Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, I know it was "just" a snake...but this sucks.

One of my baby Floridas died yesterday. She was a het Peabino Mosaic. It all started after a regurg a few months back, followed by a refusal to feed after that for several weeks. I treated her with Flagyl and that seemed to work. Her appetite came back and I fed her a newborn pinkie about 10 days after the Flagyl but she regurged that too. I then waited about another week and began feeding her small pieces of F/T roadkill gopher snake I had in the freezer. She readily accepted these and stopped regurgitating. I continued this, every 3-4 days for several weeks. I noticed she continued to lose weight even though she was eating a small meal every few days. I was just too scared to give her any more pinkies at that point for fear she would regurg again. Guess it wasn't enough.

She was kept in a shoebox, between 84-86, and had a most hide w/ spagnum moss. I also had a larger deli cup of water in with her to raise the humidity level a little more.

But unfortunately, inspite of all my efforts, she died anyway. I know these things happen once in a while, BUT THIS SUCKS. It ruined my whole night last night.

Times like these are definitely the "lows" of raising snakes.

Did you happen to get a fecal run on her at all? It's always nice to rule out crypto when dealing with a case of multiple regurges.

No...wish I could have, though. And you're right, I'd at least feel a little better if I could just know why...and/or what it WASN'T.

And on a side note...as bad as I feel about losing a nice animal to something out of my control, it makes me think about the "Mad Culler". I try so hard to maintain as close to perfect conditions and care for my animals, and to think about what Dr. Evil does on a seemingly regular basis just blows my mind. What a freak.

Sorry you lost one of your babies. I think we all eventually lose one to causes unknown in spite of our best efforts.
The "mad culler" may well be Josef Mengele in reincarnation. Some people just like to kill; it gives them a sense of power. Creating life is much more challenging and rewarding than creating death, in my opinion.
-----
Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Unfortunately you're exactly right. It's the way of the world though. Here I am (as are most of us, in this "thing" we do), raising up a perfectly healthy baby snake, for close to a year, and then spending several weeks trying to trouble shoot, and pull it out of its funk, ultimately with negative results. Although I certainly feel bad about it, I can accept it because I know it will happen from time to time. What a difference in philosophy though, - that being, the great lengths most of us go to, to care for our animals and keep them ALIVE, and then to read the post of the "Culler" who's arbitrarily killing snakes because of " unfavorable" dispositions and normal feeding preferences that the "Culler" deems undesirable.

I'm Not trying to dredge up old posts and topics - I know this one is "old news" and has already been hashed, rehashed, and hashed over again, but I was away from the forums for several days and I just saw it for the first time today.

I am so sorry my friend. Sometimes some snakes just don't do well. You did all that you could, and gave it a great home and care.

-----
Genesis 1:1

I'm really sorry to hear that man! I know how it can get you down. Did the snake have any signs of a swollen belly or soft spot in the middle somewhere?
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Thanks for the kind words bro...and to the few others who expressed their heart felt condolences. Times like these are tough. LOL!

Anyway, no, there wasn't the soft lump you speak of. (Hahaha!). I've seen that before occasionally over the years, but after thinking about it I'm pretty sure, and it's really just a guess at this point, that the snake probably became emaciated and reached the point of "no return". Sometimes this happens I suppose, but who really knows. Regardless, I Wish I could've done more to save it though.

Thanks again!

That is one of the nicst Florida kings i have ever seen.

-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Hahahaha! (If you don't say so yourself) Thanks Rainer...he's a screamer alright. He's only getting brighter too.

You shouldn't beat yourself up -- you went above and beyond to help the snake thrive. You done good.

It is natural that some hatchlings are not destined to make it. That's why snakes lay so many eggs -- of those that do hatch, only some survive. The majority die from being preyed upon, disease (both acquired and congenital), accidents (e.g., road kill), etc.

I suggest that you focus on feeling good about all the babies you did get to thrive. The concept of "life goes on" applies not to individuals but rather groups of organisms.

Cheers,

Tom

Thanks Tom. And yeah, i have 3 other siblings of the one that croaked that are kicking a lot of %&# right now, chowing down mice and growing rapidly. So the deceadent's (hahaha) legacy will live on.

Besides, if this is the worst thing that happens all week, then I can't complain too much. As the saying goes, Every day above ground's a good day. (If you're an athiest - lol)

Take care man.

