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About uv bulbs.

FR Feb 21, 2011 01:00 PM


These pictures are of neonates from different clutches of the same season. As in, first and second clutches.

The top is of two sibling whitethroats, one is aprox six months older then the smaller one. Same parents, different cutches.

The larger was raised a diet of mice and did not have any UV available to it. Its was raised with a 25watt incandesent bulb. Then a 45 watt halogen bulb. Thats it no sunlite, no additives.

The lower pic is very recent. That little fella was a new years baby, hatched on the 1st of this year. The larger one hatched in mid april of 2010. They too are first and second clutches. Also the larger was raised with a 25 watt, incandesent bulb, then larger incandesents as it outgrew its cage. oh, and we have more, the larger one is not even the biggest. They were raised in the same exact cages as the above whitethroats.

In the torts case, it was not even supplimented until recently. And for no actual reason, we have suppliments, so my son asked if he could use some. I just asked him how often he uses it, and he said, about once a week. Its a mix of reptical and herptivite.

These are just two good pics. That show rapid growth and good growth and good shape and color, without Uv bulbs of any kind or sunlite.

If required, I can show pics of many species of monitors raised indoors without UV bulbs that express GREAT color and form. All without out UV bulbs of any kind. Enjoy

Replies (36)

Paradon Feb 21, 2011 01:57 PM

The UVB light has been shown to reverse the softening of the shell of turtles and tortoises and increase the appetite while the set-up and diet remained the same. IF they are not producing the vitamin D3 by exposure to the UVB, then they must be getting it via the diet.

FR Feb 21, 2011 02:07 PM

Sorry if I misled you. These torts do not have soft shells, so they do not need to be hardened. Sir, that is the point. They also are not pyramided, the shells are well formed and strong, without UV bulbs or sunlite.

Normal husbandry should mean there is no need to apply a bandaid. Which is what UV bulbs are. A bandaid or quick fix.

With proper temps to choose from, and they are very easy to apply. You have no need for fix anything. Which is the case with the animals in the picture.

The truth is, there are as many calicum problems with animals that have UV bulbs as there are with those that don't. Just ask Bob? Where he got his animals from, constantly had calicum problems(personal communication with Bob Sutton and Joe Lewis) and he used UV bulbs.

Paradon Feb 21, 2011 02:20 PM

I think you misunderstood me.... I said: if they are not producing the vitamin D3 from exposure to sunlight or UVB bulb, then they must be getting from the food. Everybody say my juvy box turtle is some of the best juvy they've ever seen because I feed him/her a well rounded diet, and he does get exposure to sunglight....

FR Feb 21, 2011 08:42 PM

they always get the calicum from the food. That is a given. What UV is suppose to do is convert D to D-3 and d-3 allows calicum to be utilized.

And not, as I mentioned, they did not get d-3 in their diet, with the monitors. And the torts only recieved suppliments once a week in the last couple of months. Most of their growth was before that.
Thanks

willstill Feb 21, 2011 02:18 PM

Hi,

Yeah, I noticed a similar thing in my spotted turtle hatchlings(when I bred them). But instead of uv, I always assumed that my basking temps were lower than they should be, as the shells hardened right up after I increased the intensity and duration of the basking heat provided. I agree with those who believe that herps (all) can extract all that they need from food if they are allowed to digest at adequate temps.

Will

murrindindi Feb 21, 2011 02:39 PM

Hi, then why did they evolve the ability to metabolise UVB rays into D3 if it isn`t needed, and more to the point, kept that adaptation? (Just a question, I personally think it`s very useful, even as a "back up"!

willstill Feb 21, 2011 03:45 PM

"I personally think it`s very useful, even as a "back up"!"

Hi, I agree 100%!

I think UV, as a key to calcium metabolism, is exactly as you stated, a back up. My opinion is, that when D3 cannot be gathered through preferred channels, such as ingestion of the needed raw materials (usable food) and broad temperature choices (which they are happy to use), then the animal can utilize this other key that unlocks calcium metabolism. I think that it is all part of the critter's evolutionary survival toolbox, as a last resort, sit directly in the sun (uv).

