Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Everyone that's not anyone wants to know the truth about female Deserts, well here it is. They do not grow or breed. Female Deserts grow up to by skinny animals with no weight to them. They look like a large Rat snake. Sure their may be a few that get large(very very few), but 99 out of 100 of them are not going to grow like your normal Ball Python.

Now I'm sure I'm going to get grief over this. There will be the people who come to the defense of the larger breeders and that's very understandable, but you will only look foolish if you do. I have seen over 100 female yearling to adult Deserts and they are basically garbage as far as breeding goes. This is why the larger producers of this morph sell all the great combo females. They know they won't breed.

I will say this in some peoples defense. There are a couple lines of them. One line MAY be different, but I don't think so. I have seen them from both main lines(only a few from one) and both lines grow to be skinny worms.

The truth needed to come out and now you have it. Take it how you'd like, but remember. You have been warned. Good luck.

If this thread somehow magically disappears. That should tell you all you need to know. The larger breeders with "pull" around here used their power to get it removed. Smaller breeders need to know before they waste their cash.

I have produced from a desert female..... Truth
My name is Mike Powell of Ca truth...
One question for mr truth, why be a nameless hero?

Thanks Mike for putting an end to the stupidity! Desert females can, and have, produced viable offspring. How many of these kinds of rediculous rumors have there been in this industry? Let's move on... next?

Mike,

That is great news!!

What are the specifics? How many viable eggs? Slugs? How are the offspring doing? Any pics?
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Best regards,
AlanColesReptiles

2 slugs, 4 eggs, 4 hatched. Working on more this year. I can promise pics when/if I get lucky this year. I am sure that the truth will not believe, as anyone can wrap any female around a clutch. I just cant wait to find out who the truth is...... I'm sure he is busy reading Charlies twitter page getting his facts straight.

This is the answer I think everyone wanted to hear

I look forward to more news on this project and appreciate your answer!!

Again, Thank you and I wish you the best this season!
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Best regards,
AlanColesReptiles

Is that once/if I give it there will be no question that what I speak is true. You may not/do not want me to answer.

Where are your pics as proof? Even if you did. THAT's one clutch. There may be less than 10 total lousy small clutches yet hundreds of females that get 1000 to 1500 grams and look like fat King snakes.

Time is going to answer this, so all you people that defend the female Deserts will be remembered. So will I as the speaker of THE TRUTH.

"Is that once/if I give it there will be no question that what I speak is true."

....IF what you speak is true than why would you not want to give your name and erase any doubt regarding your claim?

Personally, I don't have a horse in this race as I don't have any/plan to get any Deserts. It does strike me as curious, though, that you refuse to give your identity.

Rob

Give a name and there will be pay back. Lies just as revenge for costing people money.

If I sound and seem like a liar because I have yet to reveal who I am, then so be it. I've warned everyone and people can decide for themselves.

Everyone remember this thread though. I am 100% sure I will be vindicated.

Of course when the 1 in 100 female Desert breeds there will be 1000 pics trying to prove me wrong, but we'll never see the other 99 females that didn't produce.

Bang bang bang!

Kerpow!
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

Nice try Robyn, but WRONG. However, if he told me what I told all of you, I would believe him.

Let's see. I know Pete. I know Stan. I know who Big Guns is. I know you. I know all about Desert females. Who could I be?

Robyn, I do believe that you think you are right about them, because it would be foolish to argue this if you knew different.

LOL.I know Pete , I know Big Gunns, I know Stan>? wait...I don't personally know Stan....I know a crapper load of breeders / and or they know me either by name or at least when we all are at shows....

so you could be me?...or anyone...?....

....don't matter...Deserts are cool....and if females are cheaper than males...they'll sell.......

......send me mine!
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........JY

"Give a name and there will be pay back. Lies just as revenge for costing people money."

Sounds like you know what your talking about. Perhaps this thread is nothing more then revenge? Time will tell indeed. Too bad none of us can know who "the truth" is to thank him down the road for all this valuable information he's so generous to offer hidden behind the internet.. Our unsung hero he is! "the truth"

That very well may be and if that is the way this "business" is run than I don't want to know.

I will say this, though: I may not post a lot and may not have produced thousands of animals but I have been in this hobby for a long time and done business with a lot of folks. Some good. Some bad. Just like any business. With that in mind I would think that if your reputation was well enough established you could withstand the occassional "lies just as revenge" since in the end "the truth" generally does win out.

As it stands now, since I don't know who you are, I am only left hoping that I have never done business with you in the past and hopefully won't in the future.

Rob

>>Give a name and there will be pay back. Lies just as revenge for costing people money.
>>
>>If I sound and seem like a liar because I have yet to reveal who I am, then so be it. I've warned everyone and people can decide for themselves.
>>
>>Everyone remember this thread though. I am 100% sure I will be vindicated.
>>
>>Of course when the 1 in 100 female Desert breeds there will be 1000 pics trying to prove me wrong, but we'll never see the other 99 females that didn't produce.

Spoken like a champ. I have been doing this forever too. I might have bashed a little to hard in my last post but come on. This person is rude and obviously on a rampage of bashing. Its not fair to PE as they have way beyond been a part of the reptile community. I as well hope to never do business with this person.

Really, why would you ever want to do business with someone who tells you the truth?

Hey TheTruth,

This has absolutely nothing to do with desert females. I think what you don't understand is that... if you are speaking the truth and you ABSOLUTELY believe it, you will stake your name on it.

It's like when people say they'll bet on something... (I bet I can drink that bottle of hot sauce or I bet the Raiders are going to win the superbowl)... most of the time when you call them out like hey I would put $20 on it, they back off. Why? ... because they don't absolutely believe it so they won't risk $20 on it. In your case, you put the claim out there that desert females won't breed but when people call you out, you back off but INSIST that the claim is true. See where the problem is?

Galileo claimed that the earth went around the sun in a time when that was considered heresy. In the face of death and whatever horrors were presented, he remained true to his claim. He had proof in the form of calculations, documents, and all that mathy stuff. Never once did he back down. I'm not comparing you to Galileo. I'm trying to illustrate that a man who believes in the truth will suffer the wrath of whatever will be. Now, I would consider Galileo a fool because his life was on the line... for you, it just doesn't make sense. If the repercussions of you standing by your truth is that you'll lose income, GET a job. If the repercussions are of you being shunned by the snake breeding community, GET over it. You can't tell me that if all the breeders/enthusiasts, big or small, all decide to turn their back on you that you can't go on with life.

In the words of Russell Peters..."Be a MAN..."

I know I stated somewhere in this thing why I stayed anonymous. It seems clear that it was the right decision on my part.

"Give a name and there will be pay back. Lies just as revenge for costing people money."

If the payback/lies costs you money... get a job... if the payback/lies costs you to lose face... walk away...(there is a life outside of the snake breeding community... shocking!!!)

I don't think you understood anything I wrote in my post. It's just ironic that you are "truthful" but not when it comes to the truth of who you are. You, my friend, have successfully killed your own argument.

You keep saying that the truth will vindicate you but I don't think you know what vindicate means. You can't be vindicated if no one can point a finger at you in the first place... well because no one knows who you are!

PE and others have put their name on the line already by proving what you're claiming is false. They did it with pictures, with words and with name. Do you need it with blood as well? Since they've worked so hard in building a good rep... (as you can tell by all the people who are calling you out)... you think they would really lie to make a few bucks now and risk losing their future income?

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0.0.1 1983 boyfriend
1.0 2007 pug

I am very much aware what vindicated means and name or no name. I will be vindicated.

I agree with your posts message, but in the interest of historical accuracy I want to point out that Galileo did recant under the threats of the Inquisition (and even after recanting spent the rest of his life on house arrest, with all of his works banned).

hahah Thanks!... I keep forgetting that he did...

I had a teacher who beat it into my head that although he wrote something on a piece of paper he never stopped in finding/believing the truth... as his continued studies during his house arrest has shown.
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0.0.1 1983 boyfriend
1.0 2007 pug

nm

I'm not really surprised that there is another morph with some negative side effects to it. I'd still be interested in purchasing one, albeit not at a breeder-animal price.

Does anyone have images of these ratsnake-like yearly female Deserts? I don't ask because I disbelieve, but because I would like to see what that looks like.
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.1 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 Whitesided P. catenifer sayi, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

You won't be able to tell much from a pic. I'm sure some people will post theirs with a rat in it to try and disprove what I said. You need to see and hold them in person. They look like a ball that hasn't been fed much, but has grown. They do have great muscle tone though. They are just skinny and obviously(say this because nobody really has in years) don't breed.

I don't know if we produce the MOST Deserts on the planet, but we certainly do very well with them, even with a very young collection.

But still, I HAVEN'T seen 100 Deserts grow to adults. That is a lot of animals. You must be VERY well connected Mr. Troll, I mean Mr. Truth.

Why so cowardly with the name? That is just dumb.

Thin like ratsnakes? I have never seen that either, not from any PE animals. You have some Charlie Sheen hyperbole going for you. But apparently that is "how you roll".

I posted these pics of TWO YEAR OLD Desert females a few months ago. One "regular" Desert female at 1900 grams, one combo (Pastel Tiger) female at 1750 grams. And those are at two years old. Produced here at PE. That isn't "ratsnake thin" growth, that is fantastic growth.

We haven't gotten good eggs from a Desert female yet, but these females (and others) are breeding now, and a number of other breeders are getting work done now. But the project is very young. I don't see the need for finger wagging at not getting eggs in three years from a Ball python. Big whoop. And certainly not your nonsense hyperbolic anonymous ranting.

As for posts being removed, it isn't some "power conspiracy", but rather "you're a dum dum". Sucks to be you, apparently...

More female pics coming soon, Chad is taking them now.

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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

I forgot to mention that one of our customers hatched eggs from a Desert female clutch. He bred it to "other" males, so no Desert x Desert peek for a Super, but his Desert female bred, laid and hatched.
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

bang PRO 1 truth 0

great animals great guys and gals over there!
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www.myspace.com/apabana

Why have your customers produced and not you?

Look Robyn. Maybe you really don't know, but I'm telling you 100% for a fact. Female Deserts are junk as far as breeding goes. If you're lucky you may get 1 in 100 to go with a lousy clutch. Bad odds in my book.

Those are some good looking females. Certainly not ratsnakes. I really like the Pastel Tiger. I hope they prove out for you. I'd also love to see a Super Desert someday!
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.1 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 Whitesided P. catenifer sayi, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

You should know the only other person that could have close to that amount of animals. I've seen his collection of fat King snakes.

Since you don't know exactly who this is, I will let the troll comment slide, but I do have to say this Robyn. What are you going to say to everyone when the truth is finally revealed? I really hope for your sake that your, I mean Stan Chiras' line since you bought his collection and got all these animals is different than the other line.

Like I said Robyn. You're a good guy, but if your line is not different, and I don't believe it is, this is wrong.

As you can see Robyn. I know just a little more than your average troll.

Look Mr. Vague Super Spy Secret guy...

A troll is someone that trolls on an internet forum looking to stir up nonsense, usually anonymously. That's you.

I thought they were skinny kingsnakes? Now they are fat kingsnakes? This is just dumb.

Mud Sling Jones, I don't know who you are, nor do I think it matters much. But apparently it is important to YOU. So ok, out with it, who are you?

Apparently a friend of Pete Kahl's? Awesome, I am sure he is going to LOVE that his "good friend" is tying his name to an online bash fest. Even if his "good friend" is the only one doing the bashing.

You have made claims about the Deserts. Those have already been disproven. The only one that hasn't put up a positive response is your "good friend" Pete Kahl. I am sure he will love that you have put him in that position as well. Essentially you are here bashing Pete's animals. That oughta be awesome for Pete's sales. You are quite the helper!

How about this, I will send Pete a heads up on this thread. I am sure it will be great for your "friendship".

