Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just got off the phone with Andrew Wyatt from USARK and we have good news to report about the bill in PA to ban sale and purchase of hots and gators. After Senator Alloway floated the bill to seek cosponsors (it was never formally introduced) we asked everyone to contact his office to stop it. There were some great ideas being discussed on this forum about better ways to regulate impulse sales of pet alligators in PA without involving venomous snakes in the same law. Although everyone on the forum may not agree on all the specifics, we all agreed that Senator Alloway's bill was poorly planned and we worked together to raise opposition and become part of the process with his office.

It appears all of our phone calls, emails, and comments have made an impact. Senator Alloway has decided to drop the entire bill. Personally I think we still need some form of regulation for A. mississippiensis in Pennsylvania, but I'd much rather have NO LAW than a BAD LAW. So I am very pleased to let you know that all of your effort to contact Alloway's office has paid off. Thanks to everyone who made their voices known and took time to be part of the process.

At this point I have lost faith that our state legislators can be trusted to regulate alligators reasonably or responsibly. But I still hate to see so many alligators sold into the pet trade that will never be taken care of for more than a few years. There were a lot of great ideas in the midst of this discussion to improve the alligator situation in PA. I encourage everyone who mentioned these ideas or agreed with these ideas to continue working toward them. Remember, every time an abandoned alligator makes the local news it is not just bad for the animal, but it's bad for all reptile owners, too.

Good work everyone on stopping a bad bill.
-----
Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
www.forgottenfriend.org

I agree 100% it would be our best interest to our freedoms are Pennsylvania reptile keepers that if we wish to keep enjoying those freedoms that those selling alligators or venomous snakes change the way they are doing things some...

I know this will probably fall on deaf ears, but to the show promoters, like East Coast and Hamburg, that "No alligators under 4 foot long" sounds like a good way to stop people from purchasing impulse buy babies that are going to blow it for our hobby. It would be a really good idea for those selling venomous snakes to check drivers licenses too for age & to see if the buyer comes from a legal state.

Hopefully, the lesson learned here is to work within the community to effect change, and not get the government involved until it is an absolute last resort (which it almost never is). How can we argue that we are over regulated (as US citizens, not specifically reptile enthusists), while at the same time inviting more regulation? However well intended, please, let's not do this again? Let's absolutely continue to work to improve the situation amongst oursevles, but please, let's not invite more government participation.

Thanks,

Mark

Mark,
I'd like to agree with you completely, except the reptile community has failed on the alligator issue as much as the state legislature. No one has affected any constructive change on this issue in PA, ever. And as much as I'm a proponent of small government, I recognize the need for some government. Whether it's exotic birds and mammals or dogs or horses or motorcycles or tobacco, some government is involved. And until the reptile community decides to handle its own house keeping, we are just a house of cards, inviting HSUS or other folks who don't share our interests to bring us crashing down.

It is not my desire to see our community over-regulated, and I prefer NO law over a BAD law. But the fact remains that the reptile community has done nothing to positively affect this issue. I hope that can change.

>>Hopefully, the lesson learned here is to work within the community to effect change, and not get the government involved until it is an absolute last resort (which it almost never is). How can we argue that we are over regulated (as US citizens, not specifically reptile enthusists), while at the same time inviting more regulation? However well intended, please, let's not do this again? Let's absolutely continue to work to improve the situation amongst oursevles, but please, let's not invite more government participation.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Mark
Link

-----
Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
www.forgottenfriend.org

I hope so, too. This is the first I have heard of alligators in PA being a problem, but then I don't live in PA, nor own an alligator, so I guess I wasn't on the call list.

Mark

in the State of PA, mostly if you are a rescue or an Alligator.

I'll be the first to agree with Jesse that the bad press from all these released and abandoned alligator calls does not do anything positive for our hobby OR for the responsible crocodilian keepers out there.

Here in PA, American Alligators are not restricted in any way on a state level (some towns, communities and counties prohibit them), and can be purchased and sold cheaply, and tend to run around 50.00 to 100.00 each for hatchlings at various shows (Hamburg & the East Coast Herp Expo for example) Some petshops carry them too, and often purchase them at these expos. Some petshop vendors provide very faulty information regarding what keeping an alligator will be like, and how to tend to them. (The old, no it won't outgrow its enclosure" line is a common one that is still unfortunately used.)

Like any other state that does not have alligators as a banned species, many people (sometimes out of state folks from states where gators are prohibited) do buy alligators (and tons of other species) without thinking on the long term what they are going to do with them, and anyone familiar with the species knows that a cute 10" hatchling doesn't take all that long to turn into a 3' to 5' animal, that depending on its personality can be VERY intimidating, and dangerous.

That has led some alligators to either escape captivity or be released into Pennsylvania waterways. While they pose no "real threat" to the PA ecosystems, or usually to people - unless large ones were released, because a nice cold PA winter makes them gator-icicles, when this does happen though, it often creates a huge media frenzy over "the dangerous beast" lurking in the water - even if its a 26" chirping baby who could at best eat a small rat. (I am thinking of the infamous "Italian Lake Gator"

I am sure rescues get flooded with Alligators. I've been offered many myself and have turned them down. I took one in many years ago, and still have her.

