals. I have had to acquire deformed hatchlings for a few animals to get them started because I could not bring myself to feed a healthy hatchling but I can’t fault people that can.

I think there is a big difference between raising strictly feeder animals that are solely and knowingly beeing bred to be eaten by snakes, and producing some very nice snakes that could EASILY be given away if they didn't fit this guy's strange criteria.

If people culled their milksnakes for being nervous and musking on them, heck, there wouldn't even be any LEFT in the entire hobby..LOL!

I think the point is that this guy could have VERY easily got into some other types of snakes before doing all this senseless culling. I'm quite sure that lots of people would have gladly taken them off his hands if he "wanted" to do it, but he chose the quick lazy route and killed them only because it was more convenient without any good reason at all. That is the way I see it regardless of a few other angles it can be looked at by anyone.

The bottom line there is he could have easily raised other types of snakes, and if not, gave them to some other folks that are more accustomed to dealing with them....simple as that. Just my opinion on it though.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Well, I can see where the anger in this heated subject comes from both side....
If this guy is just getting rid of healthy snakes for no reason, that is dumb and he should not own these animals that we all value so much.
However, I have owned several coral snakes, and at the same time of breeding my pyros and longnose snakes, I also needed food for the coral snake when I did not have access to ground snakes, blind snakes, black heads and ETC. So if I had very picky babies that were not eating and I have selected my individuals to hold back and work with and I have gotten rid of obvious strong healthy eaters, then the remainder can rightfully be used as coral snake food.
This happens in the wild, reptiles eat other reptiles, and some animals require it.

I completely see your point, but your post has nothing to do with this person's lack of effort to get his snakes trying to be fed. Nothing hypocritical at all about what I said. The snakes being talked about are kings, and are kings that ARE and HAVE been switched to mice millions of times.

The person that Jorge spoke of, is being completely void of putting forth effort. Why is that person keeping a snake that is so hard to be started on something so common that can be fed to the snake to begin with? Especially, due to his lack of experience and patience? If he wants to breed snakes, have babies, and then turn around and sell them, then the general public would obviously want a pet that can be easily fed, most likely, on something very common to give to the snake, such as mice. Unless you are raising Mussuranas, most snakes, especially the ones talked about by the false individual talked about in the original post, such as gray bands and cal kings, CAN get started on mice. Graybands do like lizards, and that is why lots of babies don't want to eat mice, but most noteworthy grayband breeders are able to get them switched over to mice.

There are ways to actually get snakes to eat mice. How about instead of raising corns for just feeding purposes, why not use scenting techniques with corn snake skins?

Good thoughts though, my friend.
-----
Genesis 1:1

I agree with your opinion of that person’s actions I was merely commenting on what seemed to be conflicting statements within that one post.

I am a regular on the forum that this originated from and was surprised at the support of those actions, support from people I would never have expected. This is the mentality of a pure breeder that only wants to see their own goals achieved, a goal they perceive to be beneficial to the species they are working with. If he sold (He owns a pet store) or gave away the undesirable offspring they would be out there to further “pollute” the gene pool. I have seen this in dog breeding back when I worked with animal control. Purists would drown newborns that expressed undesirable traits and they saw no harm in it.

As for the guy that breeds the corns as feeders he works with both Cribos and Cobras both can remarkably difficult feeders.

hmmmm, Yes I agree on everything said here, But no Sonoran coral snake is going to eat mice, even if it is scented with snakes, Unless there is someone out there that has found a way to switch them. I have not found a way, the only luck ive had was getting them to eat some lizards.

Before reading everyone else' responses to your post, I will say this guy is the one with the bad attitude! What a jerk! He should not be in the fancy if he has so little patience or understanding of his charges.
-----
Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I found the thread and read Elrojo's post.
elrojo
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109096&page=2

At the last show I vended, someone had unsexed hatchling corns (normal, anery, amel, and snows) 2 for $10. I had sexed yearlings for $25, and watched him sell all day as I moved none. $5 for out of egg pippies, or $25 for perfect year olds with 50+ meals in them would be a no-brainer to me, but not the buying public. And at the ten dollar pair price point, they are disposable pets and begging to be cohabbed. Our hobby can go either way. The choice isn't entirely ours, because sellers will fill the demand for cheap animals. But we can keep improving lines, and hopefully anyone interested in breeding will have that in mind.
He makes some good points about culling for quality control(deformities), and no longer raises gray bands. Still, culling for "bad attitudes" or not wanting to eat mice when the snake is a natural lizard eater is totally wrong, in my opinion. Culling is a painful but necessary action which should not be abused.
-----
Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Thanks Bob for pasteing the "offensive" post. The poster does clarify a lot. And he did get out of Graybands!!!! So Lassiter--just give me a call before you dump any aggressive/picky eating Mex-Mex or Thayeri!!!!LOL

Shalom,

Pat G-C

>>Thanks Bob for pasteing the "offensive" post. The poster does clarify a lot. And he did get out of Graybands!!!! So Lassiter--just give me a call before you dump any aggressive/picky eating Mex-Mex or Thayeri!!!!LOL

Lol.........will do Pat........but I think I have a little more patience and cooth than this pinhead........
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

he's talking eugenics...

My mom always used to say fools rush in where Angels fear to tread!!!! I have a few questions and, of course, several opinions (everyone knows: opinions are like A$$#@%!*, everyone has 'em and they stink!!!!) I agree with Master Mong--the guy probably needs to think about other snakes to play with. But what if he also raises Hots that need snakes to eat??? I have a friend who is keeping Coral snakes in order to get venom for the production of antivenin which is in a critical shortage. Another friend has a King Cobra that eats snakes!!! What if this guy is doing that??? Are we any different feeding mice, rats, Chicks, Guinea Pigs and Rabits, etc. There are groups that raise all these critters for competition, enjoyment, love, etc. And I have been known to have an odd DOR snake or two in the frig next to hundreds of mice and Rats and I can tell you there were many more "Ah, poor little mice" than "Ah, poor little snakes". I find it appalling that Graybands and other Kings are culled because of aggression and feeding! But before I take the high ground I have to say it would bother me less if the guy was culling Ball Pythons!!!!! Well, here's the bottom line for me--I couldn't do it with Kings but it would depend on the situation for other stuff.

Shalom,

Pat G-C

Ahh, the fire has spread over to here as well. Glad to see that there are other people who share your viewpoints. I was starting to feel like i was crazy because the people who originally responded to the thread over there were in favor of culling for being born the wrong color or behaving like a snake. I was asking myself... damn.. am i just a wuss? Do i need to just man up and accept that reasoning? Well, at least it seems like a lot of people over there are changing their tune, which is a good thing.