Reptile & Amphibian Forums

If you own a Key West Boa lets some of your pics!

Here are a few old pics of my little male!

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Steve Hamm
www.greatlakesconstrictors.com

Whoops ignore the last picture!
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Steve Hamm
www.greatlakesconstrictors.com

..key west boas and roswell siblings?
Mike

One is a cross BCC X BCI and has a proven super form, and the key west is BCI X BCI and does not have a super form proven yet. They may be compatible but I do not believe that the kew west X roswell has happened.

I'm not familiar with the origins of the Key West boa, and I'm not suggesting anything, just asking a question. How do we know there is no BCC blood involved with the Key West line? I suspect that many of the believed/assumed pure BCI in the pet trade may unwittingly have BCC blood. If it's in the pet trade, I don't presume anything is pure anything. Not saying that the Key West line does have BCC blood, just curious how do we know that it does not?

Thanks in advance for any info.

Mark

Because the siblings to the Key West Boas even from the earliest litter back in '05.
Those siblings that do not express the connected pattern that is or makes
the "Key West Boa" they look like regular normal pet trade
Colombian type Boas.

A picture of a littermate's that didn't get the LT, pic from back in '06.

A-6

A pic from 2009.

A few other pics of siblings from back in '06 as well,
A-3

A-4

A-5

Here's Dad

and a pic of Mom (She displays the trait)

As always, thanks for looking, and any feedback is appreciated.
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Here is more Info as told by Jeff Ronne

[QUOTE=The_Boaphile;166531]Key West Boas

The mother of my “Key West Boa” proven breeder male was born in 1999 or 2000 in New York. Zach Murray owns the mother of my male. Zach is sometimes known as “Crotalus”, lives in the Florida Keys where he produced a litter that included my male in 2005. Zach had been pretty much a locality interested guy and was unfamiliar with all the morphs. In 2005 when Zach produced the babies, he knew they were beautiful, but was unaware of the genetic prize he had found in that first litter of Boas. Zach gave a number of those babies to friends and sold some to others. This is the mother of that litter that started it all:

There is more but it all can be found two other Forums.

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Thanks for the info, Lar. It's interesting. I personally thought the snake in the pic in the original post looked like it could have some BCC in it. Mainly the shape of the snout, very angular. And the colors, not typical BCI, in my opinion. But not enough to say definitively, which is typical of pet trade animals. It is interesting that the origins was also from a "normally locality guy".

As has been said many times in these forums and elsewhere, unless you collected them from the wild and bred them yourself, you never really know, right?

Thanks again for the info!

Mark

By the way Mark I'm glad I could show you some pictures of non mutation siblings
and explain the thought process behind the mutation.

Good luck with your season !!

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

I have to say my Roswell Laddertail girl looks EXACTLY like the animals you posted that started the "Kwb" line. 

I believe they are the same and that the main current distinction from the two looks is because they were bred into different animals and collections that had different looks. 

I'm sure once more is done with the Roswell Laddertail stuff they will have the same "pastelish" look to them as the Kwb stuff. 
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Brandon Nixon

I agree the patterns look very similar and with selective breeding
into nice Colombian type Pastel Boas.
They all will look very similar in the Heterozygous form.

You must be speaking of these Images fem Mother of Zach's 2005 litter

Image depicts Mom of 2005 KWB litter(She displays the KWB trait)

and this Image Mom of 2005 KWB litter

How's your Roswell girl doing ? . . . coming along good I hope !!

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Yes sir she is coming along quite well and is on track...as is my Male!
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Brandon Nixon

Thoe babies and the father definitely show the typical Colombian-style pet trade look . But that female that started it all definitely , in my eyes, looks strongly like a cross . I suspect that the continued pairings with Colombian based boas have taken away the look of the BCI/BCC cross. I truly believe that the KW and ROZ are the same morph , and possibly from the same origin.
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Snake room janitor

Simply put in my opinion if mother has Bcc influence it would follow that babies would have that influence.

The babies do not have any Bcc influence

A-6 baby

A few other pics of siblings from back in '06 as well,
A-3 baby

So why don't these babies have that Bcc influence if the mother has it ?

The Bcc influence should stick out like a sore thumb
wouldn't you think so ?

The mother appears the way she appears because she carries the
connected pattern trait . . . . . nothing more.

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

"So why don't these babies have that Bcc influence if the mother has it ? "

Larry , I have produced 2 Albino litters where one parent was a Suri cross, and the other was a Colombian , and the possible het babies did not show an suri influence. It is very easy to take away the look of a crossed Boa .

Suri cross pos hets from two different pairings --

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Snake room janitor

That may be , but why then wouldnt the original owner of kew west say that the animal is a cross ? I would think that he would know and had no idea what he even produced.Their doesnt appear to be a motive. Doesnt make sense that he would lie about it from 1999 and when he produced a litter in 2005. I guess unless its proven beyond reasonable doubt, it cant be proven. I do not have enough info, but I know that Jeff Ronne is one of the most honest people in our business(or any business). Im sure he did his homework and he is satisfied that they are bci xbci. Good enough for me. To me, they dont look exactly the same. Could be both genes lie in bci and bcc.

I dont' know about anyone else, but I wasn't implying anything decietful or as devious as lying. I just don't believe anyone really knows. I can't for sure claim that any of my boas are pure columbian or pure anything else. There could easily be mixed blood in any of them, somewhere in the recent or distant past if they are from generations of captive born/bred stock. The longer the captive lineage, the more outcrosses from other captive bred stock, the greater the likelihood of mixed blood. As such, I don't market any of my animals as pure. They are "pet trade" boas, believed to be mostly of Columbian BCI decent. I think that is the best anyone can do, really. Unless of course you are the original importer and have collection data, or well maintained lineage documentation from trusted sources. Then you may be a little more sure...

Just my opinion and probably overpriced at $.02.

Mark

>>I dont' know about anyone else, but I wasn't implying anything decietful or as devious as lying. I just don't believe anyone really knows. I can't for sure claim that any of my boas are pure columbian or pure anything else. There could easily be mixed blood in any of them, somewhere in the recent or distant past if they are from generations of captive born/bred stock. The longer the captive lineage, the more outcrosses from other captive bred stock, the greater the likelihood of mixed blood. As such, I don't market any of my animals as pure. They are "pet trade" boas, believed to be mostly of Columbian BCI decent. I think that is the best anyone can do, really. Unless of course you are the original importer and have collection data, or well maintained lineage documentation from trusted sources. Then you may be a little more sure...
>>
>>Just my opinion and probably overpriced at $.02.
>>
>>Mark

Well said. I agree. And like you I am not claming anything about anyone. I just disagree with putting a "pure" anything label on them.

Regardless of what the genetic make up is, I think the Key West is one of the best looking morphs going and I hope to own one soon.
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Jeff Carr
West Coast Constrictors
www.westcoastconstrictors.com

Fair enough, I agree that it is impossible to be sure unless they came in as imports. I was just saying that the key west would have been labeled a definite cross from the beginning if that were the case. So maybe its a bci with a possibility their could be some bcc blood mixed in , but nothing other than the similarity to roswells would make us form that opinion.

" I do not have enough info, but I know that Jeff Ronne is one of the most honest people in our business(or any business). "

I agree Dan . Jeff is about as good as it gets in every area of this hobby .
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Snake room janitor

Right Dave but . . . . . . show the rest of the litter including the mother with 25% - 50% Bcc in her .

Do any of them have any Bcc influence in their appearance ?

That is the only point of the discussion , is there an appearance of Bcc influence in the litter
or we can include the parents also do they display Bcc tendencies.

In the case of the KWB mutation only the babies with the mutation
take on the appearance as if there is Bcc present.

I will concede you cannot put locality brand label on them, just as you cannot do that with Any of our pet trade Colombian type Boas

We still know they are Colombian Boas ( normal, common northern, etc . . . )

That sums up my point I believe.

. . . . . . . . . . .

. . . Lar M

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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

"Right Dave but . . . . . . show the rest of the litter including the mother with 25% - 50% Bcc in her .

Do any of them have any Bcc influence in their appearance ?

That is the only point of the discussion , is there an appearance of Bcc influence in the litter
or we can include the parents also do they display Bcc tendencies. "

You are right Larry -- I will post the mother here . But all of the other babies were either Hypos, Albinos, kinked, or slugs . I posted the normals to show their lack of looking like a cross, just as you were showing the normals of the litter . Hypos and Albinos aren't going to add to distinguish the Suri cross. Belive me , the only way the buyers of this litter knew about the Suri cross , is because I told them . Here's the mother, who I think does show some signs of being a cross, but not as much as the original KW female. --

I really only meant to state what I think about it all . I really don't intend to try and change anyone elses opinions. Unfortunately, I don't own either K's, or R's, ( I wish I did) so maybe I shouldn't even speak about them . Take care --
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Snake room janitor

Thx Dave honestly it was a fun discussion, I see your fem had a
very very red tail reminiscent of a Suri but
other than that I wouldn't know.

In all honesty this . . . the mothers appearance , strengthens
your side of the discussion.

She's actually a great example to use, point taken !

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

>>Simply put in my opinion if mother has Bcc influence it would follow that babies would have that influence.
>>. . . Lar M

But it's not as simple as that. You could easily have offspring that look more like one parent than the other, but the blood is till mixed.

People always post the same photos over and over of the same Key West siblings, but they always for get about this one. Why is that?

This animal looks decidedly like a BCC cross IMO. Anyone else?

The bottom line is this: With a history tracing back to "from a friend of a friend, from back in the 80's somewhere..." there is SIMPLY no way to be certain...

The Key West and Roswell mutations are the same thing and I believe originate from the bcc, possibly Suri blood. The Key West is simply better looking right now due to the selective breeding by Jeff and shows less of its bcc origins.
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Jeff Carr
West Coast Constrictors
www.westcoastconstrictors.com

Ha ha Jeff C I guess you still don't understand the point I try to make.

When I show a sibling to a Key West Boa that means I'm showing a Boa With Out the KWB mutation.

I show the Boas With Out the KWB mutation to make the point
that those non mutation carrying Boas do not look like Bcc .

Only the Boas that carry the KWB mutation have that appearance.

