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Question for Frank

fabrizio13 Feb 23, 2011 10:49 PM

On a recent post you said that you had a group of ackies breed at 4 months, and that sparked some questions for me.

First off, what did their diet contain and how frequent was the feeding?

If I'm correct, you said the basking temps reached 160? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, what was the average clutch size for each female that produced, and how large was your group in the cage? 20 foot by 20 foot cage, right?

Have you tried doing this with any other species of Varanus? Like any larger species or any other dwarfs?

I might have a few more questions later on, so don't be surprised if I come up with a few more. And if anybody else has any experience on "early breeders"?

Thanks to all!
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Jason

Replies (13)

FR Feb 24, 2011 11:23 AM

Hi Jason, Sorry, a little correction, I have had, V.gilleni, V.storri, V.kingorum, V.caudolineatus, V.pilbarensis, produce in approx 4 months. approx means, give or take a few days.

V.acanthurus(four types) V.tristis(both types) V.glaurti, produce eggs at approx 6 months.

I have produced generations of over 20 species, ranging from V.kingorum to croc monitors, and including albigs, varius, all the gouldi complex. and I mean all. and more. Althought, I did not take croc monitors to generations because I needed the space for V.varius.

All the species, do have a range of sizes in which they reproduce. Most all reptiles, do reproduce about about 1/2 they average adult lenght. That is, Ackies, can normally reach a size of over two feet, and our smallest female to successfully reproduce was 11 inches, which is scary small, normally ackie are around 14 inches tl. that reproduce. Also, normally ackies reproduce in the 10 to 12 month range.

We have done the above over a twenty year period and we have all manner of cages, I have a reptile facility, which includes, outdoor cages, indoor cages(a building for just that) and indoor/outdoor cages. On five acres.

over that period of time, we have tested many diets and many regimes. So to give exacts will take hours.

The key to varanids is simple and easy, conditions must support them feeding daily to the max. IF your conditions supports that, you cannot stop them from reproducing. You have to shoot them many times to get them to stop.

this cage the lacies are in, is the 20 by 20 cage, I used it to test the needs of many species. of course 95% of the odatria were done indoors.



fabrizio13 Feb 24, 2011 01:40 PM

Thanks Frank,

Great pictures by the way.

I would be a little uncomfortable breeding a female monitor that small hahahaha. But I get your point. Usually on care sheets and breeding articles, they only talk about age, not size in which the monitor is able to breed. I was under the impression that they only breed at a certain age. It makes so much more sense now truthfully lol.

I guess you learn something new everyday!

Thanks again Frank
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Jason

FR Feb 24, 2011 03:25 PM

Please understand, I too am "uncomfortable" with a female that size. But heres the ABSOLUTE truth. ITs not my call. And its not your call and no friggin care sheets call either.

The reproductive biology of varanids, has a sequence. That is, the female must produce ovum, then release those ovum, that signals the female to emitt pheromones which attacts the/a male.

Males normally are not attracted to non cycled females.

Which means the female dictates the chain of events. Not a male.

So, if a female cycles, in nature, that means she is ready, and she will emitt pheromones. Which will attract males. No care sheet in the world will stop that from happening. hahahahahahahahaha When they are ready they are ready, its not our call. In fact, its much harder on a female to have a non successful reproductive event, then a successful event.

So, who the heck are we to say what is normal or not. We actually know nothing about these animals. So when one cycles, its fact, she is large enough and old enough. That is how animals work. Again, they are not humans. We avoid, medicate, change, and use local customs, to predict when humans breed.

Monitors have thousands of years of culling(phenotypic pressures) to determine the right size and age. Its not our call. With wild animals, we are not suppose to judge, we are suppose to record the event and include it as part of our knowledge base.

So with ackies, our data base is, they can produce viable eggs from 11 inches total lenght, to 18 inches total lenght, depending on conditions, on their first clutch. Its what they do, not what we think about that they do.

But of course, I worry when an edge event occurs, not just too small but also with older animals. as in too old. We humans do worry.

About caresheets, who writes these dumb things, hahahaha and who reads them?????? OK, they are not dumb, well some are. Some are not. Which one did you read???? this is the point, anyone can write anything, and they do. In fact, if you watch these forums(observe) its common to see a person who read something on their first day or two here, become the teacher on the following day. Which is where and how BAD information is created. You do not learn from reading, you are made aware of something by reading. In the case of husbandry, you learn from successfully applying techiques that you have read, not reading about them, applying them. Its simple and common sense. learning is from doing. The test is, how the animals performs. Not a pop quiz at the end of the week on what you read here or on a caresheet, or from reading this reply.

This is a sensitive area for me. Its about people thinking they are the center of all things. So we judge everything from a human standpoint. In the cases of monitors, thats not working so well.

fabrizio13 Feb 24, 2011 04:19 PM

I couldn't agree with you more.

I did know of the cycling of females in nature.

I didn't think of the fact that the wild isn't very consistent and neither is the care of every single animal in every person's care. Sometimes my brain doesn't work how I would want hahahahaha.

Have you had any experience with breeding any other reptiles quicker? Such as tortoises or turtles?

Also, have you seen any early death with any of the animals you bred at 4 to 6 months of age?

Thanks a bunch
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Jason

FR Feb 26, 2011 11:05 AM

Yes, in fact, my approach was not developed with varanids, they somehow just reponded very positively.