Here's a a pair of some of my Beloved Nigritis.

No offense Tom, but your wrong. They do not have so many eggs for THIS reason. They lay many eggs because of predators and droughts, and floods. Not because there is something wrong with the hatchling.

The reality is, this keeper did something to cause the death of that snake. What that is, I do not know.

There is one thing for sure, these snakes ARE NOT DESIGNED for shoeboxes etc. They are designed for a specific habitat, with specific conditions. Which is nothing like our shoe boxes.

Yes, there are individual snakes and species that tolerate our shoeboxes better then others, to some degree, but its NOT WHAT THEY DO. So its our task, to meet the needs of all the individual snakes we stick in shoeboxes.

For instance, SNAKES use a temp range in nature of, 50F to over 100F. They use all areas of that temp range depending on need, conserving energy, to expending mass amounts of energy, to digestion of varying prey items, using different temps, and building their immune system. Yet in captivity we give them mid 80's plus or minus, in the summer and BRUMATION in the winter, even if they do not necessarily do that in nature.

Sorry, but its ok, that the keeper tried everything they knew, but its surely not the animals fault. It tried with its life to exsist. So please consider what your saying when your attempting to console the keeper. It IS OUR FAULT WHEN THE DIE IN OUR CARE. Man up and accept it.

" The reality is, this keeper did something to cause the death of that snake. What that is, I do not know. "

Actually, the reality is, you yourself know NOTHING about what exactly the keeper did, other than what he typed in his posts. End of story.

Did you do some sort of necropsy on his deceased snake? Were you able to fully dissect, and view every organ and piece of tissue? Were you able to view samples underneath a microscope? Were you able to fully comprise data of this particular death of this particular snake and come to an educated hypothesis? Nope.

If you really desire to have people take you somewhat seriously, than please refrain from making rude outbursts about instances in particular that you really do know nothing about. At least you admitted that at the end of your presumptious statement that you did not know, which is hypocritical of your first part of your statement to begin with. No need to be so condescending over something like this. Time to grow up.

-----
Genesis 1:1

Its really not all that complicated, you put them in a box, your responsible for their lives. End of story.

I have nothing against the keeper, who lost the snake, if you had a brain and could read, you would understand, I disagreed with the reply that stated, "some snakes are just meant to die, thats why they lay a lot of eggs".

It is really not that complicated. You were extremely presumptious with your rude comment that could not be backed up:

"The reality is, this keeper did something to cause the death of that snake. What that is, I do not know."

That comment alone explains a lot. Another example of you coming on an internet forum and speaking so much of something you know nothing of. Again, if you want people to take you seriously, you may want to not say such childish things.

In other words, chill.

-----
Genesis 1:1

Billy (DISCERN) thinks he is the internet police. He has an idea of how he wants other people to think, walk, talk act. Ect.

that's okay because the world without his type would not be complete either.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Sadly, I thought this was all over. You know better than to start trolling. Please stop.

Actually, what I and many others have been saying is just our opinions. Nothing more. Just an opinion, and no policing here on my end involved. You have no need to helplessly try to defend your little buddy here. He has already spoken.

Next.
-----
Genesis 1:1

Billy,
You remind me of the guy who reads the bible and then trys to control(Troll)everybody elses lifestyle through legalism.

Get with the program Billy. That is not how your are going to convert people.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Sorry, but you have NO room to even say that whole last post. Those who really know you, that I know, are now really laughing. Nothing more needs to be sadi. Please do not make this any more ridiculous than this is. Shhhhhhh.....I am done.
-----
Genesis 1:1

Billy you don't know me and the few people that do personally know me on this forum will vouch for me. Otherwise what you may be hearing is pure speculation. Whatever that may be.

Piont is you are basing things on speculation and little information and making it gospel. That is what you do. That is how your mind operates.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Nobody knows for sure why the hell that snake died,...and certainly not you either..LOL!

Sure!, all SORTS of snakes die every single day because of extremely poor husbandry. They can also die for numerous OTHER reasons too.

We all know there has never been a snake that died in your care, or if it did, you will simply say it was because you were much younger and inexperienced I suppose...right??..LMAO!

I guess the ghost Honduran that a buddy of mine hatched that had a big hard lump right where the heart was right out of the egg was his fault too!..HAHAA!!