If you have some crappy animals in your collection you want to disparage, go ahead. If you are such great friends with Pete and want to talk about crappy animals in "Pete's" collection that you have seen first hand, well, that is between you and Pete. But leave the rest of us out of it, you wasted too much of PE time yesterday having Chad do a bunch of new pics of great looking adult Desert females that you claimed could never exist...
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

I never mentioned Pete Kahls name once. You did. I never said I was friends with him either. I suppose you wanted to make sure everyone knew both lines. Very sneaky on your part.

Like I said Robyn. The truth will come out when more people have adult Deserts. I am sorry that this hurts your project, but people really do need to know.

This thread clearly has caused a lot of anger in you and I understand it, but that does not make it any less true. What I said is true and time will be the only thing that proves it. That is unless some other big breeders want to talk.

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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

We can let the other forum readers decide on that.

No need for us to go into some stupid internet forum war. I know I'll be vindicated in the future. I can sleep better knowing I have told what I know. Good luck with your Deserts this year. Hopefully you can get a good clutch.

"The Truth?" You make these claims yet omit your identity? You claim to have seen over 100 desert females yet feel the need to hide. So lets hear the "truth" Do you own these 100 skinny desert females you speak of? If so then prove it. If not then who? Your already hiding so why not tell us who was kind enough to show you 100 skinny desert females? If you can't produce fact that can be verified then your post is nothing more then weak gossip..

If you have something to lose by calling me out, I would suggest you stop doing it.

Nope! Nothing to loose at all and I'm hard pressed to take any suggestions from a coward online thanks though!

Dear "The Truth",

First of all, I just want to say that I feel that those are some pretty strong allegations, and it would be nice if you had the courage to give your name and take responsibility for what you have said. Information presented without a known source tends to lose all credibility, and also makes one wonder what the motivation behind its presentation might be. Does this person hold a grudge and wish to cause damage to someone? On the other hand, there are some very credible breeders working hard on Desert projects. I find it difficult to believe that there is a major conspiracy at work here.

My own limited personal experience with this project is as follows: I produced over fifty Deserts and Desert combos in 2010. Of those, I have held back over twenty Desert and Desert combo females for my own future breeding stock. Most of these girls are now in the 200 to 300 gram range. Two of these girls have slowed on food intake recently, the rest are feeding twice per week like champs. I would say that they, as a whole, they are at least as good of feeders as any other balls of similar age in my collection. They are growing well, and are fat and healthy.
If you are indeed privy to some real information regarding a failure of Desert females to thrive, and not just performing some random act of terrorism, please have the courage to come forth and give us some real facts. Your name would be a great start, and then some specifics as to where you encountered the "over 100 female yearling to adult Deserts" would be very helpful.

Regards,
Dan Wolfe

I'll say this: I know who Chad and Robyn are, never have spoken to Robyn and had one phone conversation w/Chad while he was at Colorado! I also have never purchased anything from them! That being said, with as specialized as this hobby/business is, it would be pretty friggin' irresponsible and stupid for these guys or anybody for that matter, to just let these things go out into the reptile community knowing that they can't grow or reproduce! That's just business and reputation suicide! On that alone, I'd have to seriously doubt these allegations!

I'm sorry, there is no grudge here. As a matter of fact I very much like the two main producers, but I'm sick of seeing all these questions and not giving out the truth about Desert females. People are spending good money on pet Desert females.

Good luck with your holdbacks Dan. I really do mean that. You're gonna need all the luck you can get to produce from them.

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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

4 few weeks ago i bought a 1300 gram desert pinstripe female. She's nicely plump, super healthy in every way, and looks just like any other healthy female ball python.

she was raised as a live eater - i ONLY do frozen thawed. i bought her anyway knowing i'd lose 6 months or so till i got her take a heated thawed rat. of course i tried her anyway on my feeding day, two days later and she slammed that thawed rat like she had never seen food. and she's done it ever week since. large rats.

i dont know about you, coward who goes by no name, but i seem to have me an easy going fat ole desert female on my hands.

Maybe you will get lucky. Wonder why it was sold though.

The Troll-

It's tough to find the right place to start to rebut the complete load of crap you just posted. But I'll try
Please take a look at the photos below. After reading your post, I grabbed a camera and did a few quick shots. All the photos are from today, just a few minutes ago.

If I "knew" (as you claim) that Desert females don't breed why would I "waste" a Desert Pin male breeding one? I'm doing this pairing because I'm hoping to make Super Desert Pins! The female Desert in this photo was 1775 grams as of yesterday.

The Desert Spider female below is 1725 grams. I just weighed my largest 12 year old Mandarin ratsnake and it was only 1100 grams. The Desert Spider is an 08 baby. So they are clearly not ratsnake sized.

The Desert female below is a 08 baby as well. As you can see she is 1920 grams. Doesn't look like a "large rat snake" to me. How about you, Troll?

This last photo is of a cage tags from one of our 09 female Deserts. The purple sticky to the left has her weight as of 2/9/11.

Ok, I think I just showed very clearly that Desert females do grow. The first photo shows that they do copulate.
But the million dollar question is....can Desert females lay good eggs? We have heard from a reliable source that a PE customer hatched two clutches from Desert girls last year. I think I will have a very strong chance to hatch a clutch this breeding season. I have gotten slugs in the past from a Desert girl but these were undersized girls that where not raised here at PE but were raised by another breeder under a very different system. Continued in new post....

The girls I'm working on this year are 1750 grams or more and are all born and raised at PE. I believe that makes a difference. Some of the Deserts males and females were small for their age when we picked up the group. That was when the Deserts are "smaller" thought got started. Since than we have raised up babies born here under our conditions and we see no difference in baby size, yearling size and now that the stock raised here is two or three years old, adult size. Feeding, body "feel", shedding, etc are all the same as any other snake in our collection.
I hope this year or next we see a Super Desert. But it is far too early to make such strong statements like Desert females don't breed.
By the way, I think I know who "The Truth" is......sure would be nice if you would tell everyone who you are and where you saw and touched 100 Desert females! Truth doesn't need to hide!

