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Hi, is there any visual difference between a hypo and coastal cal king? From what i read, hypos are lighter as hatchlings whereas coastals are dark, but lighten up to a brown color when they mature. As adults, are both the same shade of brown and yellow or is one lighter than the other? Also, is there a visual difference between a hypo desert phase and hypo coastal phase? I haven't seen too many coastals and hypos for sale. Are they rare?

>>Hi, is there any visual difference between a hypo and coastal cal king? From what i read, hypos are lighter as hatchlings whereas coastals are dark, but lighten up to a brown color when they mature. As adults, are both the same shade of brown and yellow or is one lighter than the other? Also, is there a visual difference between a hypo desert phase and hypo coastal phase? I haven't seen too many coastals and hypos for sale. Are they rare?

Coastal Calkings hatch out looking black and white...or black and yellow. The black turns brown within a few sheds....and can possibly be seen in natural sunlight right out of the egg........I have yet to see a brown hatchling called a hypo though. But if there are any it would be interesting to see one.

I guess the big picture question is this:
Is brown a reduced (Hypo) color of black? And if a Calking is brown is it a hypo?......
I say no if brown is within the normal color range of the species.....IE: Coastal Calking
I think a true Hypomelanistic Calking would have the black reduced to a grayish color....not brown.

Kerby should be able to tell us his thoughts.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Thanks for the explanation.

I also found this old thread on ks about this topic. Fascinating stuff.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1315316,1315705

I think the problem here is the definition of "hypo".

A hypo could be any light varient of a normal phase. For instance, if you get a clucth of any snake species the neonates will range from dark to light and everthing inbetween. The light ones can be refferred to as hypo. This is common with Field collection guys and not herpetoculturists.

A hypo in herpetoculturists terms is a reccessive trait (like albino or axanthic) ...the terms melanistic and hypo are also refferred to as recessive traits. Whereas a melanistic or hypo to a firld collection guy can be a dark or lighter colored individual. Nothing to do with genetics. just phonotypes, or line traits.

EX:
A field guy ctahces a lighter than normal calif king as says; hmmmm, it is a hypo. That is because the term hypo in its truest sense is any light colored snakes. Gentics has nothing to do with it. ..heck, even snake from an entire geographical area that are lighter then other areas could be referred to as hypos from a field guy. But in herpetoculture a hypo is a recessive trait which breeds true.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I think the problem here is the definition of "hypo".

EX:
A field guy ctahces a lighter than normal calif king as says; hmmmm, it is a hypo. That is because the term hypo in its truest sense is any light colored snakes. Gentics has nothing to do with it. ..heck, even snake from an entire geographical area that are lighter then other areas could be referred to as hypos from a field guy. But in herpetoculture a hypo is a recessive trait which breeds true.

I agree with you on that but I wouldn't say most fieldherpers are ignorant to what qualifies a snake as being a hypo, just some. Normally its the newer young guys that make this mistake.
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Thanks for the clarification.

Hubbs doesn't count. For his age he should know, but I guess some just never learn. hahahaha
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Hubbs doesn't count. For his age he should know, but I guess some just never learn. hahahaha

Ah, but Brian Hubbs is the perfect example of an experinced field herper. He will argue to the death that any light colored snake is a hypo. And in technical terms he is correct. Practical terms incorrect.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Yeah, Hubbs is definitely a very experienced and dedicated field herper, but forget about him grasping how recessive genetics works. I was chatting with him on the phone a couple years ago about genetics for whatever reason, and after I was done.....he was like.......HUHH??...

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

I guess the big picture question is this:
Is brown a reduced (Hypo) color of black? And if a Calking is brown is it a hypo?......
I say no if brown is within the normal color range of the species.....IE: Coastal Calking
I think a true Hypomelanistic Calking would have the black reduced to a grayish color....not brown.

Brown is the reduced color of very dark brown. There's variation of brown in every Cal king population with some having more variation than others. Coastal San Diego County has more variation in brown than any other area. Out of all the desert phase kings I've found, I've never seen one that was truly black. Some do look black in pictures and even at night under very bright lights, but when you put them in the sun, the dark brown shows up on the lower sides and the ventral's. The top part of the snake doesn't show up dark brown and does look black, but it must be an extremely dark brown. Juveniles don't count because they are always much darker. I've never seen an adult Cal king under the sun that didn't show up a very dark brown near the ventral's, but if there are some that look black, I'm pretty sure its just an extremely dark shade of brown. I've never seen a hypo Cal king that was gray and I've been around the block a few times. lol
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>>I guess the big picture question is this:
>>Is brown a reduced (Hypo) color of black? And if a Calking is brown is it a hypo?......
>>I say no if brown is within the normal color range of the species.....IE: Coastal Calking
>>I think a true Hypomelanistic Calking would have the black reduced to a grayish color....not brown.
>>
>>Brown is the reduced color of very dark brown. There's variation of brown in every Cal king population with some having more variation than others. Coastal San Diego County has more variation in brown than any other area. Out of all the desert phase kings I've found, I've never seen one that was truly black. Some do look black in pictures and even at night under very bright lights, but when you put them in the sun, the dark brown shows up on the lower sides and the ventral's. The top part of the snake doesn't show up dark brown and does look black, but it must be an extremely dark brown. Juveniles don't count because they are always much darker. I've never seen an adult Cal king under the sun that didn't show up a very dark brown near the ventral's, but if there are some that look black, I'm pretty sure its just an extremely dark shade of brown. I've never seen a hypo Cal king that was gray and I've been around the block a few times. lol
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This one was a real dark almost black, I believe desert phase, but in the sun she had a brown tint to her.
Bob B

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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

Yeah, desert phase all the way, and a nice one too.
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Hi, is there any visual difference between a hypo and coastal cal king? From what i read, hypos are lighter as hatchlings whereas coastals are dark, but lighten up to a brown color when they mature. As adults, are both the same shade of brown and yellow or is one lighter than the other?

