Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Wouldnt it be a safe assumption that there really are no pure forms? Through intergrades spreading out, it seems quite possible that genes could be carried to animals that would never have contact with one of the original intergrading or hybrid species. Then, if the resulting offspring were more adept to survive due to "hybrid vigor", wouldnt it also be possible that through natural selection the intergrades and hybrids would overtake the original animals? I find it interesting that miami corns and durango mtn kings from mexico look so much alike. I am not so sure that people are keeping "pure" animals so much as keeping what is in that area at the time. Snakes have been around a long time....seems like there could have been some genetic mixing in several thousands of years. I could be WAY off here but, seems like a plausible idea worth asking about.
Mike

No
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David Hiscock.

n/p

n/p

as for captive snakes, you could assume that all arent pure but you know what happens when you "ass-u-me"?
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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." -Charles Darwin

"I am turned into a sort of machine for observing facts & grinding out conclusions"-Charles Darwin

"Man with all his noble qualities, with sympathy which feels for the most debased, with benevolence which extends not only to other men but to the humblest living creature, with his god-like intellect which has penetrated into the movements and constitution of the solar system- with all these exalted powers- Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin." -Charles Darwin

"A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone" -Charles Darwin

"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an improved theory, is it then a science or faith?" -Charles Darwin

ok, so what you are saying is that intergrades or hybrids found in nature are pure but ones in captivity are not? hybridization and itergradation(is that even a word?) does happen in nature. Just curious as to the differernce there.
Mike

I beleive there has been a lot of species to species hybrid breedings in nature. I also beleive that a lot of the snakes re mixed in this fashion and that the stronger ones with more vigor take on new forms.
If you look at the north ameican continent and then look at all the milk and kings you will se a remarkebale similarities where you have the divide.

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." -Charles Darwin

"I am turned into a sort of machine for observing facts & grinding out conclusions"-Charles Darwin

"Man with all his noble qualities, with sympathy which feels for the most debased, with benevolence which extends not only to other men but to the humblest living creature, with his god-like intellect which has penetrated into the movements and constitution of the solar system- with all these exalted powers- Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin." -Charles Darwin

"A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone" -Charles Darwin

"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an improved theory, is it then a science or faith?" -Charles Darwin

in Florida. Quite common form what I understand. This is a species to a differnt species breeding so they are definte hybrids. Probably since these 50%/50% cornxyellow have been documented since 1930's there probably aren't any more pure corns in the wild. (heck maybe there never was. we don't know) Unless you can explain what happens to all these cornxyellows? I am sure they breed to the corns and a 25% or 12.5% yellow you might not be able to detect in a corn with 75% or 87.5% any longer.

hell if you can prove you caught the snake and that its a hybrid ill pay ya $250.
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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." -Charles Darwin

"I am turned into a sort of machine for observing facts & grinding out conclusions"-Charles Darwin

"Man with all his noble qualities, with sympathy which feels for the most debased, with benevolence which extends not only to other men but to the humblest living creature, with his god-like intellect which has penetrated into the movements and constitution of the solar system- with all these exalted powers- Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin." -Charles Darwin

"A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone" -Charles Darwin

"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an improved theory, is it then a science or faith?" -Charles Darwin

I never said that "I" caught the snake. But it is well documented and well known fact.
What is it you are after or trying to prove with this line of questioning? Are you angry for some reason? Maybe I am not reading you correctly??????????/

"Well documented" doesnt mean diddly squat to me. Religion is well documented, and I don't believe in god. I want living breathing proof that there are two different species hybridizing in the wild, not so that you can prove your point, but so I can prove mine as well.
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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." -Charles Darwin

"I am turned into a sort of machine for observing facts & grinding out conclusions"-Charles Darwin

"Man with all his noble qualities, with sympathy which feels for the most debased, with benevolence which extends not only to other men but to the humblest living creature, with his god-like intellect which has penetrated into the movements and constitution of the solar system- with all these exalted powers- Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin." -Charles Darwin

"A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone" -Charles Darwin

"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an improved theory, is it then a science or faith?" -Charles Darwin

I will call a friend who has some documentation. I will get back to you.

...... since you do not beleive in god (G-d) then I must ask if you want to recreate the wildcaught yellowXcorn breeding then the only way is to go out and get it yourself. But even then you would say the snake was an escaped hybrid that man bred.
If you reject the testament of the apostles that were executed because they would not recant of what they saw, then why should I believe you would accept any documentation?
If you do not beleive in a intelligent designer (G-d) then it SHOULD be easier for you to believe two species can breed. I mean if it all just happened... One day there was nothing and then one day nothing decided to become something.

I have a hard time believing you would give me $250 even if I took you into the woods and found a copulating cornXyellow ratsnake and showed it to you.

Sounds like excuses because you have no proof.
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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." -Charles Darwin

"I am turned into a sort of machine for observing facts & grinding out conclusions"-Charles Darwin

"Man with all his noble qualities, with sympathy which feels for the most debased, with benevolence which extends not only to other men but to the humblest living creature, with his god-like intellect which has penetrated into the movements and constitution of the solar system- with all these exalted powers- Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin." -Charles Darwin

"A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone" -Charles Darwin

"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an improved theory, is it then a science or faith?" -Charles Darwin

Nope I have it. Just want the $250/

Read my post " I dont want the documents I want the snake"
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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." -Charles Darwin

"I am turned into a sort of machine for observing facts & grinding out conclusions"-Charles Darwin

"Man with all his noble qualities, with sympathy which feels for the most debased, with benevolence which extends not only to other men but to the humblest living creature, with his god-like intellect which has penetrated into the movements and constitution of the solar system- with all these exalted powers- Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin." -Charles Darwin

"A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone" -Charles Darwin

"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an improved theory, is it then a science or faith?" -Charles Darwin

Then that'll be $250. plus $19.99

seriously do you want a hybrid snake or do you want proof they bred in the the wild? There is a whole lotta documentation I can throw your way for $250. Otherwise maybe you have a better chance of getting Jesus to come down and and pay the price of death for you all over again than to witness the wild breeding of this hybrid.

you're not getting the point, you can't prove to me you caught the snake or that it's a hybrid.
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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." -Charles Darwin

"I am turned into a sort of machine for observing facts & grinding out conclusions"-Charles Darwin

"Man with all his noble qualities, with sympathy which feels for the most debased, with benevolence which extends not only to other men but to the humblest living creature, with his god-like intellect which has penetrated into the movements and constitution of the solar system- with all these exalted powers- Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin." -Charles Darwin

"A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone" -Charles Darwin

"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an improved theory, is it then a science or faith?" -Charles Darwin

AGAIN, I never said I caught a 50/50 cornxyellow snake. I couldn't prove to you that I caught it even if I did have one. Probably found a few 25/75 or 87.50% corn or 25%BlackratXcorn or yellowxBlackratXcorn...
The evidence that this hybrid exists is overwhelming. They are a common natural hybrid that many people have found. Its no big deal or secret. If you want to debate what constitutes truth or reality then you should look up the philosophy forum. Otherwise I am just interested in winning a bet. The fact remains these exist and they are well documented. At this point you are just trying to play me because you cannot back up your $250 promise.

You never gave me proof and you just said you dont have the snake, therefore you havent earned the $250.
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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." -Charles Darwin

"I am turned into a sort of machine for observing facts & grinding out conclusions"-Charles Darwin

"Man with all his noble qualities, with sympathy which feels for the most debased, with benevolence which extends not only to other men but to the humblest living creature, with his god-like intellect which has penetrated into the movements and constitution of the solar system- with all these exalted powers- Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin." -Charles Darwin

"A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone" -Charles Darwin

"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an improved theory, is it then a science or faith?" -Charles Darwin

How about you go and field collect a cornsnake..and PROVE it is 100% pure....just as impossible as the "request" that you set in front of bluerosy..

Later Randy T.
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You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

its not like I have access to wild corn snakes. Why don't you do that and prove to me whether it's pure or not?

sorry about the name changearoo lol this is my girlfriends she turned the damn cookies on.

no post
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You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

np lalalal
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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." -Charles Darwin

"I am turned into a sort of machine for observing facts & grinding out conclusions"-Charles Darwin

"Man with all his noble qualities, with sympathy which feels for the most debased, with benevolence which extends not only to other men but to the humblest living creature, with his god-like intellect which has penetrated into the movements and constitution of the solar system- with all these exalted powers- Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin." -Charles Darwin

"A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone" -Charles Darwin

"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an improved theory, is it then a science or faith?" -Charles Darwin

In the 70s my brother caught a gophersnake that wasn't quite gophersnake. We guessed it was Cal king x San Diego gophersnake. More recently, I saw a CB gopher x Cal king in person, and I'm convinced that the weird snake was indeed that cross.

Also, Shannon Brown posted pics of a WC hybrid - I forgot what is was now, maybe a bairds ratsnake x something. Can't remember, but I saw the pic.

As far as intergrades, that happens all the time- i.e. sinaloae x nelsoni, californiae x splendida to name a few.

you SAY you saw this you SAY you caught that you SAY someone else caught a wild jimbamaroo. Who cares, I can SAY i saw a blood python crossed with an amazon tree boa. People lie, or at least people are able to lie. I'm not trying to say youre lying I'm saying that you have no valid proof other than your word. I dont take words.
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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." -Charles Darwin

"I am turned into a sort of machine for observing facts & grinding out conclusions"-Charles Darwin

"Man with all his noble qualities, with sympathy which feels for the most debased, with benevolence which extends not only to other men but to the humblest living creature, with his god-like intellect which has penetrated into the movements and constitution of the solar system- with all these exalted powers- Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin." -Charles Darwin

"A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone" -Charles Darwin

"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an improved theory, is it then a science or faith?" -Charles Darwin

Yes, actually, it is. My point in my original question was that with all the natural hybridization and intergradation, how can anyone really be sure they are breeding a "pure" animal other than it is purely what they have around at the moment. Whether or not you believe the countless documented cases of peeps finding w/c hybrids doesnt change the fact that they do exhist. There is even an article in reptiles magazine that says the author caught, and dna tested, a gopher/corn cross. At some point you have to believe others are being truthfull. Not all, but even if half of the people saying they found hybrids are telling the truth, then there is your proof.
Mike

Ill believe it when I catch one. period.
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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." -Charles Darwin

"I am turned into a sort of machine for observing facts & grinding out conclusions"-Charles Darwin

"Man with all his noble qualities, with sympathy which feels for the most debased, with benevolence which extends not only to other men but to the humblest living creature, with his god-like intellect which has penetrated into the movements and constitution of the solar system- with all these exalted powers- Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin." -Charles Darwin

"A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone" -Charles Darwin

"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an improved theory, is it then a science or faith?" -Charles Darwin

Even if you found one you will just say it was a captive born hybrid that was released or escaped.

Just have a little faith and be born again. The evidence that demands a verdict is there.

Im not debating or even hinting that they don't exist in the wild, I'm saying you have no proof that these animals are BREEDING in the wild. I COULD say that they are escapees breeding with native populations, which could be true. My only point is that you can't prove anything with words.
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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." -Charles Darwin

"I am turned into a sort of machine for observing facts & grinding out conclusions"-Charles Darwin

"Man with all his noble qualities, with sympathy which feels for the most debased, with benevolence which extends not only to other men but to the humblest living creature, with his god-like intellect which has penetrated into the movements and constitution of the solar system- with all these exalted powers- Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin." -Charles Darwin

"A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone" -Charles Darwin

"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an improved theory, is it then a science or faith?" -Charles Darwin

Or disprove for that matter-what is your point Mr philosopher?

My point is you shouldn't believe everything you hear, or read no matter how accurate it sounds until you have valid proof or have seen it with your own two eyes.
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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." -Charles Darwin

"I am turned into a sort of machine for observing facts & grinding out conclusions"-Charles Darwin

"Man with all his noble qualities, with sympathy which feels for the most debased, with benevolence which extends not only to other men but to the humblest living creature, with his god-like intellect which has penetrated into the movements and constitution of the solar system- with all these exalted powers- Man still bears in his bodily frame the indelible stamp of his lowly origin." -Charles Darwin

"A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone" -Charles Darwin

"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is thus in the peculiar position of being a science founded on an improved theory, is it then a science or faith?" -Charles Darwin

The information/photos are out there for YOU to find! (I ask this and yet here I am wasting my time to inform the less mentally astute)

You don't seem to understand that they exist. And to the animals themselves and the people who have seen/documented same what YOU think dosent mean "diddly" It's been proven. Photographic evidence exist. Breeding trials from MY animals should prove such next year (as much as I DON'T want them to be hybrids). Have you ever found a Short Tailed Snake? I guess they don't exist either?

Wild Hybrids: (this is just off the top of my head, as you can see my main interest is in Crotalids...wonder what's been documented colubrid wise that I haven't found out about?)

Southern Copperhead X Florida Cottonmouth
Ridge Nosed Rattlesnake X Rock Rattlesnake
Prairie Rattlesnake X Western Diamondback
Canebrake/Timber (whichever status you prefer) X Eastern Diamondback
Cornsnake X Yellow/Everglades Ratsnake
Bairds X Emory Ratsnakes

Instead of throwing around your disbelief in scientific documented fact, why don't you spend a little time researching and LEARNING. It will certainly help you look less ignorant to those who have invested the time to seek such knowledge.

Horridus