So That's why I do not show that Boa because that IS A Key West Boa !!!

Key West Boa (from 2005 litter) (MJ)

Non Key West Boa (Sibling)(from 2005 litter)

Key West Boa (Mom 2005)

Non Key West Boa(dad 2005)

Key West Boa (Fem from 2005 litter)

Non Key West A3 (sibling)(from 2005 litter)

Key West Boa (Male from 2005 litter)

Non Key West (sibling)(from 2005 litter)

Is is starting to sink in yet ?

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

>>Ha ha Jeff C I guess you still don't understand the point I try to make.
>>
>>
>>Is is starting to sink in yet ?
>>
>>
>> . . . Lar M

LMAO Lar!

I get what you guys are saying, I've always understood it Lar. I simply disagree and find it amazing that some people get so offended at my opinion on the Key West. Why are you so blinded to the fact that there is simply NO way to be 100% sure where they came from? It is purely speculation. I believe it would be a much different argument if a small time hobbyist like myself found something new and slapped a "Pure" label on it. Would you be so fast and furious to my defense Lar?
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Jeff Carr
West Coast Constrictors
www.westcoastconstrictors.com

Nobody is 100% sure Jeff. Nobody has used the "Pure" word, ever, though several have over the past year continued to make that inaccurate claim.

Anyone can base any opinion upon anything they wish. However, to base an opinion of the origin of the animals based upon the appearance of the animals that have the mutation, to the complete exclusion of the anecdotal information gathered, and with no regard for the appearance of the non-mutant sibling offspring, just is not intellectually sound. That's all.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

I must say I made that assumption in terms of BCC being somewhere in the KWB project's past when i first laid eyes on them. Normal colombians are just not that clean and dont have such a clean red tail and no morph before the KWB had such a hot lookin' tail other than locality BCC boas. They actually reminded me of laddertial connecting saddle surinames that regularly come available from importers. however when i saw the siblings to the KWB, that assumption flew straight out the window. ALL siblings look as any regular colombian boa look right out of the importers crate. just like any siblings in a motley, jungle or aztec litter also strictly BCI morphs. If there was any BCC somewhere in the KWB morph the regular pattern siblings would have some BCC "look". there's none. The KWB is just an extraordianry looking BCI..EXTRAORDINARY! What i think happens is in KWB visuals and what is the beauty of the morph IMO, is that it "organizes" the look of the boa and gets all the speckling inside the tail out, all the speckling along the body's sides and top OUT and then "reorganizes" this speckling to form a straight continuous line along both sides of the top of the body. obviously when you clean out a tail on a Colombian boa all is left is a dark orange/reddish color, so thats where I made the error and its being made by more people. This will all correct itself in time as people come to learn the KWB boa as they have come to learn all the other morphs. Very exciting morph no doubt, just awesome!!

Cmon guys you gotta be kidding me right?

The key west boas have to have some BCC in them.
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Richard Ceniceros

heres the beauty of that statement you just made rich...you are so impressed with the look of the animal you cannot believe it!! LOL. its an exquisite sample of a BCI. no one is kidding nor pulling a leg. heres why its impossible for what youre saying to be fact:

why then are all the siblings as normal, regular, ugly or what not as any colombian bci or just like any sibling of any other bci morph be it aztec, motley, jungle, etc. integrated BCI X BCC always give off those borderline animals that act, look like a bcc. i believe this is the case with the laddertail roswells correct me if im wrong. meanwhile not a one looks this way with the KWB for the exception of the gorgeous tails of the visuals KWB. what this says to me is that the KWB gene/morph makes them this way- KILLER LOOKIN'!! the kicker is too that you get such an exquisite animal with the behavior, growing rate, breeding behavior, and all other characteristics of a BCI. I dont own any, but I am in the market and have seen every post, seen all the siblings that are posted and have seen these in the flesh..just figured id disclose that.

Here's the thing... How many posts a month go up here on KS and other forums titled "help me identify my boa" or something like that? The resounding answer is "there is no way to tell for sure." Sometimes the boa looks like it could be CA or bcc or whatever, but the bottom line is that there is NO WAY to tell for sure what the entire story is. To label it as one thing or claim that it is free of bcc blood just by looking at the outward physical characteristics is speculation and possibly an educated guess... at best. Why label it anything more than an AMAZING new morph?
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Jeff Carr
West Coast Constrictors
www.westcoastconstrictors.com

>>Here's the thing... How many posts a month go up here on KS and other forums titled "help me identify my boa" or something like that? The resounding answer is "there is no way to tell for sure." Sometimes the boa looks like it could be CA or bcc or whatever, but the bottom line is that there is NO WAY to tell for sure what the entire story is. To label it as one thing or claim that it is free of bcc blood just by looking at the outward physical characteristics is speculation and possibly an educated guess... at best. Why label it anything more than an AMAZING new morph?
>>-----
>>Jeff Carr
>>West Coast Constrictors
>>www.westcoastconstrictors.com
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Brandon Nixon

The reason their is no way to tell for sure, is because a bcc looking animal may very well be crossed with bci and sometimes the other way around. More often than not, a bci x bcc cross are easily identifiable. I would ask you if your non roswell siblings have any bcc look to them . If any of them do, then that makes them different than the non kw siblings. They have shown no bcc influence. (That is my understanding) Why would one show signs of a cross (roswell) and the kw hasnt? No matter how wattered down, their would still be at least one non kw that looks like a bcc. RIGHT ?