Maybe that's why, in the north east in early spring, herps are out in the open, basking. Perhaps they are trying to use calcium to fuel growth but cannot asccess the temps that they need, so they sit directly, or partially in the sun to access that key -D3. But, when mass temps increase as the season goes on, those same critters will be under cover absorbing heat. I also believe that this is true in large part for all herps, from snakes and lizards, to turtles and dart frogs. If they are allowed to reach their preferred usable temps, they can draw what they need from their food.

Thanks, good discussion.

Will

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murrindindi Feb 21, 2011 04:09 PM

Yes, it`s an excellent discussion, it`s nice we can all give our opinions on this topic in particular, in some places (forums), I might very well be shot at dawn (and hung, just to make sure), for daring to suggest UVB irradiation is beneficial to these animals.
If an adaptation is detrimental to the animal it either loses it, or becomes weak and suffers in some way, in extreme cases, if it were important for their survival, they`d become extinct. I have to say, thanks to Frank R., over the last few weeks, I`ve seen the results he`s had over many years, and I`m convinced they CAN live long, productive and healthy lives when fed a basic diet of rodents, providing ALL the other parameters are met, without UVB exposure or supplementation (but not for all species, especially those that may receive a mainly invertebrate diet).
But I`ll probably still offer my monitors a variety of foods, and still make use of the UVB emmiting lamps, which is just my choice, and everyone else is free to make theirs!
I think the ability to absorb and use the sun`s rays is similar to their venom system, it`s just another "weapon" in their arsenal.

francis_foche Feb 22, 2011 01:12 AM

Murrindindi wrote
I`ve seen the results he`s had over many years, and I`m convinced they CAN live long, productive and healthy lives when fed a basic diet of rodents, providing ALL the other parameters are met, without UVB exposure or supplementation (but not for all species, especially those that may receive a mainly invertebrate diet).

And what about the Frank's torts ? No UVs, no rodents, no significant supplementation. That's why I think they are a better example in this "Uv bulbs" discussion than monitors. Those animals are strictly vegetarians (no liver in vegies) and have a huge needs in calcium absorbtion. Talking about Megarays, I personnaly wouldn't buy anything from people who are dayly washing their iguanas with a furret shampoo, I just watched their videos and it basically said : " maybe your husbandry sucks (just like ours) but if you use our super bulbs all your problems will be solved " , ok they give a good advices on feeding but that something you can read even in the worst iguana care books. The thing with all those UV experts is they are diverting people from the real problems/solutions.(heat, food, humidity, security feelig : the basic husbandry)

fabrizio13 Feb 21, 2011 04:11 PM

The theory of using sunlight as a back up is actually quite interesting. Really good theory and it seems that people are only testing if UVB is necessary or not. Great theory, and I'd like to see some testing on it.

And also on UV bulbs, isn't it better to use the sun than spend 30 bucks on a bulb that lasts 5-6 months and the sun is free year round? I like free, more money for feeders, and more importantly, more reptiles!
-----
Jason

murrindindi Feb 21, 2011 04:24 PM

Hi Jason, back home in Oz, I could almost guarantee sunshine, at least part of the year, here in England, it`s just as rumour (not sure who started it, but it needs to stop)!
I use the "Megaray" lamps, they have been thoroughly tested, and are as close to natural sunlight as it`s possible to get at the recommended distances (that varies with the different wattages), they are relatively expensive, but they can last at least 12 months, and the UVB output is still much higher than many other lamps, especially the tubes, even after a year, so good value, I think.

FR Feb 21, 2011 07:34 PM

Heres what I would tell folks, how about taking that money and giving so much heat, it forces them to retire(into shelters) AS that is normal behavior for varanids in nature. Then Take that money and purchase more monitor food. It will work far better, except you will have problems getting rid of or housing all the extra monitors you will have.

Bob Feb 28, 2011 06:05 PM

Interesting point here is why would a rock monitor choose a basking site on a 55F sunny day [outdoors] here in Ohio over the indoor 120F of a mercury vapor uvb lamp? My monitors have the choice of indoor uvb hot spots and outdoor sun, they choose the sun even though the ambient temp is much cooler. That kinda told me they know what they want.
Bob

FR Feb 21, 2011 04:24 PM

Your missing the point, And really missing it. I will give you this, its a hard point to get.

First you have been educated that UVB and UVA are responsible for the conversion of vitamin D into D-3, which allows calicum to be placed. First, thats based on mammals and mammals only.

What is forgotten is, reptiles are not mammals. Mammals do have a defined limit as to how much heat they can take.

Reptiles are not mammals. Which means they do not live with one narrow body temperature. They utilize a wide range of body temps. You can observe that reptiles use different temps for different tasks. That is easy enough. In your case, don't feed your monitors and take temps, then feed them heavily and take their temps, then feed them litely and take their temps. Repeat that many times and you will recieve some very consistnat results. You need to offer a range of temps that goes above what you think they will use. Say up 175F. Once they use it, raise it higher. Sounds fun huh?

What we see is, they are able to convert D to D-3 at higher volunterary temps. That is, the hotter temps they pick are more effecient as utilizing calicum.

Again, your taking what you read or have read, and holding it above actual results. This is where you error. Science is results. The pics above are accurate, no sunlite or UV bulbs were used and both animals increased their skeletal mass, many many times over. If there was a calicum placement problem, those animals were be dead, not suffering from soft bones or shell.

What I do not understand is the failure to question actual results. For instance, we/us/i showing you this, should inspire you to test it. But, for some reason you don't. May I ask why?

I do understand your need to believe what you read, its very hard, as we are taught to answer our tests and pass our class by doing so. But they also taught me/us in biology, the difference between academics and applied knowledge. Or better yet, the class and the LAB. The LAB verifies and proves the theory.

In our cases, our animals are the lab. They prove the theories. The above pictures are proof and I and others have hundreds more pics if you like.

In your case, your head is a worldwind of theories and read understanding. And its clashing with real results. That has to hurt.

In high school, I had a great teacher in biology. he kept teaching me to think, to question, and to question somemore. He taught us, to read is not to believe, its to be aware of. To believe, is something real.
Now for the hard part, heat equals Uv, Uv equals heat. They both do the same thing. What is missing with low temperature uv is, it does not effect other needs like the digestion of food, which is most efficienct had higher temps, the building of the immune system, which apparently is more effiecient at higher temps.

So reptiles utilizie the upper end of their temp range to strengthen these areas, and utilize the lower ends for the conservation of resources, like food and water.

UV bulbs only address one need, high heat accomplishes many.
Good luck

murrindindi Feb 21, 2011 04:56 PM

First I need to say again, Frank R., you give terrific answers!
I DO understand that UVB and UVA are just a part of the whole picture, of course, they operate within a range of temps, but they have an upper limit of core temps, once above that, they very quickly have serious problems, so the very high basking temps just allow them to reach their "activity" range quickly, VERY useful for monitors, whether in the wild, or captivity.
So I agree, it`s the heat that helps most of all, without it, they`re unable to do anything other than "rest", so they can`t metabolise or do anything at all.
But I ask again; why have they evolved the ability to absorb UVB through their skin and metabolise it into D3, if it isn`t needed, or at least of some use?

FR Feb 21, 2011 07:19 PM

hello again. I the way we answer and the way many people intertwine, the subjects lose some meaning or direction.

for instance. The ability to place calicum is a problem in captivity. But its not the only problem. Anytime you take an animal out of its normal physical relm. You going to see a series of problems.

Such things as Respitory problems, upper and lower. Or mouth rot, and calicum problems. Are all based on abnormal or subpar enviornmental support. That is external support. This should be addressed. Not UV bulbs.

What a temperature range does is support that whole area. Not simply calicum placement.

It also supports the rapid digestion of food items so that that energy can be used for important life events. Like growth and reproduction. The lack of a decent flow of nutrients is part of the calicum problem.

You mentioned on another side reply, that you did not think rapid growth was important. yet, you question other things like why can they do this or that if its not needed.

In this case, they are all tied together. First neonates of the reptile world, are prey for many many other species, including insects. So in nature, it behoofs neonates to GROW THE HECK UP and do so as quickly as they can. Also, the point of rapid growth and why I mention it is, THEY CAN. Why can they if they if its not important?