I know the origin of the deserts and find it hard to believe that anyone has 100 females and has had them long enough to become adults.I also feel Chad is one of the more down to earth large breeders and would not be involved in anything like this IF it were true.

Chad,

Thank you for all the desert info!

I am hoping you will respond to the question I asked Robyn in his last post a few months ago concerning the clutch one of your customers produced from a desert female.

What was the outcome specifics? How many viable eggs? Slugs? How are the offspring doing? Any pictures?
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Best regards,
AlanColesReptiles

bang 2 for pro and -2 for truth get a life dude!!!!!'
'all I can say is awesome snakes chad! and thats the TRUTH
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www.myspace.com/apabana

Chad, I can understand why you would be mad at this thread. You have a lot to lose. Maybe you guys really believe what you say. I now believe that you do, but unless Stans/your line is different(I have seen both though and don't believe it is), you will be apologizing to a lot of people in the near future.

Chad, I can honestly say that I'm not at all happy about this truth either.

The more things change - the more they stay the same.

Since I am no longer breeding I have an empty hatchling rack that awaits all those worthless micro desert girls you breeders don't want / can't use - I'll even pay the shipping.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

nihil facimus sed id bene facimus

I have a really nice female desert here that I got from my friend Marc Bailey, one of the nicest deserts I have seen period, better looking than alot of the Tigers out there actually.. I admit she kicked off feed for me about 6 weeks back and is still only around 800 or so grms. My thought is that I really don't care if it takes till she is 4 yrs old to be up to size as I have had that happpen alot anyway and actually would rather grow her slow than push hard and breed her young any day of the week! She'll be paired up with a Super Mystic Fire , Pastel Super Stripe or some sort of powerhouse male in due time. So once she's ready she'll be more than a good investment in my mind thank you!

Anthony McCain
McCain Reptiles

I bought my Desert Female in 2007. She is presently at 1800 grams in weight and has been breeding well for me this year. I could have bred her last year when she was at 1450 grams in weight but decided to hold out another year just to be on the safe side. For a comparison my first Het for Pied Female was only 1200 grams in weight at the same age (four years) and I bred her at that size any way. The Desert is way beyond size wise and I am looking forward to getting a nice clutch from her this year. Here is a picture of her breeding a Superstripe.

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Albey Scholl
Albeys Too Cool Reptiles
Email Me

How bout some truth who are you and some evidence? Your probably the loser who stole from Pete and got fired !

Good luck on that Albey! BTW wasn't Pete's original Desert a Female that started his line anyway, could be wrong but I don't think I am!

Anthony McCain
McCain Reptiles

Why don't you all ask him whether he EVER got a good clutch from a female Desert? Notice the word EVER.

Good clutch is not an egg or two that may or may not hatch.

Hmm, strange, 100 Female Deserts alone in a collection would be hard to feed I understand why they are small.
Now we have 4 Desert and Desert Combos over here right now. Male is a 2010 and at 700+ Grams, 1 2010 Female Desert at 505 grams, 1 2009 Desert Spider Girl at 1000 Grams and a 2009 Desert Yellowbelly at 700+ Grams. Far from tiny to me, heres a pic of the Desert Spider and Desert. We don't have pics of the Desert YB as she is in Shed.

We have friends who have hatched eggs from Deserts, have Deserts breeding now, and thats not including PE. We have been to Chad's place 2 times, they open any cage when we say "oh I want to see that", nice big healthy female deserts and desert combos. Not sure on your source, Pete Kahl seems like the only other guy capable of having 100+ female Deserts at that size.

Show some pics so we can see "The Truth"
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Sloan Reptiles
www.sloanreptiles.net

Great animals!

I was wondering if you have specifics on your friend's clutches. Number of viable eggs? Slugs? How are the offspring doing? Any pics?

It seems that nobody will answer these questions....???...
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Best regards,
AlanColesReptiles

Mike was actually the one we were talking about, so thats up to him. I now he had enough eggs to hit on the triple! Not sure if he wants it shared of what it was though, so I leave that to him!
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Sloan Reptiles
www.sloanreptiles.net

Thanks for the reply! At least someone will explain something

triple is top secret...???...okay.... I guess.... That still doesn't have anything to do with my questions IMO. my question wasn't related to the pairing. My question is directed toward viablity.....

Maybe someone will step to the plate...... Mike???
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Best regards,
AlanColesReptiles

Like I said it's up to him!
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Sloan Reptiles
www.sloanreptiles.net

Hence, Mike???

And again, thank you!
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Best regards,
AlanColesReptiles

Isn't it obvious.

Look, I can see why people would call me out on this. You can believe who you want people. You can believe this nameless person, or you can believe all the people with thousands of dollars to lose. You decide.

I got my answer, look at Mike Powell's post (biggerdigger). He is a busy man and answered when I asked.

Mike posted his results on viability here for all to see.

Unless your name is Pete Kahl your ramblings mean nothing here.
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Best regards,
AlanColesReptiles

You have one clutch that may or may not exist. Look, if you're satisfied that a female Desert is a good investment, then by all means go out and buy one. Just don't cry a few years from now please. I warned you.

Np

Everyone else that is ignorant to the facts.

Np

Time will tell. I hope you'll be man enough to say your sorry in the future.

...you are blind "Mr. T"
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Best regards,
AlanColesReptiles

Not saying female deserts are one way or the other as I have no proof or experience, or it could just be a coincidence that you put them up for sale recently, but it does cause a suspicion that the only desert females you have you're suddenly trying to sell them?

Luke Martin

That is a very valid point!

I want to be open minded about this topic but a lot of things just don't add up!

Your question is just as valid as "who is "the truth"? Along with many other questions in this thread.

I'm on the fence with this whole topic and will continue to be for some time. Lots of unanswered questions surrounding this and any continuation will just lead to more frustration.

>>Not saying female deserts are one way or the other as I have no proof or experience, or it could just be a coincidence that you put them up for sale recently, but it does cause a suspicion that the only desert females you have you're suddenly trying to sell them?
>>
>>Luke Martin
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Best regards,
AlanColesReptiles

It's not me that's for sure.