All reptiles repond positively to good conditions, and negatively to poor conditions, that is their design.

Its sad that it appears most conditions offered reptiles are based on poor captive conditions and whats easy. Not what wild animals do.

humans appear to be nutballs. that is, all animals have a range of potential. In which they can succeed or fail to reach. Biologically, they cannot exceed their maximum potential or it would result in failure. or vise versa.

For instance, you cannot provide conditions that will allow an ackie to grow to 6 feet like a salvator. No matter what you do. Or would a 7 inch ackie be able to reproduce, unless you found a wild population that developed that. I say that because there are these little red ackies in the west that are very very small.

But you can support an ackie to grow to three feet. So why are we happy when they only get 18inches?

Without adding anything unnatural, an ackie can lay over 6 clutches a year, just heat and food and decent nesting, yet, folks are happy if they hatch an egg. those are my questions to you.

fabrizio13 Mar 01, 2011 11:04 PM

I think a big thing about it is that most people have never bred monitors, so they don't know what kind of resources they need to facilitate even an average egg count. As people who keep them, they can all agree that they can EAT. And I mean EAT. Its sad really.

I once knew a kid who bought 2 baby savannahs from a pet shop in hopes of rasing them to breeding. When he told me, I had to laugh. He kept them correctly......to keep as pets and not breed. His animals grew an inch every month or so, and I had a savannah at the time, and it was growing roughly an inch every week or 2. I told them he needed to feed them way more just for them to grow as they should, but he said he couldn't afford it. He expected to keep a pair of adult savannah monitors and breed them, and he couldn't afford to feed 2 babies they way they should! I talked him into selling to someone who could keep them properly and with the money, getting a pair of leopard geckos to breed thankfully.

I believe people don't want to 'over feed' because of the horror stories of obese geckos. I've had my ackie feeding heavily from the day I got him, and he didn't get fat, he grew,LIKE HE'S SUPPOSE TO!

I call for more Varanid articles in different reptile magazines, they are underated in my personal opinion.
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Jason

moe64 Mar 02, 2011 08:53 AM

It seems right now everyone is stuck on the idea that it's easy to overfeed monitors-instead of the fact that if properly supported it's hard to overfeed monitors.Like Frank said in a previous post,Sav's eat like pigs and are as active as any other monitor-yet we still get 'don't overfeed,they are prone to obesity.One day there will be posts 'if your monitor is obese,you are doing something wrong-no more excuses and justifications.

FR Mar 02, 2011 12:30 PM

That day came and went about 15 years ago. It seems many folks do not or cannot accept responsibility for their own failures.

As you have seen, many folks throw the ego bomb at me because I have succeeded. Funny part is, I succeeded because I blame myself for my failures with animals. I accept they are designed to exceed and prosper. Anything that stops that is MY FAULT.

But sadly most people throw blame at everything and anything, Well, its much easier that way.

In a simple way, they want it fun, and if its work, then it must be the animals fault.

William_M Sep 02, 2011 08:35 AM

"I succeeded because I blame myself for my failures with animals. I accept they are designed to exceed and prosper. Anything that stops that is MY FAULT." - FR

That has got to be the most profound statement I have ever seen regarding Animal care.

Mother Nature has designed her animals to thrive under proper conditions and anything that causes them not to thrive in a captive environment is most definitely the keepers fault for not providing the animal what it needs to thrive in their care.

People need to stop blaming Their animals for their own short comings and either stop keeping that particular species or figure out where They're going wrong and fix the problem(s).

EVILMORPHGOD Mar 03, 2011 11:38 AM

With all of the species you have mastered and the ability to keep your animals OUTDOORS!!!

At present it is like....ummm 15 degrees outside here!!

SATAN
>>
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

fabrizio13 Mar 03, 2011 02:57 PM

No kidding, were dropping into the teens at night here in Kansas. We do have some good things though, sandy soil and hot summers!
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Jason

FR Mar 05, 2011 08:58 AM

I wish I could agree with the outdoors deal. We have to much extreme here. Its very good to have so many days over 95F but not so good above 110F also, we have about 40nights below freezing, the problem is, we get three of so fronts that drop us into the high teens each winter.

Which means, there has only been a couple species that actually work outside, but need added heat all winter. The rest really do need to come in.

Also more truth, 90% of our losses occur outside. it takes the weak quickly, or just takes the healthy, when they make mistakes they normally do not make.

Even the indoor/outdoor cages do not work so well. Only one species has the brains to come in when its cold and thats mertens. The rest cannot seem to figure it out. I have to go fetchum up.

I am not even sure mertens know what they are doing, they just like heat so much the come in for more heat. hahahahahahahaha not to escape the cold. We are not S.Fla. outside is dangerous and risky.

At other times it can be very rewarding. Thanks

fabrizio13 Mar 06, 2011 12:18 AM

I would to love an indoor/outdoor set up for a few monitors. It would be easier because I'm not looking after hundreds of animals! Hahahahahaha. Having a facility in southern Florida would be amazing, but I would hate a hurricane to come threw and tear it all up and have to move all those animals.

A good year in Kansas, I could keep a monitor for only maybe 5-6 months outside, and a few months of that I would have to move them inside. Tegus would be awesome, the size of a medium monitor and they sleep for the coldest parts of the year, but I'm on the wrong forum for that lol.

I would love nothing more to keep a pair of good size monitors in a large outdoor cage. That'll show up the local zoo!
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Jason

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