No matter how wattered down, their would still be at least one non kw that looks like a bcc. RIGHT ?

Do you see any hypos in a litter that look Panamanian?

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

The point that gets overlooked seems to be that all non key west siblings look like bci and not crosses. The roswell on the other hand has siblings with the bcc influence. Doent prove or disprove , but why do the siblings to roswell boas sometimes shoe bcc influence and the KW siblings have not ? This alone doesnt make sense if the KW is a BCC cross.

I think cause they may not be 50/50 BCC, BCI they may have more amounts of BCI that has diluted the BCC part.
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Richard Ceniceros

Again if the BCC is so watered down, why would the kw keep so much of the BCC look, when in fact they appear cleaner and brighter the more the are bred into other BCI's.

More color cause they were bred into other nice pastelish animals, remember even BCI can have laddertails. Take a suriname and breed it this guy and what do u think u will get?

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Richard Ceniceros

Oh and by the way this pastel line throws laddertails and reverse stripes, imagine this paired with the right laddertailed BCC. Hmmmm....
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Richard Ceniceros

beautiful animal for sure, but I guarantee you that you would definately get bcc looking animals when bred to a bcc. This still doesnt answer the question why arent their any known bcc looking KW siblings, and their are plenty of roswell siblings with the trait. I am far from an expert on this topic, but everything that I hear is speculation. If a visual verification is all it took to quote know something for sure , then be careful the next time a scarlet king bites you, because it is a coral snake. LOL

It all depends on the Individual animal...jb posted an animal that was 50% Guyana 50% "columbian" a few weeks back and if you seen it marked as a Guyana you would believe it.

The point is no one knows it isn't part this or part that but I would imagine it came from the same animal and the only current difference between the two currently is the lines of animals used to produce them and their presumed history.
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Brandon Nixon

Whats up Brandon. I see what you are saying , but if you were to look at the whole litter of BCI X BCC you will find that many of the babies will have a BCC look to them. The KW siblings have NEVER shown any BCC traits and this is why it doesnt make sense to me. Some of the roswell siblings show BCC ? NO ONE HAS BEEN ABLE TO EXPLAIN THIS. A whole thresd of theory, but when asked to figure this one out every says "I saw a cross that looked like BCI" That doesnt mean anything to me. Look at the history of the KW boa. I agree that it cant be proven with 100% accuracy, but all of the nay sayers have ZERO anecdotal or any other real evidence other than it look a lot like a roswell , so it must be the same.

not really following you on this one.The kw came from 2 bci looking animals, and no kw's were produced from this pair until the 4th or 5th litter and again all the non kw,s looked like bci ? The pastel that you have wouldnt produce roswells or kw's ? , and you would be able to tell that some were crosses. This is good stuff. Keep it coming

dan you and me are on the same page but i think more imagination and brain cells are being spent on this fairy tale, that some people FOR WHATEVER MOTIVE, continue to tell regarding KWB (clearly bci) and their being crosses with BCC. its like looking at a motley and saying they must be crossed with an anaconda cause they got circles on their back or something. just cause a KWB has a clean tail without speckling doesnt make them a bcc. it makes them a morph that cleans tails and make animals look super exquisite. i think their are wierder morph genes out there that do more wacky things to the animal thand does the KWB gene like the motely gene and the aztec for instance. why is it so hard to understand when it is crystal clear based on breeding results, evidence and documented origins to disprove this. It is just sooooo much easier to go with the evidence in front of you than to make up all the fabricated stories in ones mind and then express them with conviction and utter certaintly to the point of almost "blind to the facts" that make me wonder what is the hidden agenda or alterior motive for this. im no albert einstein, but i know enough about science to say that if theres facts and evidence to exclude a hypothesis, which clearly is the cases with the kwb & bcc relationship, then move on to another possible outcome and exclude that one. its just so much easier to accept the evidence and results.

I associate this with people believing the world was flat even after columbus proved it was round. just a crazy something that i cannot comprehend.

Manny
If you read the posts above by Jeff Ronne he himself has never said these are pure BCI. Its all speculation at this point.

The Key West Boa is an awesome boa, and i personally dont care if it does have BCC or not. Where the meal ticket is going to be is if it can produce supers like the Roswell boa. Now that will be cool.

I guess we will have to wait and see but in my opinion the key west boa appears to have BCC blood in it.
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Richard Ceniceros

i disagree he has said the opposite, he's said there is no evidence to support there is any bcc based on siblings. i think you just wrote what ive been waiting for and confirmed my suspision which is youre a huge roswell project fan. i have little doubt that the KWB will not have a super form, as does all morphs and i believe that its going to be mind blowing. i called it!!!!

best yet i like that way the kwb retains color in the hypo form as does the aztecs too. i really dont care how many morphs such as motleys, arabesques and roswells lose the pattern when in hypo. i have no problem saying point blank i dont like the roswells after discovering the KWB.

Manny
Thats where your wrong i am not a fan of the roswell, i dont own any and i dont plan on owning any.

But for the KWB to be more valuable i think its gonna have to show some type of super form or else its always gonna look like a pastelish BCC cross with a laddertail.
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Richard Ceniceros

which what your saying a cross pastellish bcc....is bad? i think as do you as everyone else that it looks beautiful as a stand alone morph. furthermore AND MORE IMPORTANTLY- lets say the morph ends there..whats wrong with that? Personally who wants a super anyway, i havent found 1 pattern super worth a nickel. they usually have "star gazing" looking head motions, live 18-36 months and dont produce live young.

WHY WHY WHY does anyone want supers? other than to prove out the morph is a bonefide morph and throw the animal in the nearest freezer.

Supers Suck!

Except the Roswell Supers don't seem to display those characteristics you have mentioned.

Also I would imagine people enjoy the idea of supers to give them better ratios on their pairings when making co dom hets.

Imagine if you had a healthy super Aztec when you produced your Aztecs het T. You could have had an entire litter of them which would translate to either more hold backs or more animals you could offer for sale.
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Brandon Nixon

i would love nothing more than healthy supers for the same reason you just said. a super aztec that can produced would of been a great parent to my litter- you're right. However thats all fantasy thus far brandon, I can imagine that alright but it would be a wasted use of my imagination unfortunately. no one's seen a healthy super to date, supposedly a super aztec fathered a litter and the outcome was a bit sketchy in my opinion to determine the father was the super. recently a super jungle had a litter of stillborns, etc. I lost 3 supers in 2007 for no reason. just one day i opened my cage and they were dead. poof!

The roswell super has yet to prove it can produce live young last i checked. if i have out dated info and super roswells have produced then thats refreshing and light at the end of the tunnel if you will. And believe me I hope the roswell super produces soon to disprove this theory of mine that no super boa of pattern morph is worth trying to produce other than color morphs (hypo, marrons, mandarins, etc). for whatever reason seems to me all pattern morph supers, in boas at least, are not born healthy even if you bring unrelated parents of the same morph into the project. I did zero projects that will equate supers this year. Its sad to say all this, and im sorry if i am the debby downer but i am just going off of what ive seen in my own boa room and that of others. Im more looking forward to VPI roswells and VPI Key Wests, Bloody Salmon Key Wests, Marron Aztecs, etc..those are the projects that i think make the future of the boa hobby very exciting..

Most definitely not a Debby downer and I agree with you on the healthy part. It is unfortunate most aren't. The super roswells I have seen seemed and acted as a normal boa. I will have to ask steve about his if they have bred.

As far as where your projects are going mine are going in a similar direction however mine will be with this charming lad...

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Brandon Nixon

gorgeous! is that a Boa Woman? i dont blame you, i would plug that into everything i could!

Yes sir, produced him last year from my pair of super clean hets...

This year ill be making some Paradigms and Paraglows so I will have some unrelated stuff...then from that point ill try sticking to BWC Stuff.

I really want to make some BWC Leopard DH's this upcoming year and debating what to do with my Roswell laddertail pair part of me wants to make supers the other part wants to try the BWC on the female and then who knows what with the male?!
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Brandon Nixon

The KWB is a beautiful snake in its own right but genetically if its just going to produce more ladders then i guess a lot of people have Key West boas or Key West surinames/guyanans etc...
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Richard Ceniceros

You only see ladder tails ? The saddles, pattern and ultra clean look which is proven genetic.This will genetically enhance the look of almost every color and pattern morph that exist !! The ladder tail is only part of the equation. There are plenty of animals that produce nice light colored funky patterned animals, but they arent jungle boas. The kw is one of the cleanest and most colorful boas I have ever seen. The fact that Jeff Ronne has enhanced the look this much with one outcrossed female is nuts. I did not see a dud in the whole litter from 2009. Just wait until pastel lines (dream,EBV....) Then you can say selective breeding makes the kw stand out. I do know that it cant be proven that the kw is bci X bci, but I dont care. They seem different to me. I hope the super form will be viable if they are produced. I believe the super marron looks to be a strong animal.

I dont care of it has BCC in it or not either, my original comment was that i do beleive it does have some BCC influence in it.

Thats all.
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Richard Ceniceros

Im done with as well. That was a long one. Whos next ?

>>Manny
>>If you read the posts above by Jeff Ronne he himself has never said these are pure BCI.

That's actually not true. Jeff has used the phrase "pure Colombians" with these before. He later retracted that statement when it was brought to his attention that he couldn't know for sure that they are "pure". Which I applaud him for!

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

brandon if you say this that jeff said i believe you. I browse the forums and find a thread here and there that catch my fancy but I am not familiar with all posts by all people by any means. however having said that last i checked his comments he said based on littermates showing zero signs of bcc influence they are bci pure. And can i add, theres no certainty in the world other than death i suppose, and therefore Jeff HAD to make that statement. Outside of the KWB looking extraordinary, nothing else in the litter does or rather looks bccish if you will. why is that? shouldnt there be 1 here and there? Why cant people just accept the KWB as PERHAPS a morph that makes whats not so nice about a regular BCI look super nice. I think genes have done crazier things to a BCI such as look at what the motley gene does to the pattern, or the aztec gene, or the Jungle etc. I think its not a far fetched notion based on how "funky" other genes make boas look and the litter mates being normal looking "nothing specials" that this could be a bci with 99.9% certainty. Its just that i read a few threads and some people seem that they're very sure like 100% about the crossing and I am left wondering where is the evidence? is it looks? well are the siblings being taken into account if you're going off of looks? obviously not, if you take this as you would a science project you then have to take into account ALL the evidence and not just the one that suits your argument. thats how things go wrong fast. Then and therefore when you take into account ALL the evidence calling this a cross is just wrong. Somehow people have it in their head that theres bcc and you cannot reason with people that just dont want to see whats in front of them..i have 25% BCC integrates, im outcrossed them with BCI yet again and you always have those babies that are more like the BCC side and these are like 4 generations removed from their bcc ancestor, you see the same with the argentine crossings where you'll see those funky ones, well wheres the funky siblings in the KWB?...

I think it was directed at JB but since my name was at the top ill give it a stab.

I am going to agree with what JB said there could be an animal that is bcc bred into a line long ago and that 50-50 animal bred to another typical columbian type animal producing 75-25 animals and so on and so fourth loosing that BCC ish look.

As I posted a pic earlier, my Roswell Laddertail girl looks VERY similar to the founding KW female.

`

I will also note that she doesnt have much of a BCC look to her, not much for peaks just has a founding KWB type look, nice colors clean pattern no pastel thrown into it yet.

Now would you agree that this male def has more of a bcc look to him?

Pardon his drab pre shed self these pics are a bit old...

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Brandon Nixon

they are definitely gorgeous and similar in appearance the kw nad roswells, however i guess where im beating the dead horse is where the roswells have those siblings that arent roswell but do look bcc, the KWB does not, you either get KWB or the normal bci's...why is that? cause if you consider the KWB to have BCC influence, then so should more animals from the litter that arent KWB have something such as widows peaks, redder than average tails,a combination of these, anything. It just doesnt seem logical to me why anyone would think that only the visual KWB get the fortune of having all the bcc looking charactersitcs and hog them all up for themselves and then gather they're crossed. its all im saying, and i would consider any and all evidence to disprove my opinion but i am not going to change my opinion based on someone else's opinion, i need breeding results to do so. cause i once thought they were crosses until i saw the siblings and came to my opinion based on the facts i saw. my opinion again is the KWB's gene makes the animal look super "nice" giving the appearance of there being bcc crossing but in actuality its a gene that intensifies and beautifies a bci. point blank because other than the kwb everything else in the litter look drab and normal. thats all i am saying folks.

I've never said that they were, or weren't intergrades.

All I've ever said is simply that NO ONE can POSSIBLY know. One of the founding animals came from a pet store with NO lineage. Therefore, to claim it is or is not an intergrade is simply a guess. Therefore, the only truthful and appropriate label is "boa constrictor". Pretty simple actually

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

DISCLAIMER!
I DO have Roswell boas! And I have also made it very public that I think that the KWB's are WAYYY better looking at this point, giving all the credit to Jeff Ronne.

If you think I have some motive or reason to try and bring the KWB project down... Well, you're just off your rocker.

I need to first say that after tracking down a few other posts regarding the KWB's on other forums I must retract my words of them being labeled as "Pure Colombian" Jeff's own words:

"We don’t use the word “pure” Colombian because we do not know the ancestry with the kind of detail that I know many of my other bloodlines."
Jeff Ronne 10/17/09

So for the "Pure Colombian" reference, I apologize. I could have sworn that they were labeled as such.

However, the very next day, in the same thread... While adressing the KWB's being bred to Roswells:

Then since they are already a cross, any breeding is going to be technically a "cross". Nothing "wrong" with that and I don't have anything against that obviously, or I would not have gotten into the Roswell project to begin with. However, since the Key West kids are Colombians, there just isn't any reason for me to do any kind of a "cross" with them. There are too many morphs that they haven't been bred into to even think about doing that breeding. In fact, they haven't been bred into any of the Morphs yet!
Jeff Ronne 10/18/09

This is a quote from another forum as well. Not from Jeff, but it was never corrected by Jeff so it would seem he agrees. And with Lar appearing to be the KWB's public defender (just a friendly jab in Lar's ribs, nothing serious), this seems like a bold statement.

I'm a huge fan of the all Colombian KWB's , they are totally Colombian Boas there is not an ounce of Suri or Guyanese type Bcc blood in them
LarM 2/24/10

I will say that they are referred to as Colombian, with no trace of bcc influence on a regular basis. I just don't get that. Rarely anymore do we as "morphers" apply the Colombian tag to our babies for sale. Yeah, in the Motley case we do more often, but only because there is a C.A. and Colombian version. So why the constant Colombian tag or reference? Seems odd to me.

So my question is this:
Say a bcc and a bci were crossed. Mom was bci and dad was bcc. Out of all of the offspring one that were produced, some will look like mom, some will look like dad and some will have traits of both... Correct? So take a baby that looks just like the mom (remember she's the bci) and breed that to a more common (non bcc) boa. You would think that this litter would show little resemblance to the grandfather, remember now, he's a bcc. Take again, a baby that shows few of the bcc traits and grow that one up and breed it. Do you see what I mean? It could all be lost in the mix.