"the truth" would know.

I thought we might be asked that question, we have a friend moving out of country who needs to unload snakes. If we had the cash to buy the girls we would, but otherwise we are paying off other animals that will be staying from the collection. Trust me if we could afford to keep them they wouldn't be moving anywhere.
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Sloan Reptiles
www.sloanreptiles.net

Now I see who is trying to sell them. This thread is so long I've jumped around.

Who is this friend Sloan reptiles may I ask? I think I can ask, but you have no need to answer obviously.

It seems Luke may have dug something up I didn't know. That is very interesting Luke. Wonder why he's selling them and so upset about this.

An answer please.

"The truth"
I really don't think it is any of your businees asking why they are for sale, what if we had a family emergency and had to make a quick sale? Not saying that we do but it really shouldn't be any of your business. We already explained it to Luke, we can't keep all of them. But we have now decided that we aren't going to sell them just to prove you wrong so you won't be seeing them on Kingsnake ever again. We aren't the ones hiding and not saying who we are, we are being 100% honest and you can ask anyone how truthful we are. Truthful people don't hide behind fake names. Our friend has already put his name out there, it's Mike Powell. Someone who has been completely honest with us and told us he has gotten eggs from Deserts females WAY before this thread was started, that's gotta tell you something.
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Sloan Reptiles
www.sloanreptiles.net

New thread for this.

1.) Don't put all your money in one snake for those of you just starting out in this hobby/business.

2.) If you have the money and want a Desert female, it is really your call. There are no guarantees with Mother Nature but this buzz has been rampant for about a year so you are bound to see a female on eggs this year just like you did with a Caramel female last year.

3.) If you feel the risk is too great for a female search out a male. Best of luck because I have only seen the price go higher over the last two years and if it is true the price of males will only rise because of what keeps being produced with them. I like the thought of the price going higher to keep people buzzing about them.

4.) Easy to post with no tangible evidence. Either post pics of these large groups of overly skinny girls or someone will be probably be posting pics of one of these girls on eggs soon.

5.) Banana males don't ever have successful lock so sell me your really cheap.

please send me or have someone send me a little one....a 2010 would be perfect...if it grows well and breeds I'll give you back kids...>???....aaaah there's a deal?....

send me 2? 3?.....they are worthless....right..>?....

...seems impossible.....

I'll buy a male....LOL
.
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........JY

I tried to send you a free Temp Gun with no response, I am not about to send a free Desert female so it can sit lonely on your door step!

Well, I guess it could be friends with the Temp Gun...
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

I have a temp gun...well...I did...it may have disapeared...

I don't need handouts brother...I pay my way and breed my way to a better collection....trust me...I get better stuff all the time...I just wish I had more room to keep all the old stuff....I miss some of them....

......Thanxx....and your desert females are too fat anyways.....LOL
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.
.
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........JY

I knew it, so dang critical!

Chad thinks it is Newt Gingrich.
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

T,
You sound like a passionate and reasonably intelligent person. Suppose that we ignore the fact that we don't even know who you are, and entertain the notion that you are speaking honestly. Allow me to provide you with a set of alternate conclusions based upon your alleged observations.

You said that these skinny females you observed were all from one of the two known Desert lines. It also seems obvious that you are not talking about the Pro Exotics/Chiras line. From the many responses you received from those of us having fat and healthy Desert females, it is also clear that the scenario you describe is an isolated event, one that if we are to believe you, is happening in one population of one line if Desert.

There are many things that could cause skinny snakes, some genetic, some not. From the non genetic side: Firstly, they must be provided with sufficient food to maintain good health. Secondly, conditions within the snakes environment must be kept within certain general parameters or the snakes will not thrive. Then, there is always the possibility of contagious disease. Failure to adequately address any of these issues would eventually lead to unhealthy/skinny animals. And yes, skinny females rarely reproduce. When they do, the result is a very small clutch with a high probability of duds.

On the genetic side, and I'm certainly not a specialist in the field, there are also some viable alternate scenarios that that could account for said alleged observations. The first thing that comes to mind, is the fact that there are millions, if not billions, of bits of genetic code that are responsible for creating a ball python. You are focusing all of your attention on the one mutant bit of code responsible for the Desert trait, while ignoring all of the rest! When you realize that the two lines of Deserts each separately originated from single founding animals, you can see how one line could easily suffer from a genetic anomaly that the other does not. You make BIG assumptions, and yes, by jumping way ahead, and not merely presenting an observation, but quickly arriving at your own, probably very bias conclusion, you threaten to unnecessarily hurt a wonderful project... and lots of people.

I, for one, am disgusted by your cowardice. Such an attack, made without the courage to stand up and be accountable is pathetic at best. I'm wondering, if we knew who you are, might we also know the reason why you are so passionate about this cause? Do I sense a grudge?

Dan Wolfe

You may have nailed it right on the head Dan, this guy could be Mr. T.

Very very clever T!
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

So is Mr. T throwing punches from the sidelines, afraid and too old to actually get in the ring?

I'll get in the ring if I'm fighting a scrawny female Desert. The males are much too tough for me I think.

Is that you?
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

I just got word that it is not Dan Reed. Hmmm, I am not sure who this anonymous hero is...

Sorry for thinking out loud on your name Dan, my apologies.
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

I'm just waiting for the egomaniac to show up. This thread should get real interesting then. He might be able to give some good insight also, if anyone could get him to talk about it.

Everyone,

Just to be clear, Dan Reed's name should have never come up in this thread.
Dan has been a long time fixture in the herp world, and we are sorry for mentioning
his name as someone who could write such nonsense.

Enough of this name guessing game.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I doubt you guys really care at this point, but I'm sorry you had to get involved in this mess. It was not an attack on you or PK, you just happen to be one of the big players. If your animals are like Robyn says I would have done the same.

I had my reasons for making this statement and my reasons were not at all sinister like they may seem to some.