Anyway, UV bulbs, are not needed, when a temperature range is provided and with dietary support, which lots of whole prey items.

You know mention, UV is not needed with monitors that feed or rodents, but is with insect feeders. Sir, we have raised many many many insect feeders just as successfully without UV bulbs. Including the exact same species Bob thinks requires them. As I mentioned, his animals came for me. Either directly or indirectly.

About why they adapted that ability, got me, I have no reason or way to know they did. Do you? Besides, the context is what occurs in our cages. Which is very meaningful. Its interesting why something may have evolved or not. But why is it important in this context.

For instance, it would be important if we could not find a way to overcome it. But we have, conquered that problem.

personally I am not concerned about How the taking away normal behavior effects these animals. Actual working problems, not simple external support. Cheers

chelusfimbriatus Feb 21, 2011 05:10 PM

Amazing discussion!! Makes sense offering the anima(s) choices in temps.

Frank, would you have a pic or two of the greek's housing? would love to see it. Thanks.

murrindindi Feb 21, 2011 05:14 PM

This is why asking questions and getting wonderful replies is so great!!

murrindindi Feb 21, 2011 05:10 PM

I just typed out a reply and it isn`t showing? Here I go again....
First, I have to say to Frank R.; you give terrific answers, thanks!
Yes, I DO understand they operate at a range of temps, unlike us mammals, and I also accept that it`s HEAT, not UVB that enables them to function efficiently!
The high basking temps just allow them to get to their "activity" levels much quicker, a distinct advantage whether in the wild, or in captivity, but I`d still like to know why they`ve evolved the capability to metabolise UVB into D3 if it isn`t needed, or of some use, surely it IS a bonus?

murrindindi Feb 21, 2011 05:12 PM

Now I submitted the same post twice!! Helllllppppp

FR Feb 21, 2011 08:47 PM

thats ok, i responded twice differently hahahahahahaha

FR Feb 21, 2011 07:30 PM

The high heat part of their range enbles more then calicum placement.

About why they evolved that, I don't know and its not my concern. My or our immediate concern is to allow them to achieve normal life events, or in this case, normal life function, in captivity. Not theorize over why something evolved a million years ago. Our problems are present and real time.

lwcamp Feb 21, 2011 05:26 PM

>> First you have been educated that UVB and UVA are
>> responsible for the conversion of vitamin D into D-3

A minor nit-pick, but UV-A is useless for this purpose. In humans (and presumably other animals with the same physiology), only a very narrow band of UV-B is used for this conversion, in the 295 nm to 300 nm range.

UV-A might have some behavioral effects in reptiles, since they can see part-way into the UV-A band (unlike mammals). However, it also causes cataracts, sunburns, and cancer, so if you do use it don't over-do it.

If someone started commercializing aluminum gallium nitride LEDs tuned to 297 nm wavelength, they could probably make a fortune in the pet industry. This would give exactly the right wavelength of UV-B for optimum conversion of pre-vitamin D to vitamin D while minimizing the harmful effects and also minimizing the electric power consumed.

Luke

Dobry Feb 24, 2011 12:38 PM

That pathway is a normal metabolic pathway in all vertebrates. MBD is also a big problem with large cats that people would just feed raw meat. No calcium in the diet.

But they can also get D3 from the sun.....so do YOU.... a bet you didn't know that...

Truth is almost all reptile medicine is derived from what is known of mammals, and not actually well tested. How many folks are spending big bucks on their sick reptile? And how much experience does that Vet have? Those are real good questions to consider.

Then consider those questions with prized horses and dogs....