By the way, this is a non Key West sibling. I think it looks like it COULD possibly have a touch of bcc to it. But then again maybe it's just me...

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Jeff Carr
West Coast Constrictors
www.westcoastconstrictors.com

I think that baby looks just like its Mother ! Unless you think this
Lopez fem looks like a Bcc Suri/Guya influenced Boa ?
If that's the case . . . . I give up.

The Lopez fem was produced in the mid 90's

Here she is with her first Monstertail litter 2002

Lopez fem more recent shot I believe after birth of KWB's

Here are KWB & siblings from the Black hole side by side

From different forum Jeff's Full statement
10-17-2009, 03:47 PM The_Boaphile
>>Zach obtained the original female from his Dad. His Dad had a friend of the family that happened to have a pair of Boas that just popped out babies unexpectedly. Those animals were bred in 1998 or 1999 and were just pet trade Boas not any specialty morph Boas or other locality Boas of any type. They were adults at that time of course so they must have been born before 1996 likely. Crossing anything was a big no no and rarely occurred until several years later. "Pure" in my mind can only be applied to animals you know came from one locality. Know means know. Do we know it? No. So we do not use that precise word. Do we believe it based upon all that we do know of it's history and the appearance of the parents etc? Yes. Just Boas that for all that we have seen both from Zach's litter, and mine are Colombians.

. . . Lar M

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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Not offended and I'm not under the impression anyone has made a
claim of absolute purity as in Locality specific.

My point is made rather clearly in my post to Dave.

By the way I'm smiling the whole time I'm typing here not upset or P.O.'d at you or or anyone.

I enjoy these heavy discussions, they get my mind working, I'm forced to think about my answers.
I'm forced to think deeply about my answers, this helps me make some good points and
present those points hopefully some what eloquently.

It's all good here Jeff

. . . Lar M
Right Dave but....

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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

I know it's all about the discussion Lar. Good times right! I TRULY can't wait to see what Jeff has in store for the KWB's. I just hope that when I'm ready, he'll sell me one. LOL!
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Jeff Carr
West Coast Constrictors
www.westcoastconstrictors.com

Guess what Me Too . . . on all accounts !

I can say there is some amazing KWB stuff that's brewing !

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

He's a beauty Steve-O , I don't have one yet but I will continue
to work on that situation and rectify it.

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

This information has been posted before. It has been read by some of the people who have done follow-up posts here regardless of what they say here now. This is the information regarding the origin of the Key West Boas.

Zach Murray bred the original Key West female in 2005. When she produced that litter, she was bred with her brother. The male that bred her is her brother. They were both born in 1999 or 2000. Zach obtained these Boas from his Dad who was a snake fancier before Zach was. Zach's Dad obtained them from the guy who bred them. Zach was able to track this fellow down and speak to him about their origin. The guy is no longer into Boas in any way. He knew nothing about what was going on with them. Zach simply asked where they came from and when he obtained them. Zach was told that the parents of Zach's original Key West female were born to a pair of Boas that he had purchased in the 1980's as Colombian Boas. The litter that Zach's original female Key West Boa was born in 4th or 5th litter that pair of Boas had produced.

When Zach told me about the conversation he had with the breeder of his Boas he told me he was nervous about what the answer was going to be. I was not nervous as I knew what I was looking at and I was able to intellectually separate the visual appearance of the Boas with the mutation from having to be any definitive indicator of the origin of their ancestors. For me the non-mutant siblings told the tale. Zach was fearful that this guy was going to say they were some type of cross or that one was a true red tail of some sort. However, without asking a leading question the original breeder simply told him his Boas were sold to him as Colombians. He sold babies as Colombians. Primarily to pet shops in those times when he produced litters.

That is what was know. Any other hunches are simply that and contrary to the information we have honestly sought out.

As for Steve's original request to post them. Here is one. I like him and his classic outrageous Pastel wash a lot!
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

So Like Steve-O posted....If you got one,show it.

But I don't have ONE David.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Well Jeff , send me one , and I'll gladly post it.
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Snake room janitor

Will you post it all soapy and in the bath tub?
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

They're clean enough for me already.
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Snake room janitor

The important info being that at some point in the lineage, a founding animal of this line was purchased from a pet store. Beyond that, no lineage is known and thus, is merely assumed.

As you said before Jeff, "know means know". "Assumed" on the other hand, does not mean "know".