As I said below, I was against the banning of the sale, (I was always pro micro-chipping, at least for gators) BUT the "no sales of American Alligators under 4'" seems like an even better suggestion, and one that would be VERY easy to implement at our PA reptile shows.

All the show promoters would have to do is say its a rule at their shows, and it shows that WE as a community are doing something to attempt to prevent "all those unwanted gators".

In addition, and possibly even more important then the 4' suggestion would be US making it a rule at our shows that All crocodilians and venomous snakes may only be purchased by adults from legal states, or have a copy of an appropriate permit from a state where the animals are restricted.

That requires almost NO work from the vendors (they have to check an ID before a sale) and the people buying crocodilians & venomous snakes must provide a valid ID, so that the seller can see that they are from a legal state (or has a valid permit from a state). I'd think ANY responsible vendor out there with hots or crocodilans would applaud the measure (and might already do it anyway)

The ONLY people who I could see fighting such a reasonable, easy to implement measure and "restriction" would be those who are only after the quick buck to be made from the impulse buys.

Eat the unwanted alligators, they are quite tasty. Alligator tail is a pricey delicacy here in Fl.
Here in Fl. we have lots of gators running around and while some people worry about it most of us worry about other more important issues like....
The economy....The "official" unemployment rate here is 14% the ACTUAL employment rate is much higher because out-of-work self-employed people don't count in government statistics. Here's another one for you 1 in 4 people in Osceola county receive food stamp assistance. This is the county just south of Orlando where most of the disney property is located. It's too bad Fl. won't let you ship them there I'm sure plenty of people there would have no problem killing and eating your unwanted gators if you don't have the heart to do it yourself.

Crime...Some organization just released a list of the 25 most dangerous cities and Orlando was tied at number 3 with another city. detroit was number 4.
While I am sure our murder rate is much lower in Orlando than Detroit I can tell you the crime problem is much worse here now then when I moved here 16 years ago.
There are many other problems here in a state full of alligators to worry about and I mention this because I moved here from upstate New York and I am well aware of how much worse both crime and the economy are in the Northeast than here in Fl. and alligators on the bottom of the list of concerns for everyday people trying to survive in these tough times. Perhaps you should be more persistent about reminding your politicians in Pa. of that and how if they are more worried about pet alligators than real issues that actually affect people they can be replaced quite easily. I have adopted this technique here in fl.. BTW alligator does not taste like chicken it is fantastic.

It's like I always say, if God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat.

Seriously though you have to expect people with special interests to work on special interests. And rescues eating their animals would be a conflict of interests on so many levels, regardless of how we feel about the ethics of it personally.

"Eat the unwanted alligators, they are quite tasty. Alligator tail is a pricey delicacy here in Fl."
-----
Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
www.forgottenfriend.org

I am a vegetarian (don't judge, its MY choice) but I have worked at places that serve alligator, wouldn't a skinny unhealthy gator be no good to eat? it would be like making a steak out of a skinny old cow!
I have been in reptile rescue for over a decade now, and usually when an animal needs to be rescued they are in crap shape, and if I took in an animal, even if I ate meat, I would not be able to spend all the time, passion, and $ to get an animal fat and healthy, just to turn around and eat it!
-----
hanging out under heat lights burns up my brain cells!!

Thank you for the information. It sounds like there are good ideas out there that could be successful. Is the problem that there isn't anyone volunteering to spearhead a campaign to make it happen? That's usually the biggest hurdle, finding someone willing and capable to stand up and lead such a charge. To me, this sounds like a great opportunity for a local, state or regional chapter of an organization like USARK, if such things existed. Maybe in the absence of such an organization, the herp societies could take the lead? It would be a challenge, but I think with the right leadership, certainly do-able.

Good luck with the effort. I hope it doesn't die with the sharing of good ideas due to lack of a leader coming forth.

Mark

Ravin I like all of your thoughts on this discussion. Do you think we should ask Marty and Denise (who run the Eastern PA and Hamburg shows) if they would entertain such a rule at their shows? I have worked with both of them before and they seem friendly and reasonable. In fact they've both provided nonprofit tables to herp clubs or rescues in the past. Although I've never asked them about limiting sales at their show. However gators are not bred in PA and account for a very small portion of sales at shows. Maybe the show organizers would be willing to do something to improve the industry image. Anyone think we should approach them or interested in doing so? I would much rather see the reptile community deal with gators internally than legislatively, if it could realistically happen.
-----
Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
www.forgottenfriend.org

I will do all I can to contact them and suggest these things. I have primate messaged both of them on facebook with the questions, and if I see them in person I will raise the same concerns and suggestions.

I am aware its too late to implement such things before the show this weekend, but I'd love if they'd think about doing so in the next few months. I know many would applaud the expos for "stepping it up a level" FOR herpticulture & the the freedoms of the people who just want to keep enjoying their animals and doing the right by them.

"Let's absolutely continue to work to improve the situation amongst oursevles,..."
Couldn't agree more. I've been preaching that sermon for years.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer