Reptile & Amphibian Forums

First off It's almost like two different worlds, and thank GOD I feel more at home here! I was feeling like I had crossed over into the twilight Zone! Well, to clarify.....The guy who was culling snakes was trying to engineer a mouse eating Gray Band, and a Cal king with a better attitude, by selective breeding for those traits. I do believe those things can be improved by selective breeding, but I was completely shocked that he was killing off all the ones that didn't meet those standards. What really threw me for a loop was that so many people were backing him up! Raising snakes to feed to Coral snakes or what ever, is understandable, but this guy was playing GOD in my opinion. Thanks for your honest answers, I'm glad I'm not alone, with Mike on this! Thanks Mike,aka(slitheringdead)! Oh yeah Doug, you made me feel better too bro, thanks! I thought I was in some bizzaro world over there. I have to say that it maybe more of a Corn snake mind set, or view? I knew King Snake people would react differently, or at least I hoped they would, and you gys didn't let me down!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

What little I know about corn snakes is they quite often cull themselves by failing to ever start feeding. I recall the box of baby corns for $10 each at a recent reptile show that where billed as non-feeders.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

No, I don't think it is a corn snake mind view. I know breeders who have been breeding corns for decades, and while you do have some corns that do not do well to reacting to stimuli in getting to feed, these fine breeders still did not do the lazy thing this fool was doing. They TRY!

Face it, the guy is selfish and lazy. No other words need to be said.

Engineering a mouse eating grayband??? HA!! I know one breeder who has almost a 100 percent success rate in getting his graybands to eat mice from the first time, for most of his clutches. This grayband I own pictured was the biggest yearling I had ever seen when I purchased him, as he was eating from the get-go, mice:

I also know someone who has maybe a handful of baby corns not eat for him a year. All the others, hundreds, do well, eating mice at first.

And a cal king with a better attitude? In my experience, every cal king I have owned and/or bred were puppy dog tame, except one. Babies I hatched and sold were nippy out of the egg, but were fine afterwards once they got set up in their cages. No biting.

The two examples above I mentioned are of people who have taken the time to learn, deal with trial and error, and had the patience to develop proper techniques that work for the animal. It can be done. Just takes that little word called patience. Unfortunately, the " mad culler " you speak of lacks maturity and just simply doesn't want to put forth the time to properly get these poor snakes, he culls so quickly, set up on a proper feeding regimen. He needs to leave this hobby and leave right now.
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Genesis 1:1

"Face it, the guy is selfish and lazy. No other words need to be said"

.....yeah, simple as that!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

I finally read the entire thread.
The guy is a moron......
He states somewhere that he only culled 50% of one Calking clutch because half of them had somewhat decent attitudes.....
WTF?........
On what day?.......Some calkings are calm one day and cranky then next.......
This guy has no idea what he is doing. It tempted me to sign up for a cornsnake.com account just to tell him what I thought, but who the hell am I?

The guy should raise guppies and be happy.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

just read an article about foxes being selectively bred for domestication behavior......this is being done in russia.....actually proving out a "domesticated phenotype"/........kinda neat....

>>just read an article about foxes being selectively bred for domestication behavior......this is being done in russia.....actually proving out a "domesticated phenotype"/........kinda neat....
>>

Yeah I read that a while back, when Tony D posted a link to it. I do believe that many traits can be engineered by selective breeding, the problem I had with the guy that was Culling is he was killing off anything that didn't meet his unreal standards.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I have another thing to add....
After re reading the thread......I have come to the conclusion that I will never sign up for Cornsnake.com because there are a bunch of morons there......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>I have another thing to add....
>>After re reading the thread......I have come to the conclusion that I will never sign up for Cornsnake.com because there are a bunch of morons there......LOL
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>>John Lassiter
>>Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...
>>
>>

I don't like to judge the entire community over there for the comments of a few. But seriously John, were you thinking about getting into Cornsnakes, lol
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

>>
>>I don't like to judge the entire community over there for the comments of a few. But seriously John, were you thinking about getting into Cornsnakes, lol

NOPE...done that for a couple years and found out that they are more stubborn to get to eat than Mexicana and Alterna.......Should've just culled them.......LMAO!!!!!!

BTW...I wasn't judging the entire group....just a single bunch of them.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yeah Jorge, many of the followup comments over there were every bit as stupid as the original poster.

I hope this dumb-ass never produces a kid. I mean.....what if it started crying right off the bat?

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

"I hope this dumb-ass never produces a kid. I mean.....what if it started crying right off the bat?"

You know Darwin had an answer to that! LOL
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I will not defend the guy's actions--I have already said what I believe in that I wouldn't be as radical as he is. I see the value in euthanizing weak, deformed, etc., snakes rather than prolonging their agony in the marketplace. What I will do is call behavior. I don't know most of you but I do know Billy (discern) and he has professed a relationship with Christ as has Jorge. Got to tell you two you aren't shining bright for the faith with your remarks. I read the post also--Jorge, were you disrespected by anyone in that post/forum????? And I'm not in a position to judge anyone who is not a Christian. But I am for those who profess. I am ashamed of what has transpired. May God forgive you!!!!!
I'll not be back!!!!