Point being, not all snakes, or ANY animal for that matter ALWAYS dies because of the keeper. That makes ZERO SENSE!, no matter how hard you try to say it does.

I sure as heck am not saying it "couldn't" have been something he did or didn't do either, but for you to come here knowing absolutely NOTHING about his snakes or husbandry skills/practices and say that is just plain ridiculous!, and extremely pompous(as usual) to say the very least oh great Mr. "pioneer" ambassador.

I have read some silly comments in my day, but that has to be way up there with the best of them bud.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

So you cannot read either, or that burr in your butt is irratating you again.

The reply stated, "some snakes are meant to die, thats why they lay a lot of eggs"

There was no indication of a deformity. Even if there was, if that deformity was from one of your females, then its also your RESPONSIBILITY.

This HORSE shat about when someone calls others out over being responsible, is countered by, the thought it never happened to them is STUPID. Of course it happened to me. Many times. In many cases, I learned or attempted to learn, in other cases, I could not find the reason of causing a failure. THat I could not find a reason, does not make it the snakes fault.

Again, we put them in boxes, its our fault. I can see it now, they find you dead in a prison cell, your head caved in. The warden saying, got me, he must have had a soft head, some prisoners just have soft heads. But, no worries, there are lots of prisoners.

I'am just saying, if your blame the snakes in your cages for dying, then the warden was right.

Humans (Of coarse only certain)= Moms(of any species) always want to revive,save,defend they're scientificly defiscient. so they can do as nature asks TO reproduce and
Defend .Natural Selection . Morphes ARE deformaties, But Fun to the hobby......OMG ,Did I just post this ?!!! Peace Darwin seems logical

He's right Tom. You DO need to accept it...And man up. Quit being such a whimp. You make me sick. What the heck were you thinking right then...trying to encourage "the keeper" and all that. But that's beside the point. I certainly do not want to get off point here; point being that the said "keeper" killed the aforementioned captive reptilian in cold blood due to the "keeper's" inadequate husbandry methods.

Now with that being said, the "keeper" finally knows, absolutely and unequivocally, that he, the "keeper", caused the snake to die. And now the "keeper", has to accept this...but you still do too, Tom (so man up, whimp). At least now, the "keeper" (me-mbrawley) can breath a sigh of relief and no longer ponder the mysteries of life and death.

Now don't get all crazy on me FR...just having fun here in my boring office

My only point is this, I AGREE, and I think I made it clear in my post, the snake was in perfect health for close to a year before her fateful demise. So YES, it probably was husbandry related...however COMMA,
Unless a post mortem exam was done on it (which it wasn't) how can ANYONE, including me, definitively make that assessment? It's not that simple and there are a lot of variables in this world we live. It's not like the snake was left in a car for two hours during a 110* mid summer afternoon with the windows rolled up. It's not like a left a rat in the tub over night and found a bigger, fatter, lazier rat in the tub the next day, but no snake. The fact is sometimes these things CAN happen and for no apparent reason. As a matter of fact, I've seen the occasional reptile in the wild (over many years of herping) that appeared to be really weak and malnurished, circling the drain,for some unknown reason. Sounds like survival of the fittest to me.

One of the things you quickly disputed Tom about in your reply was regarding the number of offspring procreated by reptiles, and their mortality rate. I noticed your main disagreement was specifically the disease comment he made, yet the first thing he rightly stated WAS predation - As did YOU. You guys are on the same page. It seems like the motality rate vs disease discussion, -factual or not- is kind of trivial and is really just a small difference of opinion that needs NOT be made an issue of in the context of my post. Give Tom a break. You read his post; it's clear what his intentions were. He's a big boy I'm sure and doesn't need me go to bat for him, but really, no need to come at him like that. You gotta admit when you re-read your post, it was a little condescending. I did not ask Tom for his kind sentiments...But I appreciate them. So now I feel worse about the whole "Tom getting his ass chewed" than I did about my snake dying. PLEASE...NO MORE KIND WORDS EVERYONE. hahahha! J/K!

Thanks again Tom.

And FR, no big deal, no harm no foul. Please don't take this the wrong way man.

Don't worry. As a "big boy" I took no personal offense at FR's strange comments. Not sure what his issues are and don't really care.

I'm glad that YOU understood the intent of my message -- that's all that matters to me. Good luck with this year's breeding season!

Regards,
Tom

Thanks Tom and same to you, except the "don't worry and I don't care part".

Keep your head low.

When a herp dies in my care, I always assume that it is my fault, unless there is strong evidence to the contrary (like the heart on the outside). I think that such an assumption is a good base point to start from when trying to determine cause of death. As Doug and others pointed out, in some instances, congenital or genetic factors are to blame. However in my experience, those instances are extraordinarily rare. I agree with Frank, these things have been designed to succeed over the millenia. Now, I'm not saying that this guy killed this snake with love, I can't know that. But I think it is a possibility that the keeper and the rest of us should consider, and we shouldn't get all beat up over the fact that it has been suggested. My most valuable lessons keeping herps have unfortunately been learned because of the deaths of some prized specimens. If we are honest, those of us with any amount of experience will admit that. I have some true, tragic horror stories, but I learned from them. I'm sure folks will chime-in, stating that has not happened to them. To those lucky few, I say your most valuable lessens are still ahead of you.

From the initial description of the incident, there are a few things that I have learned when similar situations occured with my animals, and they have, and still do occasionally. I have babies regurg every so often (like rack of 100 at a time), and I can almost always point to an error in cage temp choices, like the heat tape reo got cranked up or turned down (my fault) and the babies couldn't metabolize the pinkies before they became too putrid. In those instances, I leave the cages cool and don't offer food for a couple of weeks to a month. To do otherwise is inviting cronic regurgitation that will likely kill the snake (similar to the way described). Also, in my experience, giving any drug to a baby kingsnake is a crap shoot at best. Likelyhood of immediate or later organ failure (death) is high. Dosages are very difficult to get right, and often the prescribed ones are wrong. I have unintentionally killed baby kingsnakes with both panacur and flagyl in the past. Finally, while I have no problem feeding kings wild food, offering part of a road killed animal to a snake that has a recent history of regurgitation, has been drugged with flagyl, and is likely immuno-surpressed/stressed, is kind of a recipe for failure. This all in my opinion, of course.

To the keeper, I'm not trying to start trouble or make you feel bad. I think it is healthy to consider our own possible errors, often born of good intention, as the cause of death. Doing so helps us to gain experience and get better at this, which we can all stand to do. I'm glad your other babies are doing well.

Will

Perfect post!!! Good thoughts there my friend!
-----
Genesis 1:1

>>When a herp dies in my care, I always assume that it is my fault, unless there is strong evidence to the contrary (like the heart on the outside). I think that such an assumption is a good base point to start from when trying to determine cause of death. As Doug and others pointed out, in some instances, congenital or genetic factors are to blame. However in my experience, those instances are extraordinarily rare. I agree with Frank, these things have been designed to succeed over the millenia. Now, I'm not saying that this guy killed this snake with love, I can't know that. But I think it is a possibility that the keeper and the rest of us should consider, and we shouldn't get all beat up over the fact that it has been suggested. My most valuable lessons keeping herps have unfortunately been learned because of the deaths of some prized specimens. If we are honest, those of us with any amount of experience will admit that. I have some true, tragic horror stories, but I learned from them. I'm sure folks will chime-in, stating that has not happened to them. To those lucky few, I say your most valuable lessens are still ahead of you.
>>
>>From the initial description of the incident, there are a few things that I have learned when similar situations occured with my animals, and they have, and still do occasionally. I have babies regurg every so often (like rack of 100 at a time), and I can almost always point to an error in cage temp choices, like the heat tape reo got cranked up or turned down (my fault) and the babies couldn't metabolize the pinkies before they became too putrid. In those instances, I leave the cages cool and don't offer food for a couple of weeks to a month. To do otherwise is inviting cronic regurgitation that will likely kill the snake (similar to the way described). Also, in my experience, giving any drug to a baby kingsnake is a crap shoot at best. Likelyhood of immediate or later organ failure (death) is high. Dosages are very difficult to get right, and often the prescribed ones are wrong. I have unintentionally killed baby kingsnakes with both panacur and flagyl in the past. Finally, while I have no problem feeding kings wild food, offering part of a road killed animal to a snake that has a recent history of regurgitation, has been drugged with flagyl, and is likely immuno-surpressed/stressed, is kind of a recipe for failure. This all in my opinion, of course.
>>
>>To the keeper, I'm not trying to start trouble or make you feel bad. I think it is healthy to consider our own possible errors, often born of good intention, as the cause of death. Doing so helps us to gain experience and get better at this, which we can all stand to do. I'm glad your other babies are doing well.
>>
>>Will
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Thanks Will...nicely put. Thanks for being rational.

