Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is this what is called a paradox albino?

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-Niklas

I've never seen one like that, but I'm sure some of the more experienced corn guys will chime in.

Looks like it dipped its head in bleach! Did you hatch it yourself? Is it feeding, shedding, etc, normally?

Will be interesting to see how it developes as it grows.
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Kent

1.1 Hypo (het lavender, striped) cornsnakes, 2010
1.2 Gray-banded kingsnakes, blairs phase, 2008
1.1 Oregon rubber boas, WC, 20??

Works great with everything.
No I have not hatched it himself.
But I think it is a "Stargazer" if that is what it is called when they turn their heads upside down?
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-Niklas

The white part could indicate an area of abnormal development, which could also explain the neurologic signs you are reporting. RichZ had hatched out once a "piebald" corn, where the white patch was directly associated with a kink in the spine. This has happened with other 'piebald' corns as well.

There's no such thing as a Paradox Albino in Corn Snakes. There is for Boa Constrictors and Ball Pythons. In a Paradox Albino an albino has BLACK markings - not white.

If that snake has something wrong with it, then the white on it's head is probably an abnormality that goes along with its birth defect and therefore probably isn't inheritable.

Tim
Third Eye

by definition it would be a Paradox....."unexplainable"
can be white or black markings...extra pigment or loss of pigment

my thought...

this is an amel with snow head....unexplainable to me...

as far as stargazer or neurological problems...that just sucks....

good luck....if it's that badly weird in the head...I wouldn't breed it....but I think spider balls should have never been reproduced and I have a bunch of them....(pinstripes work better)

never saw a white headed one...cool sorta....

good luck
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........JY

You might want to invest in a dictionary. Paradox means "contradictory" not "unexplainable." This is why a Paradox Albino has black. The snake in the photo has no black. It is not a Paradox Albino.

Tim

>>You might want to invest in a dictionary. Paradox means "contradictory" not "unexplainable." This is why a Paradox Albino has black. The snake in the photo has no black. It is not a Paradox Albino.
>>
>>Tim

the dictionary also does not mention black

A paradox is a seemingly true statement or group of statements that lead to a contradiction or a situation which seems to defy logic or intuition. The term is also used for an apparent contradiction that actually expresses a non-dual truth such as two true sentences which put together seem incompatible as both being true (cf. Catuskoti). Typically however, quoted paradoxical statements do not imply a real contradiction and the puzzling results can be rectified by demonstrating that one or more of the premises themselves are not really true, a play on words, faulty and/or cannot all be true together. But many paradoxes, such as Curry's paradox, do not yet have universally accepted resolutions. The word paradox is often used interchangeably with contradiction. Literary and other artistic uses of paradoxes imply no contradiction and may be used to describe situations that are ironic.[1] Sometimes the term paradox is used for situations that are merely surprising.

so since the head is somewhat surprising and does seem to defy logic...by definition it can be called a paradox
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Corn snakes and rat snakes...No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)

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"the dictionary also does not mention black"

I never said it did. The "contradictory" part of "Paradox Albino" is that albino refers to white and black contradicts white.

If you do a Google image search for "Paradox Albino Ball Python" or "Paradox Albino Boa" you will see albino animals with patches of black. This is what a "Paradox Albino" is as meant within the context of the snake keeping hobby.

Dictionary defintions don't always apply to specific names given to things with a particular topic. For example, I doubt most dictionarys define the word "pinky" as a hairless rodent.

The word "bridge" means something different when applied to architecture, a turtle or a guitar.

That snake is not a "Paradox Albino" in the context that the term is used for Boas and Ball Pythons.

If you want to make up your own defintions for words, then that's cool. But I think it's useful to point out that the term has been used for years in the Boa/Python hobby and it means something very specific to the breeders of those snakes. The snake in the photo is not a "Paradox Albino" in regards to what is generally accepted as such a morph in the hobby.

Tim

>>"the dictionary also does not mention black"
>>
>>I never said it did. The "contradictory" part of "Paradox Albino" is that albino refers to white and black contradicts white.
>>

>>
>>Dictionary defintions don't always apply to specific names given to things with a particular topic. For example, I doubt most dictionarys define the word "pinky" as a hairless rodent.
>>
>
>>If you want to make up your own defintions for words, then that's cool.

YOU are the one that said look it up in the dictionary....I DID
That is the definition given in the dictionary.
Ball python, black, white, doesn't mater....
YOU SAID DICTIONARY..by definition paradox can and does fit.
I didn't make up [bleep].
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Corn snakes and rat snakes...No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)

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I said dictionary in respone to "by definition it would be a Paradox....."unexplainable"

The definition of paradox is NOT "unexplainable" its "contradictory."

I already mentioned that.

The name "Paradox Albino" is used because black contradicts white (albino). I already explained that.

"Paradox Albino" is used to describe a specfic morph of snake. It's been used for years. The snake in the photo is not a Paradox Albino because it has no black, I already explained that, too.

If you want to come up with your own defintions for things that's cool - call it what you want. In my experience when a snake has a patch of white where its not supposed to, is referred to as "piebald."

Believe whatever you like.

Tim

>>I said dictionary in respone to "by definition it would be a Paradox....."unexplainable"
>>
>>The definition of paradox is NOT "unexplainable" its "contradictory."
>>
>>I already mentioned that.
>>
>>The name "Paradox Albino" is used because black contradicts white (albino). I already explained that.
>>
>>"Paradox Albino" is used to describe a specfic morph of snake. It's been used for years. The snake in the photo is not a Paradox Albino because it has no black, I already explained that, too.
>>
>>If you want to come up with your own defintions for things that's cool - call it what you want. In my experience when a snake has a patch of white where its not supposed to, is referred to as "piebald."
>>
>>Believe whatever you like.
>>
>>Tim

OK, going to do this once
When you took it down to the definition of the word paradox the other arguments became a moot point

Your exact quote..
“You might want to invest in a dictionary. Paradox means "contradictory" not "unexplainable." This is why a Paradox Albino has black. The snake in the photo has no black. It is not a Paradox Albino.”

So taking your quote….I looked up paradox and posted the exact definition of the word Paradox

“A paradox is a seemingly true statement or group of statements that lead to a contradiction OR A SITUATION WHICH SEEMS TO DEFY LOGIC OR INTUITION. The term is also used for an apparent contradiction that actually expresses a non-dual truth such as two true sentences which put together seem incompatible as both being true (cf. Catuskoti). Typically however, quoted paradoxical statements do not imply a real contradiction and the puzzling results can be rectified by demonstrating that one or more of the premises themselves are not really true, a play on words, faulty and/or cannot all be true together. But many paradoxes, such as Curry's paradox, do not yet have universally accepted resolutions. The word paradox is often used interchangeably with contradiction. Literary and OTHER ARTISTIC USES OF PARADOXES IMPLY NO CONTRADICTION AND MAY BE USED TO DESCRIBE SITUATIONS THAT ARE MERELY SURPRISING. “

In the definition of paradox see the portions in caps…
These phrases in the definition of the word paradox, which you partially quoted, allow for the use of the word paradox to describe the snake in question.
The head is somewhat surprising and does seem to defy logic. Therefore, by definition it can be called a paradox

You can jump up and down, use your typical condescending attitude and spout all the snake literature you want but by bringing the topic to the definition of the word paradox, which you did, you basically blocked your own arguments.

Also, to insinuate that I made up the definition of the word paradox in my original post means you didn’t know or take the time to look up the definition your self.

So this should sum up my feelings on the subject and anything beyond this becomes moot and basically not worth any more time or effort on my part.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes...No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)

_____

"When you took it down to the definition of the word paradox the other arguments became a moot point"
Really? I pointed out the the definition of "unexplainable" was wrong.

In my "Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language" it states the definition of paradox as "1. a statement that seems contradictory, absurd, etc. but may be true in fact. 2. a statement that is self-contradictory in fact and, hence, false. 3. a person or thing seeming inconsistant and full of contradictions."

In the definition above the idea of contradiction is used in each of the various instances. "Unexplainable" is not. I'm not sure what you are arguing about, but it's pretty obvious to me that a paradox is a contradiction. Whether is "defies logic" or not is a "moot point."

"You can jump up and down, use your typical condescending attitude"
Really? You think I'm jumping up and down? AND you think I'm condescending? Interesting.

"and spout all the snake literature you want"
I don't regard the dictionary as snake literature. I did point out that a simple Google image search will show that the Paradox Albino is a specific morph, which that Corn Snake is not. I don't regard Google as "snake literature." Rather, I think of it as a commonly used general purpose search tool for the internet. Anyways, do you have something against "snake literature?"

"but by bringing the topic to the definition of the word paradox, which you did, you basically blocked your own arguments."

No I didn't block anything. I gave my rationale as to why it isn't a Paradox Albino and then said you can call it what you want (more than once). So if you want to refer to that snake as a Billy Goat or Egg McMuffin or Paradox Albino - go right ahead.

I thought that the person who posted the original question deserved an answer based on comparing his snake to the existing morph known as "Paradox Albino." If you don't like my dictionary or are OK with other people redefining words, or are ignorant to other snakes out there with the established name of "Paradox Albino", then that's your problem.

Tim

>>"When you took it down to the definition of the word paradox the other arguments became a moot point"
>>Really? I pointed out the the definition of "unexplainable" was wrong.
>>
>>In my "Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language" it states the definition of paradox as "1. a statement that seems contradictory, absurd, etc. but may be true in fact. 2. a statement that is self-contradictory in fact and, hence, false. 3. a person or thing seeming inconsistant and full of contradictions."
>>
>>In the definition above the idea of contradiction is used in each of the various instances. "Unexplainable" is not. I'm not sure what you are arguing about, but it's pretty obvious to me that a paradox is a contradiction. Whether is "defies logic" or not is a "moot point."
>>
>>"You can jump up and down, use your typical condescending attitude"
>>Really? You think I'm jumping up and down? AND you think I'm condescending? Interesting.
>>
>>"and spout all the snake literature you want"
>>I don't regard the dictionary as snake literature. I did point out that a simple Google image search will show that the Paradox Albino is a specific morph, which that Corn Snake is not. I don't regard Google as "snake literature." Rather, I think of it as a commonly used general purpose search tool for the internet. Anyways, do you have something against "snake literature?"
>>
>>"but by bringing the topic to the definition of the word paradox, which you did, you basically blocked your own arguments."
>>
>>No I didn't block anything. I gave my rationale as to why it isn't a Paradox Albino and then said you can call it what you want (more than once). So if you want to refer to that snake as a Billy Goat or Egg McMuffin or Paradox Albino - go right ahead.
>>
>>I thought that the person who posted the original question deserved an answer based on comparing his snake to the existing morph known as "Paradox Albino." If you don't like my dictionary or are OK with other people redefining words, or are ignorant to other snakes out there with the established name of "Paradox Albino", then that's your problem.
>>
>>Tim

actually I never said paradox albino was a good or bad name for the snake. what I was arguing, because you brought it to that point, was the word paradox, by definition the word paradox could be used to describe the snake.
I never once said anything about calling it a paradox albino.
read everything I wrote.
I said the word paradox could be used to describe the snake.
I didn't say it should, I didn't say I would, I said by definition IT COULD.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes...No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)

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Nice try, Jimmy, but you're still wrong.

You pulled your "definition" from the wikipedia encyclopedia, which isn't a dictionary. Then you whined on and on about the "defintion" of the word, which means "contradictory" - something I've already stated repeatedly, yet you seem to be oblivious of.

Similar defintions of paradox meaning "contradictory" can be found online at The Free Dictionary:
www.thefreedictionary.com/paradox

and Dictionary.com:
dictionary.reference.com/browse/paradox

and Merriam-Webster:
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paradox

I'll tell you the same thing I told the other person spreading idiocracy in regards to misleading people as to the meaning of words:

You might want to invest in a dictionary. Paradox means "contradictory" not "unexplainable."

Tim

yep there you go again
condescending as hell
typical

not whining just stating a fact...good try on your part but when you read the whole of any of the definitions it still fits
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Corn snakes and rat snakes...No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)

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Hey eyeballz,A paradox is just an albino with some black on it somewhere-who cares.The snake you have is way effin cooler!Star-gazing is when they look straight up ( like at the stars )and is usually fatal.Yours seems like its gonna be fine { shoe-gazer }]just feed it alot.Great snake.Thanks for the nice pictures.jenni/

Stargazing in cornsnakes is different from stargazing in other reptiles.

In corns, it's an actual, heritable, recessive condition that affects balance. They eat, shed, grow, mate, and lay eggs just fine. It is not a contagious nor fatal disease.

Yes, as in the tandem "stargazing" gene that is inherited with many of the sunkissed corns.

As far as the "paradox" thing goes, most of the so-called "paradox" albino's in the hobby just happen to involve a bit of black pigment where there is white, but since it is basically still an anomaly that is not "supposed" to happen with these known genetic mutations, you could still casually consider that bizarre amel a "paradox" of sorts, even though it doesn't involve any black melanin on a white snake.