I saw a moose the other day, holy crap they have a huge gigantic rack made up of Calcium. They replace that every year, eat only plants and live in deep dark woods up here in the arctic. How do they do that?
-----
"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Bob Feb 25, 2011 02:39 PM

Charlie, D-3 is big for any mammal and very important for reptiles. You know what some people fail to realize is that it only takes about 20 min per day of sun exposure to keep any lizard or varanid balanced with D-3. I guess because they [monitors] will dig in the ground to escape extreme heat some people think that a tub of dirt with a halogen bulb will suffice [and does with larger the species]. Maybe they fail to realize the feeding habits alone with the rock monitors provide enough time in the sun for them to maintain healthy levels of D-3. As far as the moose Im sure they get enough sun light to do the same even though it appears they favor the dark swamps. The real kicker here is knowing the natural range of the monitor lizards is so full of sun and uvb [all day everyday, overcast days included] that they of all living animals would naturally get more sun exposure then practically anything else would.
Bob

Posted by: Dobry at Thu Feb 24 12:38:00 2011 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by Dobry ] [ Log in to Follow this user on Connect ]

That pathway is a normal metabolic pathway in all vertebrates. MBD is also a big problem with large cats that people would just feed raw meat. No calcium in the diet.

But they can also get D3 from the sun.....so do YOU.... a bet you didn't know that...

Truth is almost all reptile medicine is derived from what is known of mammals, and not actually well tested. How many folks are spending big bucks on their sick reptile? And how much experience does that Vet have? Those are real good questions to consider.

Then consider those questions with prized horses and dogs....

I saw a moose the other day, holy crap they have a huge gigantic rack made up of Calcium. They replace that every year, eat only plants and live in deep dark woods up here in the arctic. How do they do that?
-----
"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Dobry Feb 25, 2011 03:04 PM

"You know what some people fail to realize is that it only takes about 20 min per day of sun exposure to keep any lizard or varanid balanced with D-3"

Do you have a reference for this statement? Or did you just make it up? Please show me the data or a citation, and I would be happy to discuss the methods.

Thanks
-----
"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

murrindindi Feb 27, 2011 09:42 AM

Many plants and vegs contain calcium, that`s one way mammals and reptiles that have a vegetarian diet get it. And 20 mins of natural, unfiltered sunlight is as good as approx 18 hrs under a UVB emmiting tube (the tubes are very weak in comparison to sunlight).
As far as UVB in lizards, here`s just one article on that subject:
Allen, M.E. et al. (1994) " Update on vitamin D and ultraviolet light on basking lizards". Proc.. American Assoc.. of Zoo Veterinarians, Pittsburgh. Pages 314 to 316.
There`s no "average" level of D3 in the different varanid species, and very little work has been done in that area (unfortunately), but UVB irradiation is of benefit (at least I believe it is, and according to the results of that study).

Dobry Feb 27, 2011 01:41 PM

Here is another

Zoo Biol. 2010 Nov-Dec;29(6):741-52.
Quantifying the vitamin D3 synthesizing potential of UVB lamps at specific distances over time.

Schmidt DA, Mulkerin D, Boehm DR, Ellersieck MR, Lu Z, Campbell M, Chen TC, Holick MF.

Lincoln Park Zoo, Chicago, Illinois, USA. schmidt@stlzoo.org
Abstract

The purpose of this study was to quantify the ultraviolet B (UVB) output and in vitro previtamin D(3) synthesis over time from various artificial light sources. Three incandescent lamps, T-Rex Active UVHeat 160 watt spot, T-Rex Active UVHeat 160 watt flood, and ZooMed PowerSun 160 watt flood, and two 1.2 m fluorescent lamps, Sylvania Blacklight 350 BL and ZooMed Reptisun 5.0, were studied. Total UVB irradiance and concentration of previtamin D synthesized using an in vitro ampoule model were quantified initially and at monthly intervals for 1 year. Incandescent lamps were measured at distances of 0.9 and 1.5 m while fluorescent lamps were measured at distances of 30.5 and 45.7 cm at the lamp's center, using both the radiometer and ampoules. Fluorescent lamp irradiance was also measured at the lamp's ends. Data were analyzed as a repeated measures split-plot in time using SAS with all mean differences determined using Least Squares Means. Incandescent lamp irradiance differences were seen at various distances. The UVHeat lamps had consistently higher previtamin D(3) production and irradiance readings compared with the PowerSun lamp. Reptisun 5.0 was consistently higher in UVB irradiance over Sylvania BL 350 at both 30.5 and 45.7 cm. However, there were no differences when comparing conversion of 7-dehydrocholesterol to previtamin D(3). Irradiance differences were detected between the centers and ends of the fluorescent lamps. Until UVB requirements for vitamin D(3) synthesis in animals are determined, it is impossible to state that one light is superior to another.
-----
"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