BTW - I accepted it. I too, "manned up" earlier this afternoon.

LOL

great post will, all i am saying is the same thing.

your post is/was very well stated,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>>She was kept in a shoebox, between 84-86, and had a most hide w/ spagnum moss. I also had a larger deli cup of water in with her to raise the humidity level a little more.

>seems like you offer a descent humidity gradient but a temp gradient of 2 degrees!, sorry to say thats probably what doomed the lil guy/girl reptiles are NOT meant to be kept within such temp. confines.no reptile should be kept at static temps. also temp. gradients can be easily provided with a lil imagination.

bring on the hounds
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

my bad, I should've been a little more specific in what I meant.

My thermostat is set at 85, with a 1 degree differential, which is why I stated "84-86". The thermostat also is set for a 10 degree nighttime offset which allows a temp drop all through the PM. I definitely have some fluctuation in temp, but as stated before, I know that may still not have been good enough.

Thanks for the feedback!

the bigger the gradient the better. also temp gradients should be provided for at all times. static temps should be avoided. i shoot for 70-72room temps this allows for a larger gradient in cages. there are also many methods to tweek temps both ways in a cage. watch your snakes and they will tell you what they like.
good luck
,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

my bad, I should've been a little more specific in what I meant.

My thermostat is set at 85, with a 1 degree differential, which is why I stated "84-86". The thermostat also is set for a 10 degree nighttime offset which allows a temp drop all through the PM. I definitely have some fluctuation in temp, but as stated before, I know that may still not have been good enough.

Thanks for the feedback!

>>my bad, I should've been a little more specific in what I meant.
>>
>>My thermostat is set at 85, with a 1 degree differential, which is why I stated "84-86". The thermostat also is set for a 10 degree nighttime offset which allows a temp drop all through the PM. I definitely have some fluctuation in temp, but as stated before, I know that may still not have been good enough.
>>
>>Thanks for the feedback!

Thermal gradients aren't day to night time temps..........not in captivity........thermal gradients are constantly provided.......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

You're right and I understand the difference and that's what I try to do - maintain a cooler side as opposite of the basking side. It's kind of tough though using a shoe box rack system to effectively maintain a temp gradient, other than keeping a deli cup w/moist spagnum moss at the opposite end of the heat source. How can I accomplish this using 13" x 8" shoeboxes for babies? (I'm not being rhetorical - I'm being serious, I wanna know)

Thanks in advance John

>>You're right and I understand the difference and that's what I try to do - maintain a cooler side as opposite of the basking side. It's kind of tough though using a shoe box rack system to effectively maintain a temp gradient, other than keeping a deli cup w/moist spagnum moss at the opposite end of the heat source. How can I accomplish this using 13" x 8" shoeboxes for babies? (I'm not being rhetorical - I'm being serious, I wanna know)
>>
>>Thanks in advance John

Using Belly heat it is very hard to achieve......IMHO....
Using Heat Cable it is much easier achieved.......
My herp room has a window unit air conditioner / backed up by central air........I try to keep my room rather cool....around 70F.......The heat cable only heats the back part of the enclosure and the air in that area. I try to get it to stay around 88F to 90F there....The surface temp of the back the tub is usually 90F and the air temps are around 88 next to the plastic.....Also make sure you have deep aspen.....Most people use newspaper or paper towels....The deep aspen allows thermal regulation from bottom to top as well as from front to back.......BTW....Thomas' Snake Toobs work good for that sort of Thermal gradient.......

I am not saying this is what happened to your snake......I still believe there are defects from inbreeding that are not visual.
Weak hearts, lungs and other organs can be the cause of death just like in humans..........
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

"The deep aspen allows thermal regulation from bottom to top as well as from front to back"

This is the main reason why i like aspen. I originally switched from paper towels to aspen because i wanted a substrate that could absorb the funk better and also provide more comfort/security to my snakes by allowing them to burrow in it.