If you dont mind me asking for the "truth" from an obviouslly "truthful", unidentified individual. How many Desserts do you personally own? Not how many does your friends collectivley own or how many have you seen in pictures, or in person, or at shows. How many are sitting at home in your personal care right now, that you have raised from babies or purchased with size?

I dont care how many friends i have that are breeders and how many morphs ive seen, held, cleaned, fed.... If they are not sitting in my collection, i am not about to open my mouth and announce my opinion to the public. If you are not there working with them everyday in your own home, please dont speak on others behalfs. Im not coming on here to tell you that you are wrong, cause i do not own any Desserts, but i find it highly offensive that you are bashing Robyn for no reason other then stating what is the TRUTH for them and there snakes. Pictures were posted, PEs point is proven.

If you in deed own "hundreds" of skinny, unhealthy female desserts that dont produce year after year, then i am very sorry to hear about your loss with this amazing morph. Maybe if you purchase one from Robyn youll have better luck in your breeding seasons to come.

Thats my rank....
Good luck everyone...
Kim

All jokes aside, I wonder when someone will name a new morph the 'Dessert Ball'...??

Imagine the combos!...

Caramel Dessert

Chocolate Dessert

Vanilla Dessert

Candy Dessert

Toffee Dessert

Cinnamon Dessert

Spider Dessert

Okay, the last one doesn't have the same luster.

Anyways, just some musings from a spectator.

Back to the task at hand. *grabs popcorn*

BB

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"Have you hugged your drummer today?" --- Me

Share!

Seriously, if I had the money, I would go buy a Desert female just out of curiousity. I never got into this to make a profit, so a non-breeding female would only be a minor set-back. So no need to take this too seriously.
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.1 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 Whitesided P. catenifer sayi, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

that's a brilliant idea, I sure wish I had thought of that...
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

Great post. Haha.

Mmmmmm, spider dessert.....

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You might be a ball python fanatic if you subconsciously convert the price of virtually everything in to units of piebald ball pythons

Are those Funnel Web Spiders? *full body shiver*

Ironically though, I do love crab. Hmmm....
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.1 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 Whitesided P. catenifer sayi, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

I know who he is and he's a good guy. He has understandably bashed me though.

I will ask Robyn this question though.

Robyn, are you 100% sure that I am wrong about female Deserts producing? Sure, you may have a few larger animals, but do they look exactly like your other female balls, or are they skinnier and long? Do all your older female Deserts look like a normal female ball, or are they as I say?

The reason for this thread was because I had friends buying them, yet I could not say anything without them stating they heard it from me.

I know I have backed you into a corner with them, but please answer them so we all know. If the answer to my questions are that all your older female deserts are normal, then we all know you would not lie. If you did people will surely call you out on it in the future.

So please answer the question so I can go away.

Are all your female Deserts 100% normal?

What is your standard for normal?
Every morph can have long, thin females.
This argument of "can you tell me that ALL your female deserts are
"normal" is invalid.

Can you tell me all your female snakes are "normal"?
-----
"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

Give me a break. You know exactly what I'm asking. Every morph does not have long skinny females and you know it. Deserts do. Your response is dumb. Everyone can see what I am asking Robyn.

I'm waiting for his answer. Although now I do need to go, but I'll be back to read it.

"Every morph doesn't have it's skinny females"

Ok...that's why I have a 3 year old normal female that has eaten the same amount as my 2100 gram normal girl, but is 6 inches longer and only 1300 grams. Both have never gone off feed, eat similar meals, and are parasite free.

Some females just grow differently.
-----
"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

I have a feeling this is going to be a "keep moving the goalposts" line of questioning, but ok:

No, our adult (or juvie or babies) Deserts do NOT exhibit the physical traits you describe at all. We don't have a SINGLE ANIMAL that looks anything like what you describe.

Not that you have provided a single piece of evidence of your claims anyway, aside from alluding to the idea that Pete has a bunch (hundreds, right?) of scrawny, sickly animals. That was not cool at all, and I am guessing you didn't actually think too far ahead on this thread, as that is certainly a consequence of your ranting about sickly animals.

We have already posted pics in this thread of a selection of female Desert adults, ones that are breeding now.

Stop your nonsense and post your name, "Big Gunns", nobody is afraid.
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

I couldnt wait to get home and read more. Robyn is and PE is one the most honest and hardcore breeders that know there S*#! I CANT WAIT to buy a desert! I think THE TRUTH needs to turn on the lights in his/her dingy computer room,wipe off the cheeto cheese and grow up. You are ridiculous! Wheres your proof,pics? Get over yourself

I knew it was Big Gunns all along. Gunns, still stirring the pot 5 years later like on Ralphs Forum....WOW..........and you are the only one in Pete's Camp with a bunch of knowledge who would come to the forums with this............Remember the Candy Ball routine on ralphs Board. Just my 2 cents.

Deserts are Great, But Until There is Verifiable Proof of an Adult Female Desert Laying Eggs and them Hatching, Put it to Rest!

They are Still Awesome animals and I will Be buying some Regardless !

Karl Buckler

Robyn...You continue to state this, and so does everyone else with a dog in this fight, BUT... Neither you, nor anyone else has posted or mentioned of any female Deserts/combos over 2000g....lots of females in the 12-1900g range, but Ive never seen or heard of a single one OVER 2000g.

That seems a bit strange to me, and lends some truth to what is being said...

Prove me wrong, anyone...

I forgot to mention this. Why is his/her NAME a secret? You may have posted it, bit I have never seen it anywhere. It's just my curiosity that wants to know.

Really, you have doubts because we have gotten a two year old female over 1500 grams, but not over 2000? Geez, I thought 1500 in two years was a great achievement.

They will be over 2000 grams when they are 3 years old, I suppose. You must have some fast growing balls!
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

Just thinking outlook here.

When you guys bought Stans collection 3 years ago did that not include any female deserts? They should be older then 2 and much bigger. Just a question.
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I never give them hell, I give them the truth and they think it's hell!

If more colubrid guys had balls (pythons) they wouldn't need to lie in police reports.

www.hognosefarm.com

Yes, those were all the undersize ones that didn't like to eat or grow, and led us to wonder if the Desert was a "dwarf". Those females are still small.