Most hypos you see, if not all, are hypo coastal Cal kings, so yes there is a noticeable difference in color between the two.

Also, is there a visual difference between a hypo desert phase and hypo coastal phase? I haven't seen too many coastals and hypos for sale. Are they rare?
Yes, a hypo desert has white instead of yellow and the shade of brown is a bit darker than a hypo coastal. I will not be 100% sure of this until I raise a pair of hets I produced last year from a king I found in the desert that I believe is a hypo.

I haven't seen too many coastals and hypos for sale. Are they rare?

You must not be looking in the right place because they are common, unless "blue eyed blonds" and "lavenders" are considered T positive albinos. Not sure about that though.
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That will be VERY interesting to see the results of what that animal and/or it's offspring produces in the future Ross!

I would also bet that animal is EXTREMELY likely to be a true recessive hypo trait, as it goes WAAAY beyond just a lighter more typical brown. But like you already know, only certain test breedings will tell the tail there.

Good luck with proving it to be a true simple recessive trait in the future bro, but regardless of how that pans-out later on....that animal is just absolutely OUTSTANDING!!!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

geeez!!...duuhh!!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Thanks, Doug. I have my fingers crossed. Here's the "hets" I kept.

And the hypo as a juvenile.

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Nice, they're all beautiful.

Gorgeous Ross.........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

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Those are nice looking hopefully "het" babies there Ross!. Those very dark babies are actually a VERY GOOD sign to me in regards to that one actually being a genuine recessive hypo anyway. See, if they were more of an intermediate shade, it would tend to implicate that it could very well be more of a normal natural brown variant.

Now when those very dark(almost jet black)hopeful "het" babies throw a 25 percent ratio of very light phenotypes when bred together just like the original light parent, or a 50% black(super dark brown), and 50% ultra-light brown(i.e.hypo) when back-bred to the original light parent, you can then be pretty damn certain it is indeed a hypo. What you don't really want to see are intermediates, and so far you are looking great man!..

I am assuming you bred it to a very dark-ringed animal, correct?

Yes, I think you are onto something cool there my friend......good luck with those guys!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Thanks, Doug! I was thinking the same about them not looking intermediate. That was the main thing I was worried about right before they hatched. I was already pretty sure it was hypo, but you just never know. The male I bred her to was not the darkest of kings found out there, more of a dark chocolate brown. I felt by breeding him to her, it would give even more of an opportunity to get some brown looking babies if the hypo was due to variation, but they came out very dark like they were supposed to. Here's the male I bred to her.

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np
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

,,
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Yeah, that male is plenty dark enough to see that the babies at least don't look intermediate between the two parents. I have a feeling you are going to be a happy camper with what you get later on........CONGRATS!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Thanks! I will definitely share my results, good or bad. lol
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did you collect those near Mohave/ Lancaster area?
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www.Bluerosy.com

No, over by Whitewater.
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Ross,

What is your opinion on my snake here? It appears to be hypo to me.

The snake was passed thru two people before I received it. First person received the snake at a show, and was told it was a Blue Eyed Blonde.

After I received the snake and started reviewing the pics of BEBs on Vivid Reptiles' site, I was convinced it was NOT a BEB. At that particular time though, it looked exactly like the het-BEBs that Tim G. was selling on his site. Is it possible that the het-BEBs are another form of hypo?

This snake has no yellow and has never had yellow whatsover, but a cream to white color between what is now brownish-purplish bands. He actually looked just like your hypo when it was juvenile, from your pic on your other post, but has had the brown bands turn into the purplish looking bands they are now, as they have turned lighter over the years.

What are your thoughts?

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Genesis 1:1

I think a BEB is a T Positive Albino, but I never got my pair to reproduce before they passed........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Going by the looks and what you said about the purplish look to the bands, I'd say it could be a Gerold Merker hypo. The originals were found in El Dorado Co. somewhere in Northern CA. Thats a very nice looking king.
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Thanks for your compliment and input!
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Genesis 1:1

There are numerous different hypo genes in cal kings that are not compatible and are recessive.

Unless you did the breeding pairings yourself, sometimes you cannot tell by looks alone.

So what are these by just looks alone? LOL

Kerby...

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They are all absolutely gorgeous!
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Genesis 1:1

Thanks for chiming in Kerby....
I knew you wouldn't let us down.....
I think I even see some with a grayish coloration......

I used to think that the Blue Eyed Blondes were a type of hypomelanism.....but it may be T positive albino........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Nuff said.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Nice kings, Kerby. This banded one looks hypo.

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