After switching to aspen, i noticed that when my snakes are inside their hides, sometimes they would be on top of the aspen and sometimes underneath. It's a great way to provide additional temp options for your snakes. This turned out to be what i like most about aspen.

P.S. John, i took your suggestion and provided a humid hide for my snakes so they have a humidity gradient to choose from. It's been at least a month so far, and i found that my okeetee will use it once every couple of weeks, but the floridana has yet to make use of it. I have space for the humid hide thogh, so i'll still keep them in there.

>>"The deep aspen allows thermal regulation from bottom to top as well as from front to back"
>>
>>This is the main reason why i like aspen. I originally switched from paper towels to aspen because i wanted a substrate that could absorb the funk better and also provide more comfort/security to my snakes by allowing them to burrow in it.
>>
>>After switching to aspen, i noticed that when my snakes are inside their hides, sometimes they would be on top of the aspen and sometimes underneath. It's a great way to provide additional temp options for your snakes. This turned out to be what i like most about aspen.
>>
>>P.S. John, i took your suggestion and provided a humid hide for my snakes so they have a humidity gradient to choose from. It's been at least a month so far, and i found that my okeetee will use it once every couple of weeks, but the floridana has yet to make use of it. I have space for the humid hide thogh, so i'll still keep them in there.

They don't have to be IN it to USE it.....
The moist hide itself provides humidity..........
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Very good....thanks John. I'm gonna crack my rep room window to lower the ambient temp (still pretty cold outside these days) throughout the room. It stays about 75-80ish usually during the day. My wife likes running the heat in the house so the room is naturally warmer too, with all of the electrics for reptiles.

I do what you said...and one more thing, I do use Harlan shredded aspen already and love it.

Thanks again for the advice, John

>>Very good....thanks John. I'm gonna crack my rep room window to lower the ambient temp (still pretty cold outside these days) throughout the room. It stays about 75-80ish usually during the day. My wife likes running the heat in the house so the room is naturally warmer too, with all of the electrics for reptiles.
>>
>>I do what you said...and one more thing, I do use Harlan shredded aspen already and love it.
>>
>>Thanks again for the advice, John

Must be nice....It is already in 75F-80F outside down here in South Texas.....LOL
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Hi John,

That's the point, you really can't. We all use shoeboxes, they are very convenient, but you can't have a temp gradient in something a foot long. If one is lucky, the back of the cage will be warm enough to allow the digestion of food and the front will be cool enough to allow some sort of balance and relief from the heat. That is all we can hope for with shoe boxes. I'm not trashing them, hell, I have several hundred of them, as do many others here, but they are far from perfect. If you can achieve a balance and see the snake making frequent choices you should be ok. I personally keep my snake building cool (55-70) this time of the year and that actually allows me to tweak my racks a bit better, as warming from a cool base is easier than the opposite. Good luck.

Will

Again, nicely put Will. Another Great, and constructive comment. Thank you.

Btw- who's John? Hahaha!

My name's Micah but you can call me "the keeper" like some of these other talking heads.
LOL

Hi Micah,

Sorry, I get a little confus-ed navigating these long threads. I'm always mixing folks up. Thank you for your kind words.

Will

Don't sweat it man....and good to meet you.

I did not mean for the wild fire I seemingly started. Truth of the matter is, I unfortunately lost a single baby snake that was in my care...among about 50 other babies in the same rack, same exact conditions, and on the same feeding schedule and same diet.(All the others are thriving and this is the first snake I've lost in a long time). Certainly there was some deficiency or issue with that particular snake, that I ADMITTEDLY, most likely than not, caused. And this led to its untimely and unfortunate death. I KNOW THIS!!!!!! And I accept it. DID EVERYONE HEAR THAT?!!!! I also realize I invited all of the feedback - both positive and negative. I posted it in the "shark" forum accidentally while trying to find the KS forum...oops. Actually the same thing happened in my very first post as a "newbie" to the forum. Now, I accept this too and am not gonna lose any sleep over it. I just wish the ones who are squawking the loudest about the "keeper" and how it was ALL due to his insufficient husbandry would not be so primarily concerned with slamming me about it, rather than offering a well informed AND constructive piece of advice, so it is less likely to happen again. After all, what the hell is this forum for? I'm amazed how self righteous some people are - as if they know me and my situation better than I do. They can't even get my user name right. It's mbrawley - not "the keeper". But who cares...Anyway, as I was saying -LOL! I come on here to talk snakes, share info, learn, meet other reptile fanatics, see what's new, AND learn a little something. The latter most often the case. Oh yeah, and for the entertainment. As do the silent majority. But then there's also the peanut gallery. Those who are sitting in wait, in a dark room somewhere, online all the time. These dudes have nothing better to do than post unhelpful comments and critiques, and then go back and re-read what they posted and pat themselves on the back, while looking in the mirror. How many "newbies" got the hell out of dodge the first time they posted a question or comment and then got chewed up and spit out. Too bad. I'm no stranger to this mentality though. It really is basic human nature. It's the need to be recognized. I see it on the job every now and then. Whenever there's a promotion coming up you see guys spouting off all over the place, politicing and trash talking about others, all in a feeble attempt to get noticed by the brass. And guess what, they DO get noticed by the brass! Hahaha! But not in the way they hoped. It's the way of the world, for a special select few - not all. Nevertheless, it's nothing new. Personally though, I I try not to split hairs or get too focused on the minors in life. Life's too short.