But our own PE hatched animals don't lag in any way like that original stock does.
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robyn@proexotics.com

ShipYourReptiles.com
Pro Exotics Reptiles

It would seem if you're telling the truth that I have done you a huge favor with this thread. Since I really don't believe you would lie, that's great news for you.

I will say this though. I never said the animals were sickly. I said they were skinny for a normal female ball python and they have a problem producing. This is a fact, not fiction.

I find it amusing that history has shown that people always kill the messenger when there is news they don't like. Why is that I wonder? A good reason to stay out of sight don't youall think?.

It's also very amusing that you keep assuming I'm Big Guns. In all the time I have known the egomaniac that is starved for attention. I have never known him to stay anonymous. He wants everyone to know it's him.

I guess he's either loving all this attention, or he's really ticked off. I guess it depends on what his relationship is with Pro Exotics and PK Reptiles. If it's the second I think I'll be fixin to dig deep into my fox hole. I don't need his non stop ranting about me.

Good luck to you Robyn. It seems you have straightened everyone out if your animals are like you say. I suspect you should have some good breeding results this year. Let us/you hope so anyway.

One last thing. I'm not sure why everyone thinks I'm attacking PK or PE. I was only stating what I know to be 100% fact. People seem more fixated on who I am than the message I brought youall. Then again, now knowing who you think I am, it's perfectly understandable. Even though I must say when it comes to things like this, I have never seen egomaniac tell anyone anything.

I wish everyone a good breeding year. This should die down until about July I would say.

Robyn and Chad both answered your question! You're just not getting the answer you wanted!

...

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www.jasonrbartolettreptiles.webs.com

Send me your desert females, and within 4 years I will provide you with empirical evidence. I'll even foster those females for free for the four years, and maybe hook you up with a possible het albino for your trouble....

Never seen a desert in person, but PE's stuff always wows me. And I hold Dan Wolfe in the highest regard among breeders, so you know who's side I am on.

Signed,

Charlie Sheen
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Matt Buchanan

Maximum Overdrive was an awesome movie. Oh wait, that was Emilio.......

Seriously.... Mr. T, what does Chad and PE have to lose? You're kidding right? Pro Exotics have been honest throughout this process. They haven't had success producing from female deserts, and they have admitted to that. They haven't lied to customers, and they provide solid evidence that their female deserts do IN FACT grow to be healthy maternal size once they produced and raised their own females. Any large importer and exporter of ball pythons will tell you that BP's vary in size in different locales. The deserts may in fact be one of those smaller sub-species, but that won't determine fertility. Importers will also tell you how difficult it is for wild caught animals to adapt in captivity, albeit poor conditions, until Chad purchased them. Just wait till these deserts start breeding into the larger sub-saharan ball pythons, I bet we start seeing some big, fast growing females in the future.

I wish Chad and Pro Exotics all the best this year with this project. True professionals over there. As for Mr. Anonymous, sorry about your misfortunes buddy.

-Brant Rustich

Major League Reptiles

I guess it's possible that it can be bred out of them. I will say that all those females I saw were not all from one animal though so maybe not. It's worth a try for the people involved.

As for my misfortunes. I can live with telling the truth and people not accepting it.

So if these females in question don't breed in 3 years they are duds. That is a joke truth. I have ball pythons that aproaching 20 years of age and still going strong , raised here from baby imports before the craze because I thought they were cool then not cause of the morphs.
Many females will produce that early many will need longer to reach full sexual maturity.
Your a joke gumms LOL

It's been longer than 3 years. You could be right. It may take them 8 years I don't know. Is that good news though?

Awww.. Did you post a pic of a normal or something, and nobody commented? I think you are a nobody that is trying to get some attention. You see all these people posting caloco spinnerblasts, and what nots, with 4,5,6,7,8 gene combos, and then you post a normal, and no one pays you any attention. I myself is a nobody, but I have been to enough tinley park shows, and internet forums to say that I "know" kevin mcurly, ralph davis, pete kahl, brian barchyc, the southerlands, ect.ect.ect....

The reason you can't tell us who you are is because if you were to tell us...we would ALL be like......WHO?...haha.

I think you have a couple of normals, and a desert. You spent all of your money on a desert before you knew how to give proper care to a ball python. I have a skinny spider, but that is because he got sick just before the breeding season. I have a skinny albino, but that is because he is a finniky eater. Learn how to properly care for a ball python, and ONLY THEN buy an expensive morph.

Sorry about the spelling, but I don't feel that this thread is really worth it to me..lol.
If I spelled your name wrong, please accept my apologies.

Matt,
M&M Reptiles

You got me Matt. I will say that's an impressive list of misspelled names. I have to ask though. Do they know you? Somehow I doubt it.

Unless something new comes up there is really no reason to beat this horse any more. I'm sure I'll still get attacked by all the hero worshipers and the people with a dog in this race, but I can live with that.

Everyone can now make up their own mind on what they are going to do with their hard earned cash.

So the truth, just how well do you know Stan Chiras ? Ever been to his place ? Saw any of his snakes ?

Maybe I flew into his place in South Florida. Maybe I went to a dog show with him when he moved. Maybe I did a lot of things with Stan. Maybe the only reason you are asking is to narrow down the possibilities of who I may be. Nice try.

I dont care who you are and I dont think you know Stan that well either.Some people just throw names around to impress others.

So I guess I should try and prove to you how well I know Stan just to try and narrow it down for you? Again, nice try.

Again I dont care who you are,we will find out soon enough if you are correct or not.It is hard for me to believe you after seeing the pictures of nice robust females.

Spent a good half hour reading this thread and have a few comments.

First: its the most amusing thread I have read in awhile...some unknown claims a certain breed/morph of ball pythons has negative features (ie skinny, doesn't produce well) but has no true facts to back up, just alot of type.