Shalom,

Reverend Pat Glazener-Cooney

>>I will not defend the guy's actions--I have already said what I believe in that I wouldn't be as radical as he is. I see the value in euthanizing weak, deformed, etc., snakes rather than prolonging their agony in the marketplace. What I will do is call behavior. I don't know most of you but I do know Billy (discern) and he has professed a relationship with Christ as has Jorge. Got to tell you two you aren't shining bright for the faith with your remarks. I read the post also--Jorge, were you disrespected by anyone in that post/forum????? And I'm not in a position to judge anyone who is not a Christian. But I am for those who profess. I am ashamed of what has transpired. May God forgive you!!!!!
>>I'll not be back!!!!
>>
>>Shalom,
>>
>>Reverend Pat Glazener-Cooney

Did I miss something? What happened?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I don't think I said anything disrespectfull? I am really scratching my head on your comment? I was just pointing out what I thought to be a total disregard for life. Any life is GOD given and should be respected! To treat them as disposable animals is wrong, but If I offended you somehow, I appologize for what ever it was. Maybe you missundertsood me?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Pat,

My brother, since I, like Jorge, am scratching my head about your last post, and how it transpired to talking about another's faith, I will keep this short:

1. This guy was not euthanizing weak, deformed snakes. He was culling due to them not fitting in with his selfish plans and lack of patience. What he did was senseless, end of story. These were innocent animals.

2. Me, Jorge, and many others, are just simply disgusted with this person's actions. Remember, these snakes and their lives, according to what myself, you, and many others would believe, were created by God. They were not pests, or making anyone's life a horrendous mess. They were hatched in captivity, and put down because of selfishness. They were not respected!! They could have been given away, or sold for a few bucks. They were and are completely innocent. That fact alone should be all that needs to be said.

Please tell me you can see that big picture.

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Genesis 1:1

And I'm not in a position to judge anyone who is not a Christian. But I am for those who profess. I am ashamed of what has transpired. May God forgive you!!!!!
I'll not be back!!!!

Reverend Pat Glazener-Cooney

Actually Pastor Pat you are not in a position to judge either those with faith or without. It's in God's merciful hands to judge one's faith and actions.

Perhaps you should reacquaint yourself with Matthew 7 1-6 and Luke 6 37-42.

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BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
0.3 P. c. sayi red bulls
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 D. corais Yellowtail Cribos
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

yup,,, amen! brothers an sisters of the herp. world ,,,lol:9 snaketaboo77 1:0.01 do you speak herps?

Pat,
I do hope you will not just take all your marbles and go home. LOL! If we were all in person instead of trying to communicate via text on a screen I think perhaps these sorts of misunderstandings would be mitigated to a great extent. On the other hand, look at the Middle East; they are up front and personal and what a mess!

Shalom
Bob the Atheist

The Meaning of Shalom

Shalom - שלום (sha-lome) "When we hear the word peace we usually associate this to mean an absence of war or strife but, the Hebrew meaning of the word shalom has a very different meaning. The verb form of the root word is shalam and is usually used in the context of making restitution. When a person has caused another to become deficient in some way, such as a loss of livestock, it is the responsibility of the person who created the deficiency to restore what has been taken, lost or stolen. The verb shalam literally means to make whole or complete. The noun shalom has the more literal meaning of being in a state of wholeness or with no deficiency.
What a wonderful concept; to make whole again, to restore to proper balance.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Hi All, and particularly Pat, Long time no hear from. I hope your well.

Do stay away, end of that.

next, I have some questions about this and I do not have the time to read the entire thread.

What is the reason for culling for Mouse feeding Greybands or calmer cal kings. Are cal kings nasty, I must have missed those two after producing many many hundreds of both.

Well, I imagine he is doing it to make it easier to sell his snakes. That brings up, what kind of screwball, would kill product. Its not like the culls have any physical problem They are normal. So, I with my brillant mind thinks. Either hes not after mouse feeding grey bands or calmer kings, "hes after attention". And maybe not actually killing off culled snakes.

Really, how much money would it add if he has pinky feeding grey bands from the shows I have been to less then $10. So, So, he makes $20 for a pinkie feeder and loses $10 for every one he culls. Hmmmmmmmmmm not a good business person. With cal kings, there would be no actual added value. so culling is a total loss.

By chance he is killing them off, well, there will be a very special place in hell for him. You do know, you do not need to worry about that. Your boss will take care of it.

Again, there is no money in colubrids, specially normals. So to cull for such an odd thing, by killing off the culled animals. Simply does not make sense.

So my vote is, its a sham. just something to bring attention to him or something. Take care my friend.