Whether or not it is an inheritable trait is an entirely different thing altogether though, and quite doubtful. As mentioned earlier, it could be a tandem defect that "piggy-backs" the bizarre neurological disorder it also has.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Oh,give me a brake."Stargazing" and "Paradox" (in this case) are just SLANG. Tossed around haphazardly by snake lovers.There is NOTHING scientific about either.thanks jenni/

Nevermind the "paradox" thing, that is just a word.

Yes, there DOES seem to be a bizarre tandem problem linked with many sunkissed corns...ask some of the well-known people that work with them.

Are you also saying that the leucistic Texas Rat gene also has nothing to do with why there are so many that have "bug-eyes"??..LOL!

Like I just made this all up out of the clear blue sky?

More like you give ME a break.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Fogive me,This should have been posted at the bottom.The "give me a brake" was aimed at the entire thread that turned so negative over a couple of words.I don't disagree with anything you wrote.Just that paradox or stargazing are not scientific terms,so folks should not argue about them.They are slang.Give me one reference to a real scientific paper wich uses either of these terms or admit I'm right.This guy just wanted to find out more about his special snake. thanks jenni/

"Give me one reference to a real scientific paper wich uses either of these terms"

No problem there, let's back-up the video here..LOL! I never once implied that either of these terms were anything remotely close to being "scientific" terms to begin with, because they definitely are not!. They are merely descriptive layman terms that breeders use to describe what they see. Most scientists/geneticists wouldn't know a cornsnake from an Anaconda most of the time anyway, let alone want to spend a kings fortune on studying exactly what causes the "stargazing" trait in sunkissed corns, or the patch of dark pigment on the side of an albino snake.

I mean, what would be the pay-off for any scientists to want to study any of it in the first place?.....a 1.2 trio of free sunkissed cornsnakes?..LOL!..

Anyway, yes, I think we can both agree on it not being an accepted scientific term..

I know a good bit about genetics and it's proper terminology, and "stargazing" and "paradox" albino aren't exactly the first terms that pop into my head when I discuss snake genetics to be quite honest.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

"Give me one reference to a real scientific paper wich uses either of these terms"

No problem there. But let's back-up the video a few frames here..LOL! I never once implied that either of these terms were anything remotely close to being "scientific" terms to begin with, because they most definitely are not!. They are merely descriptive layman terms that breeders use to describe what they see in certain snakes. Most scientists/geneticists wouldn't know a cornsnake from an Anaconda most of the time anyway, let alone want to spend a kings fortune on studying exactly what causes the "stargazing" trait in sunkissed corns, or the patch of dark pigment on the side of an albino snake.

I mean, what would be the pay-off for any scientists to want to study any of it in the first place?.....a 1.2 trio of free sunkissed cornsnakes?..LOL!..

Anyway, yes, I think we can both agree on them not being accepted scientific terms..

I know a good bit about genetics and it's proper terminology, and "stargazing" and "paradox" albino aren't exactly the first terms that pop into my head when I discuss snake genetics to be quite honest.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

D'OH!!, hmmmm, don't know how that happened..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Thanks DMong, Sorry about the mix-up,my fault-jenni/

>>Oh,give me a brake."Stargazing" and "Paradox" (in this case) are just SLANG. Tossed around haphazardly by snake lovers.There is NOTHING scientific about either.thanks jenni/

Jenni, I can assure you that there is indeed a defective gene in "some" Sunkissed Corns called "Stargazer". It is a recessive trait, that is an unwanted trait, but still it does exist. Right now it's only known to have popped up in the sunkissed line. In fact, it was Kathy Loves line that first developed it, if I'm not mistaken.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I hope your pretty new(used) snake does not have it.jenni/

>>I hope your pretty new(used) snake does not have it.jenni/

Well that's why I bought him. He's been used for many breeding projects by his former owner, and the gene nevr showed up. So though it's not a 100% safe deal. It's very unlikely that he does have it. Some people actuallt sell snakes with the gene to test any snake to have peace of mind. If I come across some I may do that in the future.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

http://www.cccorns.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8943

Here ya go.

Hey Shiari,I read that a few days ago ( I googled stargazing snake too ).Thanks for posting such nice pictures.jenni/

No google involved for me. I'm part of that forum, and because I have two hatchlings that do not have any testing done on their lines, stargazing is an important consideration for me. I want to produce the sunkissed phantoms that this pair has the genes for. I do NOT want to continue propagating a heritable syndrome, however. I'm hoping to get a homozygous gazer of each gender in 3 years to test these two.