Second: Robyn's deserts look a good weight for their size/age and being only 2 years old, I am not surprised he hasn't had any eggs from them...Most books I have read and care sheets about ball pythons recommend females to be at least two years old before being bred with three or older being better. Too many breeders, both big and small, rush their snakes into breeding...just because they can produce eggs in their second summer, doesn't mean its good for them to do so or their yields are best. From most posts I have looked through in this forum year after year..I have noticed larger clutches with higher hatch rates come from females who are over 3 years old.

I can understand people who buy high end morphs, spending a lot of money will want to breed a year sooner...to get their money back asap, even if they just get 2-3 eggs to hatch...instead of maybe twice as much if they wait another year. Competition in the 'ball game' to produce the next new morph or combination, certainly pushes rushing the snakes.

Personally, I rather wait an extra year or two, and feed snakes on a more sedate feeding schedule. But that is me and I haven't successfully bred my ball pythons (when I had some that is)....though the reason was because the 'female' I thought I Had and tried to breed to a proven male pastel...turned out to be a male too...

Third Point: The 'big breeders' have no say over which posts are pulled from Kingsnake.com or any of the online hobbyist sites, that is determined by moderators who (to my knowledge as I don't know them all personally...but among the reptile ones I have met) are not big breeders. Posts are pulled if they do not comply with the Terms of Service, the rules for having the privilege of posting here. This is a private website, all posters are here by the site's owners/moderators discretion. Violating TOS will result in posts being pulled, temporary or permanent bans, on a case by case basis.

Everybody who creates an account must accept and abide by the TOS...its part of the registration process...by agreeing to it, you are expected to follow the TOS...if not, then measures will be taken as indicated above.

Note: the term 'You' does nor refer to anybody in particular, just all posters in general.

Fourth Point: In the past, breeders have posted negative traits of morphs and have not been torn apart over it. I don't know who was first in posting the spider wobble issue...whether it was present in the first spider taken from the wild, or came to light in subsequent breedings..but spiders are well documented here as having a head wobble.

Fifth Point: Debate is more than welcome in these forums, just remember the TOS. However it is strongly suggested if you are going to make a claim, back it up with some form of proof...pictures and videos are both acceptable methods. Afterall, anybody can create an anonymous account and state a claim...

Hmm thought I had another point but I think I said all I wanted to say about this thread.
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PHLdyPayne

Forum Princess

ok I read this whole thread, do I get a free desert? Dan if you'de like to include one with my male firefly later this month I would be most appreciative =D. As a neutral party here I'de be glad to be a contributing member to the study of this morph if anyone else would care to share a desert with me. I will offer it a good clean home for many years. remember strength in numbers
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1.0 enchi 0.1 bumblebee 0.1 mojave 0.1 butter pastel

You can't breed (hidden gene) woma to (hidden gene) woma, or you will produce the lethal super woma. People still buy hidden gene womas, and they are still loved all over the hobby. I will ALWAYS love desserts! Maybe, someone just discovered that there is a dwarf ball python morph now???? I don't know....maybe...

disappeared? Never mind, I already know why. Hopefully enough people read what I said to help them. Good luck everyone.

Has anyone mentioned the problem with Mimosas yet? Doubt anyone would believe that either, so I'll leave it at that.

BZGunns totally agrees with you truth. I mean why would they just not let you throw people under the bus with zero proof, or your name. BZGunns thinks that is so not cool...... Ya and I can't believe that people don't know that mimosas just get better and better looking! Just wait till they here the the truth about Candies! BZGunns is excited about that one!

Im a nobody in this buisness. I dont know any of the big breeders in person. Ive met them at shows or i took a trip and visited their facility, or things like that. Ive talked to Robyn on the phone a couple times and on facebook. But im not someone he is going to remember, out of the thousands of calls and emails and messages he gets. Also I do not own a desert, thats out of my price range. I have only seen 1 in person. So I have no risk in this at all. I dont care who TheTruth is thats not important either. Im just giving my unbiased opinion about this thread. Personally I think it should be dropped, and people should make their own opinion. Wether or not they invest in deserts. In this hobby/buisness this stuff comes up all the time, and its always a mile long thread. Spiders,caramels and hidden gene womas all went thru it. And people still buy them. As for deserts, I have heard several different things about them. Both good and bad. I have heard females cant lay eggs at all. Ive heard of 4 people getting eggs from female deserts as well. Ive also heard its only desert to desert breedings that are infertile. Then ive heard they are skinny. Then people post pics of fat females. People could argue that two males locked up and you took a pic of that. It does happen all the time. People are going to believe whatever they want. I have one friend bought a male desert ball, heard this about females, and is trying to sell it for less than he paid for it. He doesnt want to take the chance. I have other friends who have desert females, and combos and are sticking with it. So its a matter of opinion. As for my opinion on robyn lying about his snakes I think thats crap. My personal experience with robyn and PE has been amazing. When I called robyn on the phone the first time, I was driving a truck and was in Colorado unannounced. I gave him no warning, and asked if it would be any trouble for me to come check out the breeding facility? Robyn told me he couldnt be there, but that it was no problem. He had someone meet me at the door and let me in. They let me see whatever I wanted. The place was spotless. All the animals were healthy. They were willing to open tubs show me anything I wanted to see and to take pics. Everytime ive emailed PE or bought anything its been a perfect experience. Thats my experience. So I dont think they are lying about anything. Robyn openly admitted they have never gotten a clutch from a female desert yet. That its a new project. So they personally cant say what the female deserts will do. But more than one person on this thread has posted pics of fat females locked up. So the thin thing has been disproven. As for wether or not deserts can lay fertile eggs. No one has shown proof they can lay eggs, but no one has shown definitive proof they cant lay either. Ive heard of 4 fertile clutches being laid from deserts and hatching. But have never seen it. I think we should have all ended this thread on Robyns first statement. This is a new project and left it at that. Until someone can produce evidence either way. Appearently if all these people are posting these pics of fat females locking up this season. And PE is posting pics of fat females locking up. There will be pics and youtube videos coming very soon with the answer. Theres no need to talk trash in the mean time .
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Kevin Harrison
Too many pythons and boas to count