murrindindi Feb 27, 2011 03:43 PM

They tested both wild and captive V. komodoensis in the study I cited, and compared the D3 levels in the two. Although as we both stated, the figures for "normal" D3 levels in most other varanids are not known, but they are expected to vary between species, as I said.
I think the "Megaray" lamps may be more efficient than many others in the emmission of UVB, which is close to natural sunlight at the recommended distances in these lamps. (Thanks for the other studies details).

FR Feb 28, 2011 08:33 PM

Again I ask, what were the animals doing or what did they do?

to me this serum level of d-3 is meaningless without intent. That is, a fast growing neonate has totally differnet requirements then a non growing adult. Or a gravid female compared to a non reproductive female.

Is our understanding so low, that we only consider different species?????? I would doubt species would be different, but I would expect, huge difference for the reasons I mentioned above.

Or even, winter, spring, summer, and fall serum levels would vary.

So what the heck were these animals they tested doing? if they were sitting there, who cares what it was.

Where they sick animals or healthy? or who cares if a captives is different as long as it completes its bio tasks in good health??????

To me, these tests are dumb and naive, and rather useless. hows them apples. They are. I would love to see something meant for us. Like, what are the D-3 levels in a healhty female thats laid many successful clutches. Then compare that to what the levels are in a individual captive with CDD. That type of data would be of use, but to say, its more after we used UV bulbs, is dumb. It is.

For instance, I had a female that laid over 80 clutches, over many years, if that test said, oh man, she is low on D-3. Well you could expect for me to laugh at you. As I will say, who cares, she outperformed any varanid I ever heard of, captive or otherwise. So her levels should be the standard.

Which is my goofy way of saying, is there a set standard for what these levels should be??????? my bet is no, and for reasons of lack of interest. Cheers

FR Feb 28, 2011 02:44 PM

This is what I find odd. What were the results of the study?????????? please tell me that. Exactly what??????

You see, I ask you to look at the papers and put them in context, but you fail.

Did the study also use high heat choices. You know, the exact comparsion in our context?

Did the results express generations of varanids?????? or even one individual varanid that went from failure mode, to healthy and reproductive?????? did that occur.

If not, then its not in context to this forum. The keeping and breeding of varanids in captivity. So the results must be gauged in this context. If not, its just a bunch of words.

Your happy because a serum level increased, hmmmmm what did that do in application to the animal? How did the animal actually benefit in THAT PAPER? REAL life benefit, not on paper. This is the problem with these papers, they do not attempt to gain REAL LIFE benefit.

Let me give you an example, once many years ago, I get doubts, like anyone else. Well, I have three young albigs being raised indoors, come down with weak bones. Oh my the world is going to end as we know it. So whats a boy to do, It was summer so I put the little beggers outdoors in the highest UV place in the world, you know, the best bulb. Guess what, it did not cure them. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm high pitched squeaky, WHAT!!!!! it did not cure them.

Well, I did cure them, but indoors. It was not D-3 that was the problem. I had them growing at a rate faster then the amounts of calicum their food supplied. So whats a boy to do? feed them more, and its all better. dang, it sounds simple, and it is. Cheers

FR Feb 28, 2011 01:48 PM

Bob your about as boneheaded as it gets, I have generations upon generations of monitors that do not use Uv bulbs, and yours are a product of that. This is what you do not realize. Sir, generations upon generations, of many species large and small, IN FACT, never were exposed to a UV bulb or the sun. And performed superior to your stated results, that is, grew faster and produced more, and so far outlived yours, but you have time to exceed that.

The way you keep your monitors, UV bulbs may be required, but its because of something YOU ARE DOING, its not the monitors. Many here, and I have without questioned shown that.

We have produced more generations of any single one of your species, then you have with all of them. Without ever using a UV buld or the sun. Simply put, what are you doing to cause such a need. Sir that is the question.