He owns a pet shop and he was trying to make a more marketable product. I agree that it doesn't make sense. I guess he is more worried about selling an animal and then having customers return with complaints about their children getting bit, or a snake that they can't feed cause they live where lizards are not common. I also believe it's a mindset that has come about from the cornsake market being so flooded that they think it's ok to sacrifice 30 babies to end up with 6 that might sell?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I would give the guy $10 and pay shipping for each of his non-feeding graybands in a heartbeat. I would then get many of those to feed on pinkies within a few months and sell them for more than I paid easily.

The guy has no clue.
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Mark

are you posting as Snakehead there? I read that thread after it got linked.
LOL @ the line about butt ugly locality gray bands too, because I feel that way.

I'm ok with some culling, but killing an animal for not taking pinkies quickly or for having an attitude? Yeck.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

Yep...I simply cull another way.....
I sell the ones that I don't want to holdback.....
But I work hard to get them all feeding prior to sale.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yeah that's me, lol. I speak from the heart1 Sorry to any Locality Alterna guys, that's just my opinion.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I did think of something though:
Say I'm working with both corns (or kings or whatever) and also with an snake eating species--be it corals or king cobras or whatever, and I decide I'll do a 50/50 split based on best overall "pet" quality? I'm not breeding them purely for food, or purely for pets.

I can see myself doing that; if say, I convince my wife to let me work with Aspidelaps and I've got one or two that are stubborn...I can see feeding weaker house snakes to them even if it was from a clutch I'd bred for sale/to add to my colony
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

You expressed my sentiments exactly. I even hate it when I have to put down a deformed hatchling and the only justification I can see for culling unwanted animals is to feed to something else.
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http://www.mikefoux.com
http://www.snakerack.info

Hondurans
Pueblans
Corns
Grey-banded King
California Kings
Speckled Kings (Calcasieu Parish locality)
Brooksi
Goini/Brooksi Crosses
San Diego gophers
Texas Rat
Jungle Carpet Python
Ball Python
BCI
Sulcata
Leopard Geckos
Wife, Caucasius Mexicana Integrade WC

Jorge, i liked your response to that person who was talking about if you believe that life is sacrosanct, then you shouldn't breed anything (create life) and spend your resource/time helping the existing life, such as homeless people, people with HIV, etc... I was thinking about responding in some long wordy way to debunk his/her line of thinking, but in this case, your blunt response was exactly what was needed!

It finally hit me why they have stooped to this level. It is a Cornsnake mentality! not all but many Corn snake breeders. The Corn snake market has gotten so flooded that they can't sell anything unless it is a hot new morph! So they have convinced themselves it's ok to kill off all the animals they consider sub-par. Which includes picky feeders, temperment, and I am willing to bet, many cull off normals and hets also. That is what has evolved in that arena. I hope it doesn't spread to the kingsnake world.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

I think that assessment is correct. Can you imagine them having a conversation with a random person about what they do as a snake breeder? It would probably go something like this (it's kind of long!)

Breeder: So yeah, i love corn snakes. They make great pets and come in a variety of beautiful colors. Snakes are often misunderstood as evil creatures that will bite you at any opportunity, so i also find myself being an ambassador to the hobby and educating the public about them. Here... you can pet him. He's really docile.

RandomPerson: [Pets the snake] Oh yeah, he feels kinda neat. I like him. He's really pretty too.

Breeder: Yeah, he is right? It took 3 years of breeding for me to produce him. [Tickles snake]. You are so cute, yes you are! And so well behaved!

RandomPerson: 3 years, that must have took a lot of dedication. How many litter mates does he have?

Breeder: Oh he had 9 litter mates, but i had to kill them.

RandomPerson: Wait... What? What happened?

Breeder: Oh excuse me, i meant... i culled them.

RandomPerson: Why did you cull them? Were they sick or deformed? That must be a heartbreaking thing to do for a snake lover like yourself.

Breeder: Oh no... they weren't sick. I didn't like their color. They were brown and i wanted a red one.

RandomPerson: Err... what?

Breeder: Well, no one wants a brown snake right? Hah hah. You like red better right?

RandomPerson: Umm... isn't that kind of cruel?

Breeder: Nah, i kill them humanely. Oh sorry... i meant, i cull them humanely. They don't feel a thing. After all, they're just snakes! So... do you want to buy a snake? They make great pets and look how pretty this one is. [Tickles snake again].

Yeah that's the same problem I am having with all this too! It doesn't make sense to me. That's like guy I used to know who was a veternarian assistant, but on the side he bred fighting Pitt Bulls. huh? The must have some twisted reasoning for what they do?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

Yeah, that's pretty much the deal. The ironic way you unfolded the story at the vendor's table was pretty funny, but yet sad because it was right on the button....or should I say......"MONEY"!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

I can’t explain my reasoning but deep down I think it has to do with the Cornsnake Registry. The moment we started wanting pedigrees for snakes I started getting out of corns. Don’t get me wrong I still love them and still keep a few pairs and I have plenty of friends on the CS forum it just struck me as wrong somehow.

Yes, sadly I think you hit it on the head.