Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i have been on the forums just over a year-i have a couple of monitors that i've raised successfully so far,with few incidence,so i am a beginner.Enough info to help a bit in the starter area.But i'm seeing people ask questions who may or maynot have researched-ask such things as diet temps etc,but i notice sometimes we don't correlate how different areas of husbandry compliment each other.The answers are simple but involve different aspects of husbandry-So if someone asks if you can feed your monitor just mice-the answer isn't just a yes or no,more factors are involved.Of course if people describe in detail their conditions diet temps etc in detail,a more detailed answer can be given.Sorry to make this long but there have been too many yes or no answer with too little detailed questions.

Its because monitors are not the easiest reptiles to raise and answering newbies questions takes several paragraphs. You get the same old questions over and over again. Imagine some of the people that have been on here for years and years answering those questions over and over again. Its frustrating to them to have to explain it thousands of times. Thats why they just do the yes no thing they are burned out.

As one of those old burnt out folks, i have a question. Where do these folks get this awful information? Is it petshops selling a kit, and caresheets that fits the kit and not the animal?

The truth is there is an endless stream of folks killing off their monitors.

I do disagree with you, monitors are the easist fastest growing reptiles I know of. There problems are more upon sexual maturity when reproductive complications cause lots and lots of problems.

So yea, where does this substandard information come from.

I mean, there are lots and lots of folks that are successful these days, yet more folks copy some odd caresheets.

I looked around the internet and found caresheets for all manner of things and some of them are insane, and many are written by folks that read some information the day before and rewrite it the next day.

I keep and breed african soft furred rats. When I first acquired them. I had four or five clutches under my belt, then I read some caresheets, well this one when on and on and was very interesting and all this diet stuff and clutches and nursing and on and on. Then at the end said, we hope to breed them some day. I almost fell off my chair. Why are they writing something, when they just started. I also commerically breed feeder mice. I looked up mouse care at several universities, and I was amazed how poor they were at breeding mice. I mean their care was nuts. Its like they have no brains, none what so ever.Oh well u made me rant again. Its all your fault. hahahahahahahaha

To Frank R. : A rant a day keeps frustration at bay!! (Not with everything, obviously)....
I think it`s as you say, they are written by people with 5 minutes "experience" who`ve got their info from another with the same ammount, it soon becomes "written in stone".
I don`t find it frustrating being asked very basic questions, just very sad, that soooo many people are still impulse buying these animals, before learning anything at all FIRST!?

I am completely appalled by the amount of videos uploaded to youtube about savannah monitor care. Actually, the majority of the videos of savs are either feeding-related (cool lizard eating something cute) or of some kid talking about his hatchling's set up. Most are in glass aquariums, just about none have deep substrate (except for a couple of posters here), and most don't have follow up videos. Which probably means the lizard lost its fun factor and was given away or worse, it died. Then there are the "experts" giving poor husbandry information and advice as well. It's really quite sad.

The fact is anyone can buy a monitor,that is something we can't control.But with advice we can make people think-Frank has done this for years,but still doesn't take shortcuts in his answers.I'm not sure if everyone got the gist of my question-

Yea, I did, there is no simple yes and no with varanids. Or hardly anything for that matter.

Which means, caresheets are not the route for varanids.

As I mention many many times, varanids are behavioral. Which means, with them its as much or more about, behavioral stimulus as it is about supporting conditions.

This picture is a kingsnake nest. When allowed or supported, kingsnakes will lay their eggs a day or two after their pre-egglaying shed. As you can see, the nest has purpose and has a design. Its like they do in nature. Well, with kingsnakes you get the same thing. After decades. People even experts do not understand that snakes NEST. not drop eggs in a box.

The difference is, poor nesting has a much lower death rate with kingsnakes, then it does with monitors.

The difference is, poor nesting has a much lower death rate with kingsnakes, then it does with monitors.

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I don't know why you think monitors are easy to keep? They are easy for people who know what they are doing but the average joe who is just starting out... no they are not easy.

I would think, like you seem to be implying snakes would be much easier.

As far as caresheets there is very little written on having appropriate soil conditions for monitors for their nesting. There are some caresheets that say to use vermiculite mixed with soil and sand. I don't know about the vermiculite.... that stuff can cause intestinal problems from what I hear.

I understood your question, I was just replying to Frank's reply, which was going in a slightly different direction. As a newbie myself, I don't feel completely comfortable answering the questions of others. I can only give details on my own practices which are based on research and common sense. I guess I am more comfortable asking the questions.

The problem, I believe, with most people who impulse buy is that they want instant answers. It took them two seconds to buy the monitor, why does it take so long to have such an easy question answered? Here on the forums, aren't we supposed to know everything after all? Society caters to us, life is too convenient. It's all about instant gratification. I mean, I could click any of the links above, click on any animal I want in my price range, and in two days be handling some snake from Indonesia that I'd never even heard of.

To ask someone to then do work and answer a bunch of "irrelevant" questions, who do you think you are? Of course, I'm being facetious, but that's how it works. The issue is that people don't make a connection between this area of husbandry and that area of husbandry. They don't think on a holistic scale.

When someone asks why their monitor is having a hard time shedding and you turn around and say, "Please describe your set up including type of enclosure, substrate, and temp/humidity readings," they're probably wondering why you didn't just tell them to mist/soak the lizard for this much time that many times a day. I guess the logic here is that if the lizard is having a hard time shedding, it's too dry, and you "fix" dry by adding water. But that's how people think, fix the symptoms and not the problems.