I understand you cannot figure that out, so you point and yell and complain and whine. Good on you. Thats exactly what and how whiners come about.

Why don't you do something novel and try something different. How about asking for exactly how, so you will understand. Instead, all you do is listen to people gap about their own limitations and try to take others down to your level. I am truely sorry about that.

Bob Feb 22, 2011 06:23 AM

Those are the types of varanids [you posted] that would be fine without UVB based on a diet of fully developed rodents, Its the odatria that does not eat fully developed rodents as a staple and puts out up to 10 clutches of eggs per year that is going to show signs of calcium depletion. Heck a male pilbara no need for UVB but the female if bred it is needed or from what I have seen you are asking for problems.
Bob

FR Feb 22, 2011 08:42 AM

Sorry Bob, your asking for problems, thats the point. Your husdandry does not support your animals efforts. AS in, you create your own problems.

Again you base your findings solely on your set conditions. Which are very limited.

I only wish you would actually think about this. Under your temperature regime, your animals are only able to assimilate X amount of energy. So you see their limitations quickly.

What if your able to increase the amount of food(energy) they can assimilate by two, three or more times. That would simply mean, they could go two or three times more then what you see now. Its that simple. More usable energy, greater ability for growth and reproduction.

That you limit your animals is all about you, not the animals.

Again, By allowing them to pick high temps, they increase the amount of food and increase the energy assimalated. That is what I call support. You as a keeper must support their efforts.

If I with hold energy from my monitors, I get exactly what you get. Limited progress or some manner of failure.

Your problem is, you base your opinions on your very limited support. Bob, its a balance. If you increase the amount of heat available, you must also increase the amount of food offered. The more food taken the more they use heat, the more heat thats available, the more food they take. That allows more progress. Of course, a temperature range means, they can stop whenever they want and conserve and live a long life. AGain, its their choice.

This is why I call UV bulbs, bandaids, your attempting to fix your problem with a lite bulb or suppliments, when all you need is more food. Insects or rodents. They need to assimulate more food to support more progress.

You do have a point, a diet of solely crickets, may not be sufficent unless the crickets are well fed. or you can dust them. Some store bought crickets are depleted by the time you recieve them. Its not actually the crickets fault, its the condition they are in when you feed them off. Some people call it gut loading, I simply call it healthy crickets. they need to eat, so feed them. Why is it called gut loading. We all gut load everytime we eat.

But there is no question, even the smallest odatria, consumes pinks and fuzzie parts and crickets, roaches, moths, and more. have fun with it. No one is restricted to feeding only one type food item.

A base diet of crickets and rodents, works well for as many clutches as the monitors produce. This diet works, but that does not mean, you cannot add to it.

All without Uv bulbs. or you can go your route and not allow the monitors to perform at their perferred temps and have a limited intake of energy(food) and have to do all manner of bandaids(uv bulbs, suppliments, visits to the vet) to keep a balance.

You really should admit, you have a problem with calicum deficency, even with uv bulbs. I know for sure Joe Lewis did.

I keep telling you, we use heat, way more heat then you can imagine. Then I tell you, where pilbaras come from, its far hotter then here. Far hotter. I do not believe you have a grasp on that. And I do not blame you. If you came here in the summer and looked at similar sized lizards like collards and leopard lizards, they are living in heat that makes your captives seem like they are living in an ice box. Again, where the odatria in question come from, its hotter then here, and they are out and active. hotter means, they can consume more, support more, grow faster, produce more, etc.

So when I mention the upper range we recieve, you freak out, yes, you do, because your animals are not allowed to reach their potential. They are not allowed to use a normal natural temperature range. You keep them on your little balancing act of limited success and failure. Bob, thats all about you.