So with all that being said Will, you my friend, as are a few others on this post, a breath of fresh air. Thanks again.

BTW - Anyone familiar with the acronym "K.I.S.S."? If not, Google it. It's frequently reminded to certain guys in my line of work...some on a daily basis. LOL!!!!

On second thought...disregard all the "trash talking" I JUST DID! LOL! I guess I let myself get caught up all of it too. In all seriousness though, I apologize for offending anyone with the things I said.

Happy Trails!

They can't even get my user name right. It's mbrawley - not "the keeper". But who cares..

How about "Snake Killer"?

LOL!! I am just ribbing ya!

I have had perfectly fat hhealthy snakes die this past year. Just one day opened the cage one day and they were gone. But these last 6 months in my lif have been Murphys law at work at its best.

Then there is the rare Mexican axanthic rosys which all die no matter what you do. (and still do) (always!) due to something in their genetic skin makeup. They just die after being fed for 6 months. Perfectly heathy-BANG- gone!

but most of the time a snake dies it is due to some husbandry. My guess is parasites in most cases... water bowls-drinking it own feces etc.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

The post that should wrap it all up!

Perfect in every way!
-----
Genesis 1:1

Hi John L.

Good point about the deep substrate, I agree, that is another excellent technique to buffer the small area of a shoebox. My other response to your post should have been a response to the original poster. Sorry.

Will

>>Hi John L.
>>
>>Good point about the deep substrate, I agree, that is another excellent technique to buffer the small area of a shoebox. My other response to your post should have been a response to the original poster. Sorry.
>>
>>Will

It does help buffer back heat but whenever I used flexwatt belly heat it did nothing but insulate the entire shoebox and heat it completely up with no gradient........The aspen distributed the heat evenly it seemed.....So all I use is backheat now on the hatchling racks.......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

A guys snake dies, That's a shame. sorry Micah. But it got people talking and discussing what might have happened and how maybe to avoid it next time. With all the talking I have learned more and maybe a few others as well. And to me that's a good thing. So that's what I take from this.
Thank- you
-----
Tom S
1.1 Flame Lampropeltis getla Floridana
1.0 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Axanthic Lampropeltis getula Floridana
0.1 Hypomelanistic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis
1.0 Anerythristic Lampropeltis triangulum hondurensis

This thread got too tedious to read the whole thing, so I may be saying what someone already said; the best thing to do is take the dead snake to a veterinarian and have a postmortem done.
-----
Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

While we won't know in this case for sure what was what, here is a related story:

I acquired 3 rosyboas (I know, not kingsnakes..) from a breeder. Two died within a week for no apparent reason. I was doing the rack system, 83deg thing back then.

The 3rd rosy I put in a glass tank, and I forgot to dim the heat pad down for some reason - it was running full on and got quite hot. I saw the rosy use it for awhile. Darn if that rosy didn't survive.

Maybe, just maybe, the elevated temps were what that rosy needed. Maybe I didn't even give the other two a fighting chance. I'll never know for sure, but it is helpful to at least consider that I could have made a difference. If this happens again I will elevate temps as my first action.
-----
Mark

levating temps is good for sick smakes.

Also, as you know, rosys do better with open top ventilation units.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com