Therefore, calling these animals "Colombians" means the person calling them that is making an assumption quite simply because, they don't "know".
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

Well said JB..
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Richard Ceniceros

"All I've ever said is simply that NO ONE can POSSIBLY know. One of the founding animals came from a pet store with NO lineage. Therefore, to claim it is or is not an intergrade is simply a guess. Therefore, the only truthful and appropriate label is "boa constrictor". Pretty simple actually."
Jonathan Brady

"The important info being that at some point in the lineage, a founding animal of this line was purchased from a pet store. Beyond that, no lineage is known and thus, is merely assumed.
As you said before Jeff, "know means know". "Assumed" on the other hand, does not mean "know". Therefore, calling these animals "Colombians" means the person calling them that is making an assumption quite simply because, they don't "know"."
Jonathan Brady

THANK YOU! Thank YOU! THANK YOU!
That is all I have ever tried to say. I'm glad someone can wrap their brain around it. However... I have to come to Jeff's defense here. His original back story on the KWB's was that one of the parents was from a pet shop. After talking to Zach a bit more and investigating further, they found out that the babies from the original pair were sold to pet stores, that was the original pet store connection. But they were sold to this guy as "Colombian" boas. But then again, PetCo, Pet Smart and a thousand mom an pop shops sell "Colombian Red Tail boas" all day long, for decades without truly knowing what was in the mix.

Bottom line is this: There is now whay to tell. That being said, I believe the KWB's are better looking at this point, and probably healthier due to Jeff's outcrossing.
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Jeff Carr
West Coast Constrictors
www.westcoastconstrictors.com

Zach thought the parents of his Key West female, produced by a fellow who was an "ex" of one of his family members, were just Pet Shop Boas. Zach, though he was reluctant to call and speak with this "ex" did so and obtained the information that clarified that the parents of both the Mother of the original Key West Boas and the male who bred her, who is her obvious Colombian looking sibling, were purchase as captive born animals from a breeder as "Colombian Boas". This was detailed above but some might have missed it.

Information

Those original "Colombian Boas" and parents of Zach's Boas, were both captive born in the 1980's. The denial of anecdotal information passed on from breeder to breeder is fine for those who choose to do so. However, few will do it universally with all their own animals, choosing only to use this standard selectively on other people's animals when it suits them. I and the vast majority of Boa people choose to believe the anecdotal information passed on, and will in turn pass it on to our customers as accurately as we know how to do.

Like it or not; this is the truth.

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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Thx for further Clarification Jeff!! N/P

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

I honestly don't come on this forum much anymore because the majority of what I'm interested in gets posted on one of the two other boa forums I visit and I prefer the discourse of one of those two over any other site. It's mostly due to the fact that the site rules aren't as stringent with regards to what can and can't be said. And as a result, some PHENOMENAL conversations come out because people feel free to discuss whatever topic they want without fear of retaliation via the TOS. Interestingly, the vast majority of what gets discussed there would be totally allowable here and the forum users have all developed a very healthy respect for one another. So despite the fact that it could break out into the wild wild west, it doesn't.

I also don't generally read all (and sometimes any) of a particular thread on boa morphs. Quite often if I look, I scan them for pictures to be honest. It has been quite a while since I've delved into a thread about the KWB's and didn't know that the background information had been further researched.

Being someone who appreciates background information, I'm glad someone took the time to research back as far as they could. It doesn't sound like anyone went back to WC with their info, but it does seem like only Colombian blood has been used (to the best of everyone's knowledge) for 2 decades.

I personally don't feel comfortable claiming country of origin unless I know with 100% certainty what country an animal was exported from. But that's my standard and I don't impose that on others. If I were selling a KWB, I'd just call it a KWB. If someone pressed for a country of origin, I'd probably say something like "the evidence suggests that they're Colombian but due to lost lineage 20-ish years ago, we can't be 100% certain - but that doesn't matter because they're FREAKING GORGEOUS!"

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

Another great post JB.

I hope i didnt lose a friend over this thread. Yikes!
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Richard Ceniceros

Exactly Jonathan Brady. Thanks for a level headed reasonable response.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

>>Thanks for a level headed reasonable response.

Yeah, I have those in me once in a while

Hope your weekend is off to a great start Señor Boaphile

We're looking at low to mid 80's here. How about yourself? Dig out of that snowstorm yet

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

It's beautiful here this morning Jonathan Brady. Took to little doggie for her walk this morning and I'd say it's "brisk". Zero degrees but no wind. A beautiful morning in Minnesota!

First female due May 1st is looking really good too!

A great day!
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

I took my dog for a walk this morning and we were chasing each other out in a field. Got sweaty! It was warm! lol

My one and only female should be having her POS here in about 2-3 days. Thanks to you, Mr. Ronne, I know she'll gestate for another 105 or so days after that, prior to giving birth

Have a great weekend
jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

Wow!!! Never did I imagine a simple picture thread would turn into this!Rotflmao

Hey anyone hear from ZACH MURRAY lately??
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Steve Hamm
www.greatlakesconstrictors.com

Oh yeah cross ya alls fingers for some Red Group KWBs! Yeeeeah buddy!
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Steve Hamm
www.greatlakesconstrictors.com

Yaa Bigg Red and KWB's , lets see 'um I hope you get a great big
litter of Colombian KWB X Big Red Colombian babies!!

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Sweet... Im very curious to see all the key west combos.
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Richard Ceniceros

>>Oh yeah cross ya alls fingers for some Red Group KWBs! Yeeeeah buddy!
>>-----
>>Steve Hamm
>>www.greatlakesconstrictors.com

Killer! The RG/KW's will be amazing. My fingers are crossed for you Steve.
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Jeff Carr
West Coast Constrictors
www.westcoastconstrictors.com

Thanks Jeff!
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Steve Hamm
www.greatlakesconstrictors.com