And with that said, to be a little more on topic, you have beginners whose thinking resembles the type of thinking described above, then you have experienced keepers who KNOW that monitor husbandry needs to be thought of on a holistic scale, but don't necessarily know how to get the point across. It's sort of like two different languages spoken, and unless the beginners continue to ask questions (deterred by the nitpicking of others) and experienced keepers continue to patiently answer "silly" questions, no one will ever be on the same page.

Parts of this reply is excellent. the fixing problems instead of preventing them is KEY. The pet supply trade is based on this. If we prevent them, they go out of business.

About not knowing how to explain whats needed, i am not so sure about that. If I was talking to a person, one person. AND that person was talking to me, There would be no problem. But somehow on forums, it does not work that way.

People tend to average the responses they recieve. Which is not how it works. For instance the UV litebulb deal. With high basking temps, UV bulbs are not needed. With lower basking temps, they are needed. But the question normally is, ARE THEY NEEDED, the answer is, no or yes, or maybe, depending on the conditions supplied. I answer no, and the reason is, all wild monitors are exposed and use HIGH basking temps, so its our task to duplicate that as normal. Not duplicate low temps where UV bulbs and many other bandaids are needed. Or worse, average temps.

Thanks

You must first ask a question before someone can answer it. You did not ask a question in the original post.

it was more a statement than a question.our job is to show that different aspects of husbandry combined effect the outcome.

I follow the forums here; but very rarely post. I feel that this one is a post I would like to respond to. Indeed, newbies come because, well that's kind of what internet forums were created for--to spread information between folks who share similar interests. Then you get the people who have answers, and are frankly getting tired of giving them. Happens. I have a modest proposal for the moderators. Why not, at least on the active boards, like this one; have stickys of frequently asked questions right at the top, super easy to access. Then, if something above does not make sense, they can ask away. Would be a simple matter of finding old posts and making them stickies. How about it mods?

I think this is a good idea, but with so many different opinions out there I think coming to a consensus would be difficult. I believe the purpose of the forum is to exchange ideas and gather a variety of information from different sources in order to come to your own conclusion about what's right for your situation.

If there were a sticky that people referred to, there would also exist naysayers that dispute the sticky. Like, for instance, with diet. Some people will say that monitors only need mice and nothing else under certain conditions, some people will say roaches, some people will say dog food or ground turkey, some people will say a varied diet of this and that and that. So what goes in the sticky?

this is a forum direct people to good sources of information there are no stupid questions-if you're tired of the same old questions,this probably isn't for you or don't answer them.the odds most will fail, but not all-give people the benefit of the doubt-someone will benefit

Hey there.

I'm not quite sure how this got directed at me, but I agree with you. Educating and sharing information is the only way to help these animals in captivity (and in the wild). In fact, educating is what I do for a living (except I work with people and dogs). If I got tired of the same old questions, I'd be in a different profession. I like forums because THERE IS a difference of opinion. I constantly pick up new information because someone, in another part of the world, works differently than I do. I read about other peoples' methods that lead to success and use my own judgement to combine the information, remove that which I deem useless, and create my own method.

>>I have a modest proposal for the moderators. Why not, at least on the active boards, like this one; have stickys of frequently asked questions right at the top, super easy to access. Then, if something above does not make sense, they can ask away. Would be a simple matter of finding old posts and making them stickies. How about it mods?>>
I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to do that, BUT and this is a BIG BIG butt!

To do that would require the general agreement of our members here on the care information and well, some days I dont think I could get everyone to agree that it was wednesday.

If someone would like to put a few beginner type of posts together and get the majority of the forum to approve them, I would be happy to sticky them.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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I'm sure there can be a few thing that can be generally agreed on, but we'll cross that bridge when it comes.

Husbandry of non-domesticated animals is never perfectly straight foreward. Certain dog breeds where literally CREATED to live one way or another. Reptiles weren't made to be pets, they were meant to be wild, so we must provide the proper microhabitat that the specific monitor species (and really any herp for that matter) is native to and has evolved to survive in. Nothing extremely complicated at all.......for most people anyways.

But I may have a theroy of why Frank believes its simple to keep monitors. He has had the amazing opportunity to keep and breed literally thosands of reptiles for quite a while, probably longer than I've been alive! He's even traveled to research wild monitors in they're natural enviroment.

But Frank mentions "reading the animals" quite a bit, and for good reason, it's what just about every reptile care sheet is based off of! Reading the animals is simply noticing certain habits of the animals when normal and healthy. When they become sick, gravid, etc., they act differently in response to whatever is happening. Even humans act differently when we're upset, excited, sick, and when women are gravid......sorry, pregnant hahahaha. Sorry, couldn't help myself on that one. Instead of saying "Dude, I ain't feeling too great" or something like that, they act a different way than usual.

As example, most egg laying reptiles that construct burrows to lay eggs in become almost frantic to find a good nesting spot. They dig around to find the spot thats just right. I've had a pair of ornate box turtles a few years back that had bred. I never saw mating, but I noticed my female digging constantly in different spots in the pen. Sure enough, a few months later, I had the pleasure of finding the cutest little box turtles trotting around in their pen.

There are so many examples of reading animals and I'm sure just about everyone here has seen it at least a few times in their reptiles, but simply didn't notice it or pay much mind to it. It's a skill that can prove to be invaluable to have, but might take some practice for some people. Spend as much time as you can observing your animals now, it might just help them in the future.

Thanks!
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Jason