The point is, you get mad at me and call me out for recieving better results that you. Well sir, get off your arse and do something about it. Don't whine at me like a big baby. Cheers

Bob Feb 25, 2011 03:05 PM

No, fr I am not whining about anything more then failures by people who buy young glauerti,pilbaras and try to replicate what they read on the forum, keeping them in groups at a young age is not a good idea [IME] and to even belive for one moment that three hatchlings housed together will promote or force a 1.2 outcome is a good sales gimmick for the seller but nothing more [true insanity?]. The uvb thing is different with the various species, the rock monitors seem to be more prone for potential calcium issues without it. I seen this at a place that was huge and very hot years ago. I seen many females that lost the use of their motor skills in the front digets due to D-3 calcium issues. Gilleni on the other hand seem to be a lot more foregiving. I guess narrowing husbandry guidlines on an individual species level would solve any of these issues for many. And failure? I still have the same groups I started with back in 2000 so its not happening here. And clutches I get are up to 8 on pilbaras and 10 with glauerti. Not the norm but it happens here. And I guess what stuns me about you is you talk about choices leading to success and yet uvb is a big one to remove when it dont have to be that way. Anyone who is to cheap to buy a decent uvb bulb for addition support if they plan on breeding female rock monitors probably shouldnt have them to begin with.
Bob

FR Feb 28, 2011 02:20 PM

Bob, your getting close, its stuns you, so what, I report what I do, what I recieve by doing it. I do not sell UV bulbs, nor do I sell regular litebulbs, I have no benefit to be gained from recomending or not recomending a type of bulb.

What you miss is, UV bulbs were what was recomented before I came along. It has not effected the success or failure other others. Has it???? have you spawned keepers that are highly successful?

Which is not the point either. I report what I do. Thats it, why would I not? I do not use UV bulbs.

I learned way before I kept varanids that its not only not needed, But worse, people think it will eliminate problems, just because they have a UV bulb. Which is SOOOOOOO not true. People(keepers) fail, using UV bulbs and without UV bulbs. That is so totally true its rediculis.

The actual truth is, its about work, most are not willing to put in the work. Most, want varanids to be corn snakes. Something you can feed once a week and all is well. Sorry monitors are not for them.

Lets take this a different direction. Several of the BIG reptile breeders, Ok, whats a big breeder, lets say, those that produce over 50,000 units a year. Several of those folks took an interest in breeding monitors for the pet trade. Once instructed on how, they did what they do with other reptiles, took it to a commerical level, they apply techniques to allow the mass production of monitors. So far, they reported back, varanids are fun, but too much work, more importantly, to much work on an individual basis.

For instance, in your case, your successful with the species that can be FORCED to nest in a box. The species that resist that, you do not keep long. That you do not say, these things is your problem. You see, we all can do what we want. I knew one great reptile breeder that died a while back. He could actually bred anything he wanted, but he would say, if they do not hibernate, I will not keep them. he did that because, of his own wishes. He wanted time off. he would tell me, maybe I try lacies, they hibernate in the south.

Which brings up another point. You somehow make it about right and wrong. Its not. This stuff is what it is. We both are doing well, yet you cry like a little baby, and yes, you saying and rationalizing IS WITHOUT QUESTION crying like a little baby.

Grow the heck up BOB. If you were concerned about this in a real way, you would discuss how both work. Truely the approach I take has a system, that is, to do one you have to have another part as well. For instance, to have really hot basking areas, like they do in nature, you cannot have an open type cage, not inside. The reason is simple, the more air you heat, the faster the cage drys out. so we close the cage, use less electricity and heat a small area very hot with the bulb being very close. One will not work without the other.

For instance, you must use a large wattage bulb and have it at distance from the surface, this heats large amounts of air and causes lots of air movement. This drys out the lizards, and you blame retes boards. Cover the cage, lower the lites, and retes boards work great. It really does not take a lot of brain power to figure that out.

Why I say, get out and look at the animals. Monitors in nature behavior in a water conservation mode, at all times. Even desert monitors only expose themselves to humid air, early mourning late evening, etc, after rains like crazy, etc etc. They do this to conserve moisture. Which is EXACTLY NATURAL. which is what our method duplicates. Putting lids on cages in order to replicate humid air. Not wet substrate.

What that in mind, you do not show your cages, or what you do. So all we have is guesses at how you fail. We all fail sir, you just hide yours.

You just remind me of a dry bearing, you squeak like crazy, and soon you will fail. Simple fix, oil the bearings. Cheers hahahahahahahahahahahaha that one is really dumb on my part, but I like it.ahahhahahahahahahahaha

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