Thanks again Shiari,Wow,I hope you can discover more about the stargazing thing.Sunkissed are my favorite.I outcrossed my sunkissed male to a supernice creamcicle(wich I think was a hybrid herself) and got some fantastic animals.They all sold fast,and most retained those nice head marks.I hope you take more pictures,you're a great photographer.jenni/

Creamsicles are hybrids, yes, so all the offspring were hybrids as well.

And I'm sure Connie would love to hear what you think of her photography. Those aren't my photos. I was just linking to that thread because of your original statement about stargazing. My photography skills leave much to be desired. XD

Well,No not really.A creamsicle is a cross between a corn snake-Elaphe guttata guttata and Emorys rat snake-Elaphe guttata emoryi.They are the same genera.Their range overlaps,and they are both subspecies of Elaphe guttata. When you mix them its called an intergrade.A hybrid is when you mix different genera.Like say a "jungle-corn" Elaphe guttata X Lampropeltis getula,different genera.Mixing a sunkissed and a creamsicle would NOT give you hybrid offspring.I was refering to the"Anery type Ugly" photos.jenni/

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hybrid

As corn snakes =/= emoryi rat snakes, they are hybrids. To label then as anything else will run the potential to cause a misunderstanding with the average individual and could result in those snakes or their offspring later being sold as pure corn snakes.

Average person? Average person=dumbass.Google/corn snake Wikipedia.They are not a hybrid.jenni/

"Average person=dumbass"

Well,...actually, that really is what it can equal in many cases..LOL!

I see it day in and day out in this hobby. And it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with just a cornsnake or an emoryi.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

I'm just an average person and should have used the term crossbreed instead of hybrid, when referring to my creamsicle.I'm not sure if she is a crossbreed line or an all corn line.Yes,you can get "creamsicles" with no emoryi.thanks jenni/

Intergrade snakes are simply two neighboring subspecies that would cross their genes where their natural ranges overlap. Now I don't consider "creamsicles" a horrible thing by any means in themselves, and they have been around for decades now. However, I have always considered two subspecies that are bred intentionally by someone more of a hybrid than a true intergrade, because they were man-made and not produced naturally. For instance a Yellow Ratsnake x Black Ratsnake in their northeastern ranges do indeed intergrade with one another and are commonly known as "greenish" Ratsnakes. But if someone were to breed a Black and a Yellow in captivity intentionally, I would not consider them the same thing at all, even though they might "look" virtually identical.

Furthermore the amel gene that gives "creamsicles" their noted creamy light orange coloration is from the crossing captive-bred amel cornsnakes into the emoryi subspecies, then back-bred to each other in order to be a 50-50 cross between the two. Since that time several decades ago, there are now MULTITUDES of different percentage of "creamsicle" floating around in the hobby. This is just a well-known fact.

Now anyone can(and very often does) call all sorts of different captive-bred snakes in the hobby many different things, and of course many are very wrongly named too. But accurately put, a "creamsicle" corn most DEFINITELY has emoryi geneflow in it's lineage, or else it simply isn't a creamsicle at all. They are called a "creamsicle" for that very reason. No matter how small a percentage of emoryi linege is in the particular amel equation, they are still creamsicles, and are man-made crosses.

You can have many creamsicles that look EXACTLY like typical amel corns too with much redder coloration, and that is also why "Shiari" said what he/she did in the earlier post about people being confused with what they are and what they have. I happen to agree with the statement that was made whole-heartedly.

The bottom line is that creamsicles are indeed the products of amel corn x emoryi cross, or they simply are not creamsicles anyway, and shouldn't be referred to as creamsicles if they are not amel crosses of the two subspecies...simple as that. Normal corn x normal emoryi are known in the hobby as "rootbeer" corns, even though they are not 100% cornsnake.

Now there are many normal corns as well as amel corns that are more of an orange/red coloration, but these can certainly be 100% genuine cornsnake, and have no geneflow from emoryi whatsoever.

If an amel corn has any emoryi blood in it whatsoever, it is indeed a "creamsicle". By the very same token, there are countless THOUSANDS of snakes out in the hobby mainstream that NOBODY knows what is in them, and never will. This is more and more common every single breeding season. Not just corns either......ALL SORTS of different types of snakes. It's a never-ending whell that will never stop turning as a matter of fact, and it is alway more and more important to know what you have and what you are looking at.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Agreed,I caught a beautiful green ratsnake on the train tracks in Virginia very green with stripes(intergrade)My creamsicle may be from RichZ and suposedly has no emoryi.And was advertised as such.I personally don't feel that emoryi blood is such a bad thing and may stave off the signs of inbreeding in many lines.I still think hybrid is not the correct term and crossbreed is. Thanks for taking the time to write so much.jenni/

You're welcome.

Yes, I have a few localty-specific wild-caught intergrade "greenish" Rats that came from a newly-discovered hypo morph. My friend captured the original morph male, as well as two greenish females. Here is a link to a post I made a while back about them if you are interested in checking it out.

But on the other hand, regarding keeping inbreeding recession to a minimum as you mentioned, I don't think an emoryi is the best choice to out-cross genuine corns to to keep vigor in the corn bloodlines when there are countless cornsnakes out there for them to be bred to. That would be sort of like wanting to restore a classic Corvette back to original condition and then bolting on Ford Pinto parts.
newly-discovered ratsnake morph

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Some may consider it like bolting corvette parts to a pinto.lol What about the RichZ line of pure corn creamsicles,have you seen these? thanks again jenni/

Are you trying to tell me that Rich Zuchowski(of all people)recently developed a line of 100% PURE cornsnake(guttatus) that HE himself coined the name "creamsicle" to before getting out of the business, and they DO NOT have ANY emoryi genetics in them whatsoever???..HAHAA!!

hmmm, .....that is pretty hard for me to believe. Why on earth would he name them (again) after a man-made amel cross that has already existed in this hobby for decades and cause absolute mass-confusion for the entire hobby?? Rich knows full-well that a creamsicle is not a pure cornsnake, and is an amel corn/emoryi cross.

Where did you get this story from anyway?. Are you sure you are not talking about some creamsicles crosses that he developed long, long ago?. I am getting more and more confused as I continue here..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

A creamsicle is ALWAYS going to have emoryi blood. There will never be a pure corn 'creamsicle' because that name is already used. It would be like calling my sister-in-law's jack russel/dachshund mix a 'golden retriever'. He's golden. He retrieves (kinda). But a golden retriever is already its own breed. Thus, no creamsicle is ever purely corn.

Hey Shiari,I think your right.Guess I'm not the first girl to get punked by a snake salesman.I just didn't expect it from a reputable breeder.He was supposedly only working with pure corns.That was quite a while ago,at an expo in southern fla.The hatchlings I sold were labled sunkissed creamsicles.I'm sure I have a picture of her somewhere.Thanks for not being mean like some people on here.jenni/

Agreed.

Yes, I have known this for decades. I was merely trying to layout some of the history to explain why this could not be so just as you did.

It's sort of like someone only being a "little bit" pregnant. Either you are, or you aren't.

To Jenni..........I wasn't trying to be mean to you, sometimes text makes it seem that way.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Let's face it, Doug: You're mean. First you referred to a woman on this forum a "dude" and now this. You really gotta work on your etiquette.

Tim

P.S. - Just kidding!

Yes, I really do have to work on my "horrible guy" persona.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Hey Doug,Just jokin-around.Thanks for writing.I'll post some pics up top soon.jenni/

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

nnnnn
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1.0 BP Nicodemus
0.4 Cal Kings 3 alb 1 het Dora Queen Ace Pearl
2.0 Alb Corn Bizaar Elixir
0.0.1 Rev Alb Nelsons Oden?

It isn't a snow if it doesn't also have the recessive gene anerythrism in it's genetic makeup..

It is simply a bizzare-looking amelanistic animal that is void of erythrin(red)pigmentation on the head.

This is a bloodred corn my friend owns that is also a genetic anomaly that is genetically unexplainable.

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Wow that's interesting! Has it been bred yet?
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Kent

1.1 Hypo (het lavender, striped) cornsnakes, 2010
1.2 Gray-banded kingsnakes, blairs phase, 2008
1.1 Oregon rubber boas, WC, 20??

He told me he did in fact breed it, but has not produced any aberrant offspring thus far. I can't remember if it was sib to sib breedings, or back to that particular parent, or even combinations of both right off the top of my head, but he hasn't produced any anomalies from it either way.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Niklas, be sure to keep us posted on how it does. It will be interesting to see its progression.
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Kent

1.1 Hypo (het lavender, striped) cornsnakes, 2010
1.2 Gray-banded kingsnakes, blairs phase, 2008
1.1 Oregon rubber boas, WC, 20??

It is definitely a paradox... wicked awesome snake Can honestly say that I have never seen anything like it... maybe you should email a couple big name breeders